Originally posted by manoffewwords
I feel I need to make a comment here, although it does not directly relate to the OP.

Time and again on these boards I have heard talk of the Military being used against the citizenry (sp?). Although, I am not discounting any theory on here, as I don't know exactly what I think. I do think I should clarify some things regarding this.

Riviera

..not all military men are heartless or will follow their commands if they believe it's against their morals and hell against their own people. As well, not all the Top Brass would fall in line, people as evil as we are, we are also human and that brings a lot of empathy along with it.

I agree.

Now I can't speak for the American military, but I can speak for the Canadian Forces. Not only would many of the scenarios discussed on ATS go against a persons morals, they would be considered illegal for a soldier to carry out such orders.

The Canadian Forces are bound by the "Code of Ethics". Which states among other things, that soldiers are not bound to follow an illegal order, i.e. killing non-combatants (civilians), in fact to follow an illegal order makes you guilty of the crime, regardless if a superior officer ordered it. Even if citizens were rioting, I can not see a situation were deadly force could be justified. Even in Afghanistan we are bound by Rules of Engagement. Which state the procedures for Escalation of Force. First off, we can not shoot an unarmed person, even if we know they are Taliban/Al-queda. The only time we can immediately return fire is if our lifes are directly threatened. So a rioting civilian running at us with, maybe a golf club, is not life threatening. Secondly there is another rule called "Proportional Force", meaning if someone is hurling rocks at me, I do not hurl Grenades back. You use only the neccesary force to end the situation.

In other words, rioting citizens, would probably not represent a life threatening scenario, a dangerous one no doubt, but life threatening?

Ultimately, I just don't see soldiers complying with any order to delibrately end civilian lives, especially their own countrymen. I am sure that their would be a few, but these are just psychos, who would be happy to kill for any reason, military or not.

Just my 2 cents.

And if the homeland security agents follow the same moral code oath that regular police do they wouldn't either. Their job is to protect the community etc. I don't remember the pledge/oath right now but if anyone is interested I can get it from my criminal justice notes later today oh and along with my other police ethic notes as well.

[edit on 22-11-2008 by LittlePinky82]

Originally posted by Exmar
My 2 cents

I was stationed at Camp Pendelton during the Rodney King Riots. Was on standby to go up there and back up the national guard if things got out of control. Did not go but, we were ready and willing to go. Was 19 at the time and itching for a fight and didn't think (as I should have) about the possibilty of firing on "Fellow Americans", I looked at them as looters, thugs and criminals.

Had a Drill instructor explain to me in great detail the Military command structure. Federal troops ASAF, USA, USN, USMC fall differently in the command structure. Distributed command makes it harder for 1 group to gain control over the entire military during a coup attempt. Worst case scenario, Airforce/Army could end up fighting Marines/Navy. SF troops against regulars, SEALS against Green Beret, Rangers against Recon. National Guard is under command of the Governors of their states. They could end up fighting Federal troops. This almost came to be in Utah long ago when Brigham Young (Yes, the father of Mormons) was Governor and was trying to extort settlers on their way to California.

The most disturbing thing in my mind is the Iraq war. It has, in a way, Federalized the National Guard by deploying them on foreign soil alongside Federal Troops. Governors could have rejected the improper use of their State's troops but, none did. National Guard troops entering New Orleans after Katrina did so with weapons at the ready, they were recently back from deployment in Iraq.

Where does DHS fit in this structure? Who are they loyal too? And even more disturbing, where will Obama's volunteer corps fit into the structure? Equal authority to Federal troops? Superior? Congressional approval required to activate them? Does Obama see something coming and taking extreme action in an effort to protect us or is he apart of it? Patriot Act expanded Secret Service authority, former head of Secret Service now heads the Border Patrol.

Very, Very Disturbing to a simple Marine like me.
I guess the Black SUV's are going to come for me now. Fk it.

Well I guess federal troops are still held accountable to their government and everything for the most part is open etc. What I find scary is groups like Blackwater which basically are malitias. Especially when they're admitted rightwing Christian fundies. Well last I heard Obama is against the Patriot Act and for amending it to where it's back to the Constitution. He did teach Constitutional law at Harvard and was on the Harvard law review so... Now when all this becomes private then I know I'll worry. Same thing with these private prisons.

