Originally posted by jritzmann
Ok, thats it for me. You're clearly unstable and no uninformed stereotype excuse is beneath you to try and support your guru.

It's not about "supporting my guru", jritzmann.

We could argue back and forth about Greer and all this stuff for weeks - and indeed it has been done, many times.

But meanwhile, subprime bubbles are bursting, credit-card bubbles are bursting, $600T derivatives bubbles are bursting, banks are collapsing, the entire financial system is collapsing, people are buying up guns and ammo at alarming rates....

TIME is a luxury YOU DON'T HAVE.

ALL I really care about at this point is the technologies. ALL I am asking is for ATS to put aside its contempt for and bias against Greer just long enough to see what the New Energy movement actually has. To see if the claims of overunity devices are true or not.

While we all still have an Internet left to discuss it on.

Understand?

Originally posted by GoldenAge
To see if the claims of overunity devices are true or not.

Seeing the previous claims made, and their lack of fruition, what do you put your money on.

reply to post by jritzmann.
I am a bit dissapointed to see you call someone unstable, you know that its the kind of harsh language used against everyday people with many alternative belief systems that really shows intellectual intolerance. We don't need to use that kind of divisive language on here, it doesn't contribute to the work people are doing. That said, its very easy to want to cross verbal swords with people during a heated debate, but we need to hold back from delivering killer blows. Chivalry.

You are correct, I think the poster was naive in his speculation of what abduction is, he may also be vulnerable in the future to Greers hard sell, but its his choice of path, and no matter how frustrating. We have to respect its his choice of how he sees it and where he's going.

Now, I was heavily influenced by a video presentation of Greers ideas on vectoring and group contact with alien craft back in 1996. I spent three years of weekends doing some parts of it. I met Greer twice in Summer time in Wiltshire while sitting out on hills and in crop circles: attempting to obtain communication with non-human intelligences.

Greers ideas were radical at the time, I would say they were the best I had heard up to then, for placing the concept of human-alien communication on a whole new level. I tested many parts of group vectoring, always outside his organisation.

The majority of skywatches ended up as a bit uneventful to say the least. But there were good contacts as well, when we saw craft and even observed them close up. Certainly the kind of group contact work he was advocating was a terrific discipline for starting group contact work. We didn't see the value in paying him, we just got out and did it ourselves.

I think he vastly over-elaborated the contact protocols, and here-in lies the point, its very easy to go a bit overboard when contact with craft is slow. Sitting around in fields and at roadsides with no productive result may push someone to chase other thrills, becoming a guru, releasing outrageous claims, gabbling on about James Bond style secrets and high level diplomacy its all a big temptation, when contacts go flat.


Yet, I still advocate this UFO vectoring, I say it is all about simplicity, look at Dorothy Izat for instance. A very simple communication approach, on occasion she just talks to the sky and the lights appear for her. It took time and trust for this to evolve though. I see the very act of our going out to meet aliens, as crucial to our evolving similar abilities.

Greer was a smart guy when I talked to him, I find it difficult to believe that he would so willfully cripple his own reputation, unless he had very good cause.

Originally posted by Harry Challenger
reply to post by jritzmann.
I am a bit dissapointed to see you call someone unstable, you know that its the kind of harsh language used against everyday people with many alternative belief systems that really shows intellectual intolerance. We don't need to use that kind of divisive language on here, it doesn't contribute to the work people are doing.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, however I'm simply being honest with my feelings. Jeremy, David and I have all had very deep conversations about how "respecting others views" and everyone having a valid "opinion" or "belief", is what has crippled this field from making any headway at all.

When did it in fact, become wrong to call nonsense, nonsense. Sometimes it's B.S. because it is.

Accepting all points of view means no one view gets enough latitude of consideration. There is no progress. No depth. It all becomes marginalized.

You realize what that is? It's apathetic, mindless mediocrity. It's why our children are not getting as good an education as we did. We applaud children who try, the same as those who succeed, rather then push the child who didn't and teach them to accomplish the goal.

When the child applauded for trying, gets out in the real world, he finds it doesn't work that way. You have to succeed, or you're buried. I'm not saying a child should be berated for failure, but he should not be applauded the same as one who succeeded. He should be told it's not ok to fail...and then taught what he did wrong and how to make it work. That instills drive. Giving praise to anyone pass or fail is what's generated the mediocrity in this world, where excellence is pushed down in favor of everyone being valid and everyone's opinions and actions being worth the same weight. No one has anything to lose. Praise holds no pride or worth to some.

The same applies to UFO research, which has taken a severe down turn in the past 5 years. Because now we have to give credence to everyone's views. It never used to be that way. Baseless theories and hair brained ideas would get you ignored in a very quick fashion.

Jeremy and I encountered on another message board, this severe mediocrity. A man posted claiming to be a "time-lord". Another claimed to be an "alien". Jeremy asked why people even responded to these jokers with questions...posts that ran in excess of 10 pages, actually entertaining these buffoons.

