Bush tearing apart protection for America's wilderness

I think your logic might be slightly flawed on this one... I compared that statement to someone arguing the brain is the real problem in brain cancer... don't bother going after the cancer, just cut everyone's brain out, it'll never happen again.

The trees aren't the cause of wildfires, the fire is. It's the trees we're trying to save from the fire. So... stop saving the trees from the fire, just eliminate them so we have nothing to protect?

No, trees are kind of a vital part of being able to breathe. I happen to enjoy breathing.


As for Bush's policies... at least his war on education, nature, and civil rights is going well.

Oh yes pollution that beautiful brown and yellow haze . Sunsets threw the haze make for a nice yellow glow in the evening .

And that wonderful smell of natural gas and crude oil when you step out on your front porch. And the rhythmic thump of pump jacks (well pumping device )

I didnt really like looking at any of those mountain ranges 30 miles from town any how . And those bluffs south of town less than 5 mile away always in a deep haze they were just a eye sore any how . Some days 8 blocks of distance away gets hazy .

Sound like LA, Chicago or New York ? NO

A small town in the west less than 70.000 people the whole county has 150,000 people in a county 85 X 100 miles in New Mexico population density is sparse .

About 10 years ago you could see those ranges we had a visibility of 100 + miles clean air . The only time you smelled crude oil or natural gas is when you were near a location .

We have oil and gas wells and coal fired electric plants with more units put online and expansion in the oil patch . We just reached EPA Ozone restrictions due to the high ozone . We added 25,000 people in 10 years and about every half a mile is a gas or oil well where before it was 5 miles between them. And plans for another coal fired power plant .

Many people here joke we are a national ecological sacrifice area to the GOD of energy .

This has happened in 10 years with environmental controls it scares me to see whats going to happen with out tight controls . You want more coal fired plants you come live with them for a while or put them in your back yard . Let a oil company drill literally in your back yard . There are now 5 with in 1/2 mile of home one is a few yards off the back fence .

Please clean them up we need the energy but not the destruction of our air and our environment whats the use of energy if we cant breath or see any of our beautiful American west .

With all this open spaces and sun on average of 300 days a year why not put some solar or wind power up ?

the retardation of some people astound me.

i hope you all get what you want, devastated forests, dead zones in all waters surrounding the US, toxic waste in your water and acres and acres of strip mined lands to gaze at in beauty

people place the term tree hugger on the same plane as communist or nazi like its something to be ashamed of.

i love people.

reply to post by jsobecky

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Again you are totally wrong... I am favor of responsible business not business at all costs.

reply to post by grover

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Yet you have not show how extracting shale oil would be irresponsible business. It seems like you are running on your emotions.

reply to post by BluegrassRevolutionary

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Wow. Bush has been President for the last 8 years and you cannot think of a single thing he has done right.

That is statiscally phenomenal.

But I will take you up on your challenge.

reply to post by jsobecky

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Now, how should I begin to answer this paragraph, since you opened it with an antagonistic "People like all of you" statement? The remaninder of it is a continuation of your antagonistic attitude, so how should one answer you?

Is this an example of your lol "open-minded" character?




Did I ever say we would? This is one of the cliches parroted by the liberals.



Woulda, coulda, shoulda. All of course your opinion only. And the fault of both parties, since both overwhelmingly voted for the war.

Of course, I expect your retort to be another parrot-clack: "Bush lied! People died!".



Who's talking about "ruining the environment"? Only uneducated, hyper, sensationalistic tree huggers, that's who.



You are obviously not a student of history. Study FDR, Lincoln, and others.

I think your confusion is a result of your lack of understanding of the political process.



Do you realize how silly you sound?



I'm calling bullcrap on this one. And I want you to prove this allegation.



I live by my own power of reasoning. I do not follow the Pied Pipers of our time.



Examples, please, instead of hysterical statements.



[edit on 22-11-2008 by jsobecky]

reply to post by jsobecky

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Very simple Js, just picture a nation with not regulatory environmental laws here in the US, oil is dirty business and if in developing countries is not regards for safety, human rights and respect for the land, well it doesn't take a genius to imagine what our nations pristine lands will be turned into just for profits and greed and if you think that this is to make the nation more sustainable on its own resources you are for a great surprises, because when profits are to be made corruption always set its roots first and screw the people.

Look what greed has done already to our nations economy can you Imagine if it takes hold of our lands?

Is not money to make profits when is regulations protecting the land and human habitation.

reply to post by marg6043

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marg, first of all, I wish you would let the fellow answer the questions himself.

Second, why do you say that we will become a nation of no environmental regulations if we explore in pristine areas?

That is fear-mongering without any facts. We have come a long way in the past 50 years in protecting and reclaiming areas where we work.

