Ineresting discussion I had with a Homeland Security agent

Originally posted by manoffewwords
I feel I need to make a comment here, although it does not directly relate to the OP.

Time and again on these boards I have heard talk of the Military being used against the citizenry (sp?). Although, I am not discounting any theory on here, as I don't know exactly what I think. I do think I should clarify some things regarding this.

Riviera

..not all military men are heartless or will follow their commands if they believe it's against their morals and hell against their own people. As well, not all the Top Brass would fall in line, people as evil as we are, we are also human and that brings a lot of empathy along with it.

I agree.

Now I can't speak for the American military, but I can speak for the Canadian Forces. Not only would many of the scenarios discussed on ATS go against a persons morals, they would be considered illegal for a soldier to carry out such orders.

The Canadian Forces are bound by the "Code of Ethics". Which states among other things, that soldiers are not bound to follow an illegal order, i.e. killing non-combatants (civilians), in fact to follow an illegal order makes you guilty of the crime, regardless if a superior officer ordered it. Even if citizens were rioting, I can not see a situation were deadly force could be justified. Even in Afghanistan we are bound by Rules of Engagement. Which state the procedures for Escalation of Force. First off, we can not shoot an unarmed person, even if we know they are Taliban/Al-queda. The only time we can immediately return fire is if our lifes are directly threatened. So a rioting civilian running at us with, maybe a golf club, is not life threatening. Secondly there is another rule called "Proportional Force", meaning if someone is hurling rocks at me, I do not hurl Grenades back. You use only the neccesary force to end the situation.

In other words, rioting citizens, would probably not represent a life threatening scenario, a dangerous one no doubt, but life threatening?

Ultimately, I just don't see soldiers complying with any order to delibrately end civilian lives, especially their own countrymen. I am sure that their would be a few, but these are just psychos, who would be happy to kill for any reason, military or not.

Just my 2 cents.

And if the homeland security agents follow the same moral code oath that regular police do they wouldn't either. Their job is to protect the community etc. I don't remember the pledge/oath right now but if anyone is interested I can get it from my criminal justice notes later today oh and along with my other police ethic notes as well.

[edit on 22-11-2008 by LittlePinky82]

Originally posted by SHNIPE

Originally posted by DocMoreau
The 'See ID' on the back of the credit card makes this feel a bit weird.

He created a situation that enabled him to show you those IDs. He could have paid cash. He could have shown you a driver's license, which is what "he should have done".

In fact, SEE ID is "not legal" per se.
usa.visa.com...

If the card has a “See ID” in place of a signature…



Request a signature. Ask the cardholder to sign the card and provide current government identification, such as a driver's license or passport (if local law permits).
Check the signature. Be sure that the signature on the card matches the one on the transaction receipt and the additional identification.
If the signatures appear reasonably the same and the authorization request is approved, go ahead and complete the transaction.

I have a gut feeling that you were a victim of some sort of fraud or social engineering. You felt compelled to give a ton of information because he was so casual with his clearances, past experiences and such.

Social_engineering_(security)

Perhaps he was really with Homeland Security, or maybe he was using a stolen credit card. But something about the guy, and the experience screams at me. I am just not sure what it is....


[edit on 21/11/2008 by DocMoreau]

On November 3rd we had approximately 150 Homeland Security Agents staying at our hotel. I was manager on the day they all arrived (11/1 and 11/2) and the majority of them used their govt credit cards for payment but if I had to estimate the remainder that used their PERSONAL cards and had SEE ID written on them i would say it was near 75-80% of the ones i checked in (while that ended up only being 7-10 that i personally checked in using personal credit as payment it still is a higher number than average travelers) ALSO showed their govt ID. I unfortunately didnt get any insight into the coming years as they were all there to protect McCain/Palin. Might have been different if I worked a hotel in Chicago

I would say they were probably using their government discounts since they were probably their on government business if they were there to protect McCain/Palin. If they were there as their individual selves not on government business and time they wouldn't have used that without getting into trouble in some manner at least with an ethical code. If you're in law enforcement you are expected to be held in very high standards ethically because of what you represent and what your badge means.