"We know it's crap, but everyone likes a good story" said one member. Another attacked us saying "who are you to say what is valid??"

It's absurd. People entertaining sci-fi notions with no evidence suggesting any form of possibility, or rationality.

Because they want a good story.

Because it's all valid.

Because they don't really care, because it's all fun entertainment for them. Because they now drown in mediocrity of a field that no longer weighs evidence, but accepts all points as valid so as not to hurt a frail ego, or demean someone for absolute nonsense.

Now of course in the real world we know these time lords and aliens are really adolescent kids in their underwear on Mom's computer in the basement, going between Paranormal boards, WarCraft and Porn.

In that instance though, they were treated as valid.

And it's wrong. It's debilitating to this field.

And then I see people whine and moan that no one takes the UFO field seriously. They cry and complain when a talk show host calls it "nuts".

One day you'll realize that the "field" if one can even call it that...did it to itself by way of it's "everyone is valid", mediocrity-praising, apathetic attitude.

"There are rules of evidence, and what doesn't pass through that filter has to be discarded." ~Terrance McKenna

And that quote from a man not even truly involved in UFOlogy, but when looking into the field for his own ideas saw a study not willing to abandon it's will to believe, rather then to look long and hard enough to try and understand the anomaly.

And it's because what the hell, everyone is valid.

No. Everyone is not. That my friend, is a fact. To argue that which has shown time and again not to be true, is an effort in futility. Yet the Greer supporters still hold up him as someone "doing good work". Meier supporters hold him up saying "listen to his mission".

Allow mediocrity and ignorance to reign, and we have no one to blame but ourselves. Refuse to accept the apathetic nonsense and truly "deny ignorance" and be vigilant against it, and progress will be made.

If not for answers, then perhaps better questions.

So, I'm afraid I will continue to disappoint you. After 20 long years in this field, I am seeing this study reach a critical mass of nonsense.

I am sick of this enigma being marginalized by garbage and fantasy, and the entertained masses who won't challenge it for fear of the tongue lashes of the apathetic, while the phenomena continues to show itself, and we're too busy entertaining everyone to truly experience it.

It's time to take it back from the edge, or walk away and watch it burn.



[edit on 27-11-2008 by jritzmann]

Originally posted by jritzmann
I am sick of this enigma being marginalized by garbage and fantasy,
and the entertained masses who won't challenge it for
fear of the tongue lashes of the apathetic,
while the phenomena continues to show itself

I think this would make a great new thread....

There is serious stuff going on that demands serious research and I believe that greers early work fell into that serious research camp, and did a tremendous amount for the credibility of ufo and alien research. I give him 5 stars for that...

However he really is badly marginalizing all he has done to the point of ridicule and making himself an unmissible target for being accused of money and power scams....

There maybe incredible stuff going on, some may initially sound totally rediculous - but let us hear about it properly and openly and without the rubbish and theatrics.

I look at these forums to pick out the 1% that matters out of all the posts and to find better data on what is really going on - and I am glad to come across people who want to research stuff seriously with a sceptical, testing but open mind so that we can dig through the mess and find some amazing truths - may be some stuff we never thought possible and some stuff we do not like... but I want to know...

"vectoring" (as Greer describes it) may be possible, but is very improbable - but lets stop hiding it, remove the mystery, get $$$ out of the equation, get it properly into open public debate and experience.

If vectoring is real, I should beable to go outside and communicate and vector in a UFO.... and make some new friendships...
The "special group" thing, and secrecy and $$$ aspects put out giant big red warning flags to me - and we need to cut through it all and find out the truth of the story.

What really frustrates me is that "truth of the vectoring story" is like trying to grab hold of a rainbow - All I come across is 2nd & 3rd hand stories - I would like to hear from people who experienced it, seen it, done it and beable to chat with them. The more the better.....

Originally posted by jritzmann
Because they don't really care, because it's all fun entertainment for them. Because they now drown in mediocrity of a field that no longer weighs evidence, but accepts all points as valid so as not to hurt a frail ego, or demean someone for absolute nonsense.
[snip]
No. Everyone is not. That my friend, is a fact. To argue that which has shown time and again not to be true, is an effort in futility. Yet the Greer supporters still hold up him as someone "doing good work".

Yes, yes, evidence must be weighed, there are standards of evidence, we must discard all the garbage for which there is no evidence, etc etc.

But what I've been trying to tell you, jritzmann, is that THERE IS EVIDENCE! I have some of it!

These UFO Congress DVDs, have evidence on them!

People complain that there's not enough evidence of Greer's vectoring? Well EXCUSE ME, but in 2002 CSETI visited Mount Adams, did their contact meditation, a BUNCH of Triangles came in, James Gilliland FILMED it, and has even given ATS a copy of the DVD!

You want evidence - well there it is! Sitting there COLLECTING DUST!

Also of significance is the FACT that all these big names in the New Energy movement keep giving Greer the nod. Names like Bearden, Joel Garbon, Jeanne Manning, Nora Maccoby, etc etc. Clearly, they know him and have worked with him. Why do they keep giving him the nod, if he's such a fraud?