I'm still astonished, that people still, are defending Bush and his administration. In the last 8 years, he has brought 2008(right now) backwards in everyway possible and much worse than anytime before his predisency if that makes sense, however you look at it. There is no progression, completion, achievement, success and satisfaction to look back on.

Does greed be the greatest of achievement for one man? is it that outlandish? Is greed the ultimate goal? Does it hold true power? Does it represent humanity? When other's suffer over greed, do we feel truly better?

The Bush administration, do they represent greed, why would one, defend the greed of another?

Like what does it take to be against Bush and his administration these days if a crumbling economy isn't enough to convince your mind or YOU losing your money out of your pocket's. Nobody feels geniuinely optimistic or happy right now. I don't think the people denying these feelings, truly think they are happy either. Government's have taken the extreme case, went as far as they could with corruption, to every chance they took, brought as much terror and fear, that no "terrorist" could have achieved and now we are here to suffer the consquences of it all, and now face a global meltdown.

DO SOME PEOPLE NOT OPEN THEIR EYES AND SEE THE WORLD RIGHT NOW?
DO PEOPLE REFLECT?
DO PEOPLE QUESTIONS WHAT ACTUALLY GOING ON AROUND THEM?
DO PEOPLE EVER DICERN TO WHATS GOING ON RIGHT NOW?
DO PEOPLE EVER WONDER WHATS HAPPENING TO THEM IN THIS MOMENT
DO PEOPLE EVER WONDER WHAT THEIR THOUGHTS REFLECT
DO PEOPLE EVER WONDER WHAT THEY DO TO OTHERS
AND DO PEOPLE EVER WONDER WHAT THEY DO TO YOU?


There are still million's of American's that still need to wake the f*** up. The world has reached rock bottom! People are are feeling the pinch, but why are some being ignorant of this. Why are pretend it's not reality?I want to know why?

This madness,
Is all because of "greed of one over others". Just this time, greed has taken complete control to the point, the rest of the world is suffering the brunt of these actions, the ill demands of the riches of this planet over the pure and innocent. The ripple effect has just got so deep. Now we are feeling the waves. Back to the same problem we've had throughout history. Are we going to learn this time around, who knows? But the reality is now, are we going to change for the better?

There is alot wrong with this world. We can't fix it all obviously. But It needs change, and it needs change NOW. We need to get back on our feet and take responsibity for what we do to ourselves and what we do to other's. Each of us, create the reality we live in the present moment. Do we want this greed and war?


The extremity of the last 8 years is just disgusting.
In my life, time, I've witnessed over a million Iraqs killed, and thousands more in other countries because of the Bush administration. There were no terrorist's. They were the CIA trained terrorists, nothing else. they were no bad guys. The only bad guys are the one sitting in the Whitehouse. The only interest's they have, is for themselves and to hell with the innocent's that died over the eight years. To hell with the rest of the world, to hell with the poor, to hell with the clean air, to hell with the environment, to hell with our neighbouring countries and the last thing they would say, to hell with you.


It's painfully horrid. It's absurd, and right now, I feel ashamed to be a human being. The world has turned upside down and it's a long time coming. All because of ego and greed.


NOW the rest of the ignorant ones, better want to wake up to that fact


But on a positive note I'm sitting here and glad to say the illuminati, "powers of be" and federal reserves etc are also crumbling, just as I predicted they would

I mean without us and our lives, they are nothing, they are everything they are today, because of those who gave their power to them. Just a bit of wisdom to those who are wailing with their gold and oil right now, You might learn hidden meaning in that. Right now, what are you going to do, when you have all that money and riches? What would you do if your George Bush senior with all his money if the rest of humanity was perished, would all that greed further your life accomplishment's when no one else is around for all this you have? Sitting in your Sprawling mansion smoking a cigar, all that riches, and others are gone for it? Is this life today? Our goal to be rich and shallow, and for what?

what would you do with this material wealth, when you leave this world where will you take it?..............

Wake up world.



[edit on 22-11-2008 by mind is the universe]

[edit on 22-11-2008 by mind is the universe]

Arguing, Internet, Special Olympics, etc....

So which is it, guys? Do 'The Powers that Be' (ooh, scary name..) want to destroy our environment or kill billions of people to preserve the forests, Codex Alimentarius style? Whichever happens to be the fearmongering flavor of the month, I guess.

reply to post by jsobecky

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Look into it Josbecky... shale oil extraction is the dirtiest oil extraction in the business.

reply to post by jsobecky

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I been realistic Js, me like you would love to be living in a nation that can use its resources for the well being of the nation and its citizens, but our nation is not for the citizens anymore, is a nation that is ruled by a corporate government.

Capitalism in America is synonymous of greed and corruption, just look at the mess we have already due to that same problem.