Originally posted by samuel.iamenski007
reply to post by TheAgentNineteen

 

Regarding credentials (badges), I've had TS, TS/SCI and others over the years and as a matter of policy, the badge stays with me at all times, including at home. So in the context of this individuals badge, to say that nothing of a TS nature can leave a TS environment in incorrect.

Right. My criminal justice professor is a former cop himself and says that majority cops keep their badges with them all the time because technically you're on duty 24/7 even when you're officially not. Sorry for my ignorance but what is TS and SCI?

Originally posted by manoffewwords
reply to post by whiteraven

 

I can't speak much on the National Guard incident. I am aware of the incident, however, I do not know enough details to comment on it. I would hope that the soldiers as well as their superiors were charged and convicted. Were they?

As for your other "Cop rants". Yes I agree these cops unneccesarily took lives, and should be held accountable for that. However, the Taser incident at the Vancouver airport, was not a deliberate attempt to kill someone, only an unfortunate accident. Police are armed with Taser's as a non-lethal option. When the RCMP used it on that man, they did not intend to kill him. And, not that I have any sympathy, the drunk driving situation could be a direct result of the cops involvement in that situation.

With more Taser incidents occuring, it won't be long before you see them banned. There is already much talk about it happening. I speak of Canada here not the States.

I could go on and on but I think my point is made.....

Your examples highlight the bad apples, the psychos that I spoke of. They would kill wether they wore a uniform or not, the uniform just emboldens them with an "above the law" attitude. You do nothing to disprove my post, which talked about the willful mass killings of civilians by the military. So either I don't get your point or you didn't make any, in reference to my statements.

Do you have examples of American/Canadian military or police killing civilians on a large scale? If you do please enlighten me, otherwise your post is just as you say, a "rant" nothing more.

Peace

I don't like tasers either. Personally I think too many people aren't trained properly and over use them etc. I'd rather have pepper spray because at least that comes out with water and doesn't leave marks etc.

Originally posted by Exmar
My 2 cents

I was stationed at Camp Pendelton during the Rodney King Riots. Was on standby to go up there and back up the national guard if things got out of control. Did not go but, we were ready and willing to go. Was 19 at the time and itching for a fight and didn't think (as I should have) about the possibilty of firing on "Fellow Americans", I looked at them as looters, thugs and criminals.

Had a Drill instructor explain to me in great detail the Military command structure. Federal troops ASAF, USA, USN, USMC fall differently in the command structure. Distributed command makes it harder for 1 group to gain control over the entire military during a coup attempt. Worst case scenario, Airforce/Army could end up fighting Marines/Navy. SF troops against regulars, SEALS against Green Beret, Rangers against Recon. National Guard is under command of the Governors of their states. They could end up fighting Federal troops. This almost came to be in Utah long ago when Brigham Young (Yes, the father of Mormons) was Governor and was trying to extort settlers on their way to California.

The most disturbing thing in my mind is the Iraq war. It has, in a way, Federalized the National Guard by deploying them on foreign soil alongside Federal Troops. Governors could have rejected the improper use of their State's troops but, none did. National Guard troops entering New Orleans after Katrina did so with weapons at the ready, they were recently back from deployment in Iraq.

Where does DHS fit in this structure? Who are they loyal too? And even more disturbing, where will Obama's volunteer corps fit into the structure? Equal authority to Federal troops? Superior? Congressional approval required to activate them? Does Obama see something coming and taking extreme action in an effort to protect us or is he apart of it? Patriot Act expanded Secret Service authority, former head of Secret Service now heads the Border Patrol.

Very, Very Disturbing to a simple Marine like me.
I guess the Black SUV's are going to come for me now. Fk it.

Well I guess federal troops are still held accountable to their government and everything for the most part is open etc. What I find scary is groups like Blackwater which basically are malitias. Especially when they're admitted rightwing Christian fundies. Well last I heard Obama is against the Patriot Act and for amending it to where it's back to the Constitution. He did teach Constitutional law at Harvard and was on the Harvard law review so... Now when all this becomes private then I know I'll worry. Same thing with these private prisons.