This is EVIDENCE, jritzmann.

FACT: UFO Congress also know Greer and can substantiate a lot of this stuff. Especially Bob Brown.

EVIDENCE.

You wanted evidence, I have provided it for you.

Now, if you refuse to look into any of these leads I have so graciously provided for you - and I suspect you will - then your true colors will show for all of ATS to see.........

Originally posted by GoldenAge
Well EXCUSE ME, but in 2002 CSETI visited Mount Adams, did their contact meditation, a BUNCH of Triangles came in, James Gilliland FILMED it, and has even given ATS a copy of the DVD!

I have asked for said DVD and no one seems to have it. Furthermore, satellites in triangular pattern have been seen there, and can be seen elsewhere with low ground light pollution. So, if they're triangular light patterns, we've seen all that before. Give me the close structured craft Greer has gone on about. We've never seen those.

And btw, you're talking to someone who has firmly seen craft show up at the mere mention of them, and I have reported them over the years, in that the phenomena pays as much attention as you give to it. So I do recognize that such events can happen. Has Greer done that? I haven't seen any evidence of such in all the years he's been around (And I've been around for all of his.)

What I see is outlandish claims and innuendos. So, enough.

Originally posted by spacemanjupiter
He got paid 250,000 dollars a year as a doctor. He gave that up for all this. He's in it for the money??

Have you seen his paycheck stubs? How is it you know his reason for "leaving" the medical profession? I don't believe we've heard from the Hospital the details of his exit.

I know Walt Andrus (based on a person on this board who has asked him) has said he was let go. True? False? Please enlighten us.

Originally posted by jritzmann
For the absolute last time dude, I'm talking about the outlandish claims and ridiculousness this thread as been solely about. You know what I'm talking about and have avoided it at every turn.

Actually it would appear that it is you who avoids and dodges, Ritzmann!

I throw a whole bunch of actual evidence at you, and you run to the hills! "Well I'm too good to even look at this. The evidence isn't up to my standards. Discarded!" What unbelievable pretentiousness!



That's it, run away from me, the guy with the evidence. Chicken.

It doesn't prove it's ET, what is inside, nor where it came from.

Of course it doesn't, jritzmann. No video footage can prove that! You've been doing this, what, 21 years now, you should know that by now.....

Your evidence is highly suspect and severely lacking in comparison to the claims made.

How would you know, when you haven't even looked at it?

As far as Orion, that's not my area of interest,

More avoiding and dodging,

Anyone bothering to talk to people and look into the claims will come up very short. Then they'll know.

Ah, talking to people and looking into the claims, now you're making more sense. I challenge you to do exactly that! Talk to Bob Brown, Joel Garbon, Bearden, Jeanne Manning, Sterling Allan, and Nora Maccoby, and see what they say.

So You'll have to pardon me if the rest of us leave you behind and move on while you scream and shout that there's evidence.

LOL. Speak for yourself and only yourself. Others might want to actually follow up on leads, which is what good investigators do!

Originally posted by jritzmann
I have asked for said DVD and no one seems to have it.

Wow, this just gets better and better. Now ATS seems to have just "accidentally" misplaced the Greer-CSETI-Mount Adams Evidence DVD! Lovely!

Give up already, GoldenAge. I'm tired of you promoting this character. If Greer have videos of actual spaceships he can show them or zip it .. and no lights in the in the sky isn't necessarily a spaceship.

Instead of 'investigating' the orion project in the manner that GoldenAge suggests (which more or less just comes down to promote it..) My proposition to deny ignorance is that ATS should do a serious investigative background check on Mr Greer.. Salaries, tax returns, housing, prior and present associations, thousand dollar sky watching sessions, membership fees, are there any validity at all to the outlandish claims, etc etc. And how about all the other various 'non-profit, please fund us' projects he ran? There's been like half a dozen of them? What happened to them all? How much money has he received in donations and where did it go?

[edit on 27-11-2008 by LogicalThinker]

Originally posted by LogicalThinker
Give up already, GoldenAge.

No.

Instead of 'investigating' the orion project in the manner that GoldenAge suggests (which more or less just comes down to promote it..)

No, no, no, LOOK. All I really want is for the staff to speak with Joel Garbon, and investigate the OVERUNITY ENERGY DEVICES.

THAT's what's important right now, the technology!

The fact that Garbon, and a bunch of others, give props to Greer, that just shows me that Greer has been active on the technology front, exactly as he says he has been.

But to do what I'm proposing, ATS doesn't even need to speak with Greer for God's sake!

Look, I know people are never going to be convinced of anything related to CSETI, no matter how much footage there is, or how many witnesses speak of their experiences or how many people vouch for Greer.

So, LET'S MOVE ON.

Don't you want to find out once and for all if these overunity energy devices are real? Wouldn't you want to see ATS do a REAL, serious investigation into them? I sure do!!