He proceeded to pay for his purchase with his credit card, on the back of which was written "See I.D.", so as I always do, I asked for his I.D. He pulls out his government I.D. and badge, lays it on the counter and said "That one there is Top Secret"

IMO....this story is either made up or the guy was pulling your leg, but im leaning towards the first.

There is no "top secret" ID card or badge. People are issued that clearance, but no physical ID card is given that is just for "secret" or just for "top secret".

And no agent is going to say what he said.

Just dont buy it, at all.


*****

As far as the "ask for ID" on the card....all my debit/credit cards are signed - but they also have written on it "ask for ID". Id say half the time the retailers ask for it, half the time they dont. It pisses me off when they dont.



[edit on 11/22/2008 by greeneyedleo]

My God people did you all miss the part where I said the top secret thing was idle banter and in jest? How about the part where the guy just got transferred from out of state? Would you think a federal ID would go a little farther in proving you are who you say you are than an ID from another state? What if he hands me his license and I hand it back saying "ok McLovin"? And why the hell would I make something like this up? The point of this thread wasn't to take this guy at face value just because he works for the government, the point is that it was odd to hear him rant the way he did as a government employee.

As far as the "top secret agent" thing goes OMG!!! You make him out to be James freaking Bond. All that was implied was he has Top Secret clearance, not that he's an international man of mystery.

You guys are reading WAAAAYYY too much into this and looking for conspiracies and lies where there are none. I guess thats what I get for posting it here. Maybe next time I'll spin a yarn about singing Kumbaya with some Nibiruganders...Nibiruites...Nibiruans..little green men, while dancing naked around a camp fire in Outer Mongolia. I bet that gets less criticism

A lot people are full of stories, I would not put any credibility to it. If he were real he would not be telling random strangers.

After the Rodney King Riots i talked to LAPD officers and found that over 1500 people were shot during the riots.
They were not shot by the police many were shot by store-owners, people protecting there property, and citizens protecting themself.

The hospitals dutifully recovered the bullets and saved them for evidence along with recording the victims names.

The LAPD checked the criminal records of the victims and threw the bullets of thous that were criminal and gang members in the trash.
they had better things to do then track down people for shooting criminals.

I knew of two ex veterans/construction workers that stayed in there third story apartment and took pot shots at looters coming out of the stores along the street for two days with a .22 rifle.
They claimed to have shot about 15 in the legs.

The cops cared less this was a chance for the public to clean the streets.

I believe that if riots started across the US the gov and the cops would take a hands off approach and let the law abiding public clean out the criminal element.

I believe that the cops and government troops would move in and protect government infrastructure and let the public deal with the criminals.

For this reason i keep a case of .22 cal SSS subsonic ammo for my .22 rifles.
With this ammo in a long barreled rifle i do not need a silencer.
and the rifle is a match grade rifle and i can put a group in a 4 inch circle at 200 feet.

I believe the government agencies like homeland security know that widespread riots in the US would be a prime way to thin the criminal population.

They also believe that in many areas where there are not strict gun laws the public will do the thinning for them.

I know from the training i got as a federal security officer our last last stand was to protect the government property by just shooting rioters.
We would quit arresting them after they had been warned by PA speakers to disperse.

[edit on 23-11-2008 by ANNED]

Hah!
All the homeland security I've ever met seemed like $9 security guards, but with better equipment.
They'd be more likely to kill themselves by accident than kill someone else on purpose.
Hmmm.
Maybes they were fake homeland security - just security guards dressed up, like the empty police cars on the side of the road to freak out speeders etc.

Ok.
If a person is trained as an agent. I don't care what they do, if it is only deliverying top secret inter office envelopes.
They are not going to get agitated. They are not going to tell you anything.They are trained! and have it pounded in their heads to not say things.
Their jobs ride on it, it is an immediate firing offense.
I know people mostly top to bottom and not one would give.
I know people who work for the government who just have to protect private information or current legal cases and they don't breathe a word.
Much less expose themselves to a person they never met.