The only way that digging for oil in America can become profitable is if environmental regulations become lax or none existent

While many here are claiming and screaming for more use of natural resources they will have a change of hart if environmental laws are forgotten and oil spills into their drinking water and starts to get too close to their homes, families and children.

See, one thing is to want something and another to see the devastating results of that desire.

Josbecky is a true believer marg... you are not going to change his mind even if you duct tape his forehead with all the statistics and data in the world... its a kind of blindness.

The thing is that you can have growth for growth's sake with little regard of the consequences or you can have intelligent growth.

Having little regard for the consequences, be they environmental, or cultural is the path of quick and easy profits but it lacks social responsibility... but intelligent growth is a growth approach that by its very nature looks at the long haul.

I personally would put my money on intelligent growth any day.

The thing is that we as a nation are not just an aggregate of business concerns but a society composed of individuals... if we want to see what results growth with no concern for the outcome looks like and what an impact it has on society... just look at the nations of the former soviet bloc or China today.

Who wants to live in an industrial wasteland?

[edit on 22-11-2008 by grover]

Well, somebody has to be the dirtiest, don't they? That in itself is not a reason to abandon the technology.

I have faith in our engineering and scientific abilities. We can solve any problem.

Intelligent growth does not look at what is now, and make every decision based upon today's technology.

True intelligent technology looks at what can be, and works toward that goal.

[edit on 22-11-2008 by jsobecky]

I am sorry Josbecky but that is incredibly naive.

Look at nuclear power as an example. If we had listened to the alarmists, we would never have known the true capabilities of that science.

Today, mini-reactors power submarines and are planned for growth of underdeveloped nations.

You sound like a reactionary, grover. One of the old time witch doctors that frightened people around the campfire.

You can either work with us, and help us progress, or stay stuck in the past. You will lose, if the latter is your choice.

I thought liberals called themselves "progressive"??!!

I know right, it astounds me as well. I mean, one would think that after eight years he could have mustered up the ability to do at least one thing right. However, I am at a loss as to what that would be. Even when I think of something he did that was good, the negative side effects associated with that good thing completely outweigh any benefits.



Well, I do apologize for my "antagonistic attitude." However, if after the last eight years you had wanted to puke every time you turned on the news, you too would be a bit antagonistic.




Well, you at the very least implied it with your statement that Bush needed to pass these laws so that we would one day achieve energy independence. You also mentioned drilling as one of the two ways that we would achieve this independence. Therefore, I thought it was reasonable to inform you that drilling will never make us energy independent.



You are correct that my statement is only a hypothesis. However, given that the cost of the war is currently more that $600 Billion, I think it was a pretty fair statement. On a side note, I have never used your "parrot-clack." It seems to kind of minimize the effects of Bush's lies to me.



You are when you talk about shale oil drilling and clean coal production. Most people who live around coal energy plants, even ones that claim to be clean, would tell you that they are anything but clean. Not to mention that is not even taking into account the methods like mountain top removal used to extract the coal. Also, as other posters have pointed out, shale oil drilling is one of the most environmentally damaging forms of oil extraction.



Well man, I really do not think that I am the one who is confused. The two presidents you listed are consistently ranked in the top ten greatest presidents ever. If you doubt my assertion that Bush has done major damage to the constitution, here is one of many articles that deal with the destruction Bush has left in his wake.

www.washingtontimes.com...



No, not at all. If you had actually looked at the executive orders he is trying to pass, you too would see the one common thread in them all.



Again, try actually doing some research before you "call bullcrap" on something. You could try and start with this ATS thread.

www.abovetopsecret.com...



Yeah, I don't blame you, your "power of reasoning" sure has been correct so far...lol. I guess I too would trust your reasoning power over that of highly trained and educated PhDs who have dedicated their lives and education to the study of history.



Well, given that I have already shown you that Bush wants to relax EPA standards for water radiation levels, that the OP's article stated "working methodically to weaken or reverse an array of regulations that protect America's wilderness from logging or mining operations, and compel factory farms to clean up dangerous waste," and that both of these things would definitely "adversely affect future generations," I do not feel that I really need to give you any further examples. And I also do not think that my statement was "hysterical."

I really do not know what else to say to you. If you have not gotten it by now, I doubt you ever will.

[edit on 22-11-2008 by BluegrassRevolutionary]

As I said in another thread.

You know, I don't care what Bush and Company do as long as the lights turn on, I have gas for my car, money in the bank and food on the table. We don't need to hug the rest of the world or sing kumbaya.

I think if you ask most people they would feel that way. Ask them to give up their cars, lights, tv, iphone, ipod, sat dish, make a lower wage, etc just so someone else in the world can have it better and they would tell you not only no but hell no. They would say the government can help feed the rest of the world as long as I have my toys.

Why don't we all chillout for a while and go hunting
with Sarah Palin. I here the moosies are biting.