He proceeded to pay for his purchase with his credit card, on the back of which was written "See I.D.", so as I always do, I asked for his I.D. He pulls out his government I.D. and badge, lays it on the counter and said "That one there is Top Secret"

IMO....this story is either made up or the guy was pulling your leg, but im leaning towards the first.

There is no "top secret" ID card or badge. People are issued that clearance, but no physical ID card is given that is just for "secret" or just for "top secret".

And no agent is going to say what he said.

Just dont buy it, at all.


*****

As far as the "ask for ID" on the card....all my debit/credit cards are signed - but they also have written on it "ask for ID". Id say half the time the retailers ask for it, half the time they dont. It pisses me off when they dont.



[edit on 11/22/2008 by greeneyedleo]

My God people did you all miss the part where I said the top secret thing was idle banter and in jest? How about the part where the guy just got transferred from out of state? Would you think a federal ID would go a little farther in proving you are who you say you are than an ID from another state? What if he hands me his license and I hand it back saying "ok McLovin"? And why the hell would I make something like this up? The point of this thread wasn't to take this guy at face value just because he works for the government, the point is that it was odd to hear him rant the way he did as a government employee.

As far as the "top secret agent" thing goes OMG!!! You make him out to be James freaking Bond. All that was implied was he has Top Secret clearance, not that he's an international man of mystery.

You guys are reading WAAAAYYY too much into this and looking for conspiracies and lies where there are none. I guess thats what I get for posting it here. Maybe next time I'll spin a yarn about singing Kumbaya with some Nibiruganders...Nibiruites...Nibiruans..little green men, while dancing naked around a camp fire in Outer Mongolia. I bet that gets less criticism

A lot people are full of stories, I would not put any credibility to it. If he were real he would not be telling random strangers.

After the Rodney King Riots i talked to LAPD officers and found that over 1500 people were shot during the riots.
They were not shot by the police many were shot by store-owners, people protecting there property, and citizens protecting themself.

The hospitals dutifully recovered the bullets and saved them for evidence along with recording the victims names.

The LAPD checked the criminal records of the victims and threw the bullets of thous that were criminal and gang members in the trash.
they had better things to do then track down people for shooting criminals.

I knew of two ex veterans/construction workers that stayed in there third story apartment and took pot shots at looters coming out of the stores along the street for two days with a .22 rifle.
They claimed to have shot about 15 in the legs.

The cops cared less this was a chance for the public to clean the streets.

I believe that if riots started across the US the gov and the cops would take a hands off approach and let the law abiding public clean out the criminal element.

I believe that the cops and government troops would move in and protect government infrastructure and let the public deal with the criminals.

For this reason i keep a case of .22 cal SSS subsonic ammo for my .22 rifles.
With this ammo in a long barreled rifle i do not need a silencer.
and the rifle is a match grade rifle and i can put a group in a 4 inch circle at 200 feet.

I believe the government agencies like homeland security know that widespread riots in the US would be a prime way to thin the criminal population.

They also believe that in many areas where there are not strict gun laws the public will do the thinning for them.

I know from the training i got as a federal security officer our last last stand was to protect the government property by just shooting rioters.
We would quit arresting them after they had been warned by PA speakers to disperse.

[edit on 23-11-2008 by ANNED]

Hah!
All the homeland security I've ever met seemed like $9 security guards, but with better equipment.
They'd be more likely to kill themselves by accident than kill someone else on purpose.
Hmmm.
Maybes they were fake homeland security - just security guards dressed up, like the empty police cars on the side of the road to freak out speeders etc.

Per DOE, includes images and standard placement of information on the ID Badge. per this derective: www.whitehouse.gov...

PERSONAL IDENTITY VERIFICATION (PIV) OF FEDERAL EMPLOYEES AND CONTRACTORS

www.csrc.nist.gov...