Much less telling you they are going to kills someone. This is so bogus.
What kind of store do you work in? He is probably trying to play you forr some discounts and free goodies.





My question to you is this? Did he have a cell phone?

Originally posted by Supes
My God people did you all miss the part where I said the top secret thing was idle banter and in jest? How about the part where the guy just got transferred from out of state? Would you think a federal ID would go a little farther in proving you are who you say you are than an ID from another state? What if he hands me his license and I hand it back saying "ok McLovin"? And why the hell would I make something like this up? The point of this thread wasn't to take this guy at face value just because he works for the government, the point is that it was odd to hear him rant the way he did as a government employee.

As far as the "top secret agent" thing goes OMG!!! You make him out to be James freaking Bond. All that was implied was he has Top Secret clearance, not that he's an international man of mystery.

You guys are reading WAAAAYYY too much into this and looking for conspiracies and lies where there are none. I guess thats what I get for posting it here. Maybe next time I'll spin a yarn about singing Kumbaya with some Nibiruganders...Nibiruites...Nibiruans..little green men, while dancing naked around a camp fire in Outer Mongolia. I bet that gets less criticism

So you think federal employees don't bitch about their jobs like anyone else? Why is that surprising? Especially with law enforcement and the stress that comes with their job. It makes sense that a law enforcement person would bitch to you since you weren't someone who would tell his superiors. Why would he tell you though he has top security clearance? What's the purpose? To brag?

Hey Supes,

Thanks, yet again for sharing.

I don't know what actually took place. In all honesty I don't know if it took place. But I'm gonna file it away with some other things I have heard and experienced and when something I directly experience correlates with it I'm gonna remember this post. Thats it. Nothing more. No analysis, no distrust, just thanks for sharing your experience. Keep it up.

Originally posted by LittlePinky82


So you believe EVERYTHING you read on the internet? If I was to tell you I was an FBI or CIA you would automatically believe me? Hon this is the internet and you provided no type of evidence to your claim. What kind of morons do you think are here?

A very special kind of moron that requires coddling and a village to raise.

Nowhere did I say you have to believe everything you read.

So you think federal employees don't bitch about their jobs like anyone else? Why is that surprising? Especially with law enforcement and the stress that comes with their job. It makes sense that a law enforcement person would bitch to you since you weren't someone who would tell his superiors. Why would he tell you though he has top security clearance? What's the purpose? To brag?

I don't? I thought the point of that post was to say that I did. But since you say I don't it has to be true (see previous response). Maybe he was bragging. It happens.

So you know every person here intimately offline in the real world? Just because someone happens to be a college student doesn't mean he/she doesn't have "real world" experience? Hardly. I'm not an expert and never claimed to be. Not yet anyways. I am studying criminal justice so this is my profession. I'm still a new student so obviously I don't know everything yet but I know enough to be a skeptic. And as I've already stated: THIS IS THE INTERNET! People can make up all sorts of #. If I was to tell you I was a CIA or FBI agent and provided no sort of proof to you would you believe me? Hardly. When you tell a story like this at least provide some sort of proof a long with the story if you want me to believe you.

Guess what I studied criminal justice too.and studying it doesn't make it your profession. It doesn't become that till someone pays you to do it.

As far as proof, I didn't get a snapshot of the guy as well as a blood, stool and urine sample so please forgive me, you'll just have to accept me as a credible eyewitness who was shown a badge and ID.

Which brings me back full circle to the point made early in the thread about...aww screw it I'm going to have a few beers.

P.S. Did you see how I responded to 3 posts in one without making multiple posts? it's just good forum etiquette.

Hey Supes, Thanks, yet again for sharing. I don't know what actually took place. In all honesty I don't know if it took place. But I'm gonna file it away with some other things I have heard and experienced and when something I directly experience correlates with it I'm gonna remember this post. Thats it. Nothing more. No analysis, no distrust, just thanks for sharing your experience. Keep it up.

Thanks

P.P.S. Make that 4 replies