----------

The badge will have one of the follwing letters on it:

Building Access Only (BAO): This access only allows unescorted entry into a HQ facility and/or compound open area(s) and does not authorize access to classified material.


Secret (L): L Access Authorization shall be requested when the duties of the position require access to any of the following:

Confidential Restricted Data
Secret or Confidential Formerly Restricted Data
Secret or Confidential National Security Information
Pre-Employment and Pre-Processing Requirements

Top Secret (Q): Q Access Authorization shall be requested when the duties of the position require access to any of the following:

Top Secret or Secret Restricted Data
Top Secret Formerly Restricted Data
Top Secret National Security Information
Any category or level of classified matter designated as "COMSEC," "CRYPTO" or "Sensitive Compartmented Information"

Ok.
If a person is trained as an agent. I don't care what they do, if it is only deliverying top secret inter office envelopes.
They are not going to get agitated. They are not going to tell you anything.They are trained! and have it pounded in their heads to not say things.
Their jobs ride on it, it is an immediate firing offense.
I know people mostly top to bottom and not one would give.
I know people who work for the government who just have to protect private information or current legal cases and they don't breathe a word.
Much less expose themselves to a person they never met.

Much less telling you they are going to kills someone. This is so bogus.
What kind of store do you work in? He is probably trying to play you forr some discounts and free goodies.





My question to you is this? Did he have a cell phone?

What the DHS is doing is seeking out the risky people. This agent was being humorous because humor is a great way to meet people because not even his ID is TS. He was only joking. However, that DHS agent is only part of the mix of what is out there in our community. I work as an armed guard for the federal government and run into different agents all of the time. There is an old saying that nobody ever leaves Military Intelligence. I've known tv reporters and print reporters who spied for military intelligence because of their pasts in the military.

It isn't a crime or a sin to provide intelligence to the military. Our US Northern Command is here to protect us. As a retired Colonel friend of mine said to me recently, "Do you really want to leave our counter terrorist program in the hands of the same people who f---ed up the Katrina fiasco? Too much is at risk!"

From what I learn in my job on a day-to-day basis is that we are in grave danger and although there are an awful lot of nice Muslims out there there is also a radical element that wants to kill all of us. It is a fact of life which hangs over us the same way nuclear war hung over the heads of us who grew up in the 1950's. Our enemy is here among us, so are our White Knights.

reply to post by nixie_nox


No clue.

The slogan for this forum should be changed to Deny Everything. Why is it so hard to believe that a guy (and thats all he was, was a guy, agent or no) might go on a rant about the current state of affairs in this country. What does being a DHS agent have to do with anything other than his profession. He wasn't driving a black unmarked SUV nor was he wearing a black suit. He wasn't anyone out of the ordinary, just another cop. And for Christ's sake, one more time, the killing people remark was a joke.

I guess that common consensus by those of you who are truly skeptical of everything, those of you who would deny anything not seen with your own eyes and a majority of that which you did see, those of you who who I like to think of as reverse Chicken Littles (The sky REALLY is falling, and I've told you for years that it is, but when it hits you on the head you ask "why didn't anyone tell me the sky was falling?") or as I like to call you Sheeple, is that all federal employees are automatons brainwashed and programed to do as they're told. God forbid someone has an insight into what the future may hold. Don't deny that, don't even try. Keep believing what "They" say is happening, don't heed the warnings that are all about you, and when the sky does land on you, and the dust settles, the herd will have been thinned.

Maybe it was a setup. Maybe it was a fake badge and ID (Riiight). Maybe someone spent thousands of dollars on high quality false creds so he could save 20 bucks on a $120 item. Or maybe he was just a guy on a Saturday afternoon, out doing some shopping and ran into a helpful salesman who showed some interest in his profession. Believe what you want.

O.K. Rant time is done. I will no longer be replying in this thread to the "Deny Everything" crowd. If some of you still wish to Deny Ignorance and have any questions about the encounter, I'll be reading and will post replies.

reply to post by Supes


Pay no attention to the "experts" here. Most are not experts at all. They are more like the "experts" you find in college who have no real world experience. Those who do, usually post once or twice and are gone. You will be able to tell which is which after a while. They are the ones who have nothing to prove and really don't care what you think about it. The "experts" have ego and want you to admire them and tend to argue and force opinion upon others.

For the record, I have seen FBI agents and police officers show their credentials just to pick up women. This was not for official business. Yes, these were real FBI agents and real police officers. For the "experts" to say that this never happens is naive.

Federal agents aren't supposed to do these things, the US government isn't supposed to be in the illegal drug trade, and Presidents aren't supposed to be naughty getting felated in the White House, either. Congressmen are supposed to be there for the people and not themselves, but guess what, it happens all the time.

I appreciate your story. Try not to take an "expert's" opinion personally. and also.. NEVER feed the trolls.

Welcome to ATS and the awakening.

Originally posted by Supes
My God people did you all miss the part where I said the top secret thing was idle banter and in jest? How about the part where the guy just got transferred from out of state? Would you think a federal ID would go a little farther in proving you are who you say you are than an ID from another state? What if he hands me his license and I hand it back saying "ok McLovin"? And why the hell would I make something like this up? The point of this thread wasn't to take this guy at face value just because he works for the government, the point is that it was odd to hear him rant the way he did as a government employee.

As far as the "top secret agent" thing goes OMG!!! You make him out to be James freaking Bond. All that was implied was he has Top Secret clearance, not that he's an international man of mystery.

You guys are reading WAAAAYYY too much into this and looking for conspiracies and lies where there are none. I guess thats what I get for posting it here. Maybe next time I'll spin a yarn about singing Kumbaya with some Nibiruganders...Nibiruites...Nibiruans..little green men, while dancing naked around a camp fire in Outer Mongolia. I bet that gets less criticism

So you think federal employees don't bitch about their jobs like anyone else? Why is that surprising? Especially with law enforcement and the stress that comes with their job. It makes sense that a law enforcement person would bitch to you since you weren't someone who would tell his superiors. Why would he tell you though he has top security clearance? What's the purpose? To brag?

Originally posted by Supes
reply to post by nixie_nox

 

No clue.

The slogan for this forum should be changed to Deny Everything. Why is it so hard to believe that a guy (and thats all he was, was a guy, agent or no) might go on a rant about the current state of affairs in this country. What does being a DHS agent have to do with anything other than his profession. He wasn't driving a black unmarked SUV nor was he wearing a black suit. He wasn't anyone out of the ordinary, just another cop. And for Christ's sake, one more time, the killing people remark was a joke.

I guess that common consensus by those of you who are truly skeptical of everything, those of you who would deny anything not seen with your own eyes and a majority of that which you did see, those of you who who I like to think of as reverse Chicken Littles (The sky REALLY is falling, and I've told you for years that it is, but when it hits you on the head you ask "why didn't anyone tell me the sky was falling?") or as I like to call you Sheeple, is that all federal employees are automatons brainwashed and programed to do as they're told. God forbid someone has an insight into what the future may hold. Don't deny that, don't even try. Keep believing what "They" say is happening, don't heed the warnings that are all about you, and when the sky does land on you, and the dust settles, the herd will have been thinned.

Maybe it was a setup. Maybe it was a fake badge and ID (Riiight). Maybe someone spent thousands of dollars on high quality false creds so he could save 20 bucks on a $120 item. Or maybe he was just a guy on a Saturday afternoon, out doing some shopping and ran into a helpful salesman who showed some interest in his profession. Believe what you want.

O.K. Rant time is done. I will no longer be replying in this thread to the "Deny Everything" crowd. If some of you still wish to Deny Ignorance and have any questions about the encounter, I'll be reading and will post replies.

So you believe EVERYTHING you read on the internet? If I was to tell you I was an FBI or CIA you would automatically believe me? Hon this is the internet and you provided no type of evidence to your claim. What kind of morons do you think are here?

Originally posted by xman_in_blackx
reply to post by Supes

 

Pay no attention to the "experts" here. Most are not experts at all. They are more like the "experts" you find in college who have no real world experience. Those who do, usually post once or twice and are gone. You will be able to tell which is which after a while. They are the ones who have nothing to prove and really don't care what you think about it. The "experts" have ego and want you to admire them and tend to argue and force opinion upon others.

For the record, I have seen FBI agents and police officers show their credentials just to pick up women. This was not for official business. Yes, these were real FBI agents and real police officers. For the "experts" to say that this never happens is naive.

Federal agents aren't supposed to do these things, the US government isn't supposed to be in the illegal drug trade, and Presidents aren't supposed to be naughty getting felated in the White House, either. Congressmen are supposed to be there for the people and not themselves, but guess what, it happens all the time.

I appreciate your story. Try not to take an "expert's" opinion personally. and also.. NEVER feed the trolls.

Welcome to ATS and the awakening.

So you know every person here intimately offline in the real world? Just because someone happens to be a college student doesn't mean he/she doesn't have "real world" experience? Hardly. I'm not an expert and never claimed to be. Not yet anyways. I am studying criminal justice so this is my profession. I'm still a new student so obviously I don't know everything yet but I know enough to be a skeptic. And as I've already stated: THIS IS THE INTERNET! People can make up all sorts of #. If I was to tell you I was a CIA or FBI agent and provided no sort of proof to you would you believe me? Hardly. When you tell a story like this at least provide some sort of proof a long with the story if you want me to believe you.

Hey Supes,

Thanks, yet again for sharing.

I don't know what actually took place. In all honesty I don't know if it took place. But I'm gonna file it away with some other things I have heard and experienced and when something I directly experience correlates with it I'm gonna remember this post. Thats it. Nothing more. No analysis, no distrust, just thanks for sharing your experience. Keep it up.

Originally posted by LittlePinky82


So you believe EVERYTHING you read on the internet? If I was to tell you I was an FBI or CIA you would automatically believe me? Hon this is the internet and you provided no type of evidence to your claim. What kind of morons do you think are here?

A very special kind of moron that requires coddling and a village to raise.

Nowhere did I say you have to believe everything you read.

So you think federal employees don't bitch about their jobs like anyone else? Why is that surprising? Especially with law enforcement and the stress that comes with their job. It makes sense that a law enforcement person would bitch to you since you weren't someone who would tell his superiors. Why would he tell you though he has top security clearance? What's the purpose? To brag?

I don't? I thought the point of that post was to say that I did. But since you say I don't it has to be true (see previous response). Maybe he was bragging. It happens.

So you know every person here intimately offline in the real world? Just because someone happens to be a college student doesn't mean he/she doesn't have "real world" experience? Hardly. I'm not an expert and never claimed to be. Not yet anyways. I am studying criminal justice so this is my profession. I'm still a new student so obviously I don't know everything yet but I know enough to be a skeptic. And as I've already stated: THIS IS THE INTERNET! People can make up all sorts of #. If I was to tell you I was a CIA or FBI agent and provided no sort of proof to you would you believe me? Hardly. When you tell a story like this at least provide some sort of proof a long with the story if you want me to believe you.

Guess what I studied criminal justice too.and studying it doesn't make it your profession. It doesn't become that till someone pays you to do it.

As far as proof, I didn't get a snapshot of the guy as well as a blood, stool and urine sample so please forgive me, you'll just have to accept me as a credible eyewitness who was shown a badge and ID.

Which brings me back full circle to the point made early in the thread about...aww screw it I'm going to have a few beers.

P.S. Did you see how I responded to 3 posts in one without making multiple posts? it's just good forum etiquette.

Hey Supes, Thanks, yet again for sharing. I don't know what actually took place. In all honesty I don't know if it took place. But I'm gonna file it away with some other things I have heard and experienced and when something I directly experience correlates with it I'm gonna remember this post. Thats it. Nothing more. No analysis, no distrust, just thanks for sharing your experience. Keep it up.

Thanks

P.P.S. Make that 4 replies