Are you Conservative or just Anti-Liberal?

During the campaign, I never heard McCain or Palin speak to me as to why I should vote for them. All I heard was "Don't vote for that guy!"

As I listen to Hannity, all of his arguments are about being anti-liberal, under the guise of conservatism.


I used to think that conservatism was about free markets and fiscal responsibility to ensure domestic strength. But when I turn on the radio or go to a blog to learn about conservatism, all I get is anti-liberal rhetoric.


So can someone please explain the principles of conservatism as they stand without reference to liberalism?

I'm a fiscal conservative/social liberal. So, I agree with both sides on different issues.

As far as fiscal conservatism (in my mind) goes, that means:

* Lower taxes for all
* Smaller government (less government interference and control in all aspects of life and business)
* A free market economy (business succeed and/or fail on their own without any government interference)
* Strong military (no cuts in the military budget)
* Personal responsibility (both individuals in this country and the government in this country take responsibility for their own actions and don't expect to be propped up by either government assistance for individuals or higher taxes/more interference for government; also includes, in my mind, elimination or extreme limitations to the "welfare state")

In my mind, that is "fiscal conservatism". Might not be the dictonary definition, but it is mine.

[edit on 11/21/2008 by skeptic1]

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
During the campaign, I never heard McCain or Palin speak to me as to why I should vote for them. All I heard was "Don't vote for that guy!"

Maybe that's all you were listening for. I heard plenty of good reasons to vote for them.

As I listen to Hannity, all of his arguments are about being anti-liberal, under the guise of conservatism.

Not true. His arguments are against the ideas of liberalism, which he generally refutes with Conservative ideology. True he does rant sometimes, but for the most part he always stresses Conservative values.

I used to think that conservatism was about free markets and fiscal responsibility to ensure domestic strength. But when I turn on the radio or go to a blog to learn about conservatism, all I get is anti-liberal rhetoric.

From some sources of course you do, but Conservatism is still about those things.

So can someone please explain the principles of conservatism as they stand without reference to liberalism?

There are many threads on that subject here at ATS. I've even authored a few myself.

Also, the best way to examine an ideology is to contrast it with opposite ideology. So I don't think you can accurately do that.

[edit on 21-11-2008 by nyk537]

Liberal / Conservative - the two aren't mutually exclusive. You can share parts of both ideologies but class yourself as the one that more closely fits your personal ideals.

Check Wikipedia. There are multiple forms of conservatism, including liberal conservatism, libertarian conservatism, fiscal conservatism, green conservatism, etc. (en.wikipedia.org...)

I'm conservative but there are a few liberal ideals I agree with. Conservatively, I believe:
* Individuals are economically responsible for their own actions and decisions and should be held to that responsibility.
* Lower taxes, not higher taxes, foster a healthy economy
* More power to individual states
* Strong national defense
* That bills like FISA are necessary evils to combating terrorism
* Free markets, free trade
* I am strongly in favor of capital punishment
* I beleive marriage is a union defined by God between a man and a woman. I am not against civil unions for gays.

From the liberal standpoint, I am apart from conservatism on the following:
* I favor the environment over business, so when business threatens natural habitats of animals, especially endangered species, or the environment itself, I'll almost always side with the environment unless the circumstances are beyond unusual. We only have one planet and we shouldn't waste it or treat it disrespectfully.
* I favor the woman's right to choose, regarding abortion. As for murder, I think that's an issue best left between her and God. This is far different from the capital punishment issue until you can show me how an unborn child is in any way the same as a man or woman who has committed murder or another capital crime.

I do have an exception to the abortion issue, however. I am totally against late-term abortions. If the child can be delivered and survive on its own at that point, even with a little help, then it is murder to kill the child.

Moderate ideologies:

* I favor renewable energy research, but I also believe you cannot eliminate oil from the mix. At this point in time, I believe we need both, and the natural progression toward renewable energy will advance over time, gradually.
* I understand the global economy and the need to save money by offshoring the more monotonous jobs. But I believe there is a point where can offshore too much of your work in favor of saving money and sacrifice quality, security and customer satisfaction. Our government should offer significant incentives (grants and tax breaks) only for companies that offshore 0% to 2% of their workforce. Naturally companies that offshore no workers get more money than those that offshore 2%.

Oh one more thing to the OP - you mentioned you were listening to Hannity. Personally I don't listen to Hannity because I don't favor his speaking style.

You might try listening to Mark Levin, instead. He's a constitutional lawyer who has served as an advisor to several members of Reagan's cabinet, including his chief of staff. When it comes to the Constitution, the guy is as sharp as they come. On his show he talks about the issues and conservative ideologies.

www.marklevinshow.com...

My beliefs are split about 50/50 so I'm neither.

I do believe that the government needs some fiscal conservatives to regulate the out of control spending that has been rampant in Washington for so long.

I also am a firm believer in smaller government and less laws.

I do believe that business needs regulations.

I believe that on most issues people should be able to make up their own minds and that we don't need so many laws.

reply to post by nyk537


Actually McCain spouted anti liberal views. Examples..


He talked about how Obama was going to "raise your taxes" but on the same note could not come up with any ways to dramatically shrink government to pay for the bigger tax breaks McCain wants to give.


He talked about keeping the military all over the world how its America's duty to be the police of the world but yet cant raise taxes to pay for it or shrink government to the point to where it can be paid for.

I have more examples but I think you get the point. The modern Republicans do not represent true old school conservative values. I think the Libertarians more do than anyone. Small government and low taxes and yes that does include shrinking our bloated military. You can have a strong military without having bases and troops all over the world. Shrink the police state and the nanny state. Quit sending billions to Pakistan and Israel in "foreign aid" and damn get off the oil addiction and quit sending 700 billion of wealth to the Saudis. McCain and the Republicans talk a big game but can never come up with realistic answers. This is why I said Obama did not win this election....the Republicans lost this election.

I understand your point but I fail to see how your examples are anti-liberal.

Not explaining how he would do something while at the same time denouncing what Obama's plans were is not anti-liberal.

I don't think disagreeing with someone makes you anti-whatever.

Perhaps I'm not taking the definition literally enough in this context though.

This is a common problem a lot of moderates or independents are having. They see the partizan's like Hannity and think that he is just a hater. That he is too obsessed with his own ideology he simply automatically disagrees with anything that isn't Conservatism.

And it's partially true. Hannity is PRO-Iraq & and PRO-Afghanistan NOT because he is CONSERVATIVE, for a true Conservative doesn't believe in nation building or elective-wars.

Hannity believes in the war because LIBERALS don't.

So in some ways, you can see how what THE OP is talking about with the Sean Hannity's of the world. Someone that blindly supports the war because he wants to be the opposition to liberals.

Republicans used to stand for some principals. But they voted for the bail out after some minor protests, once they got the earmarks for their districts, they jumped on board.

I think if your looking for idealism or for traditions, you won't find them in today's political arena. Instead, you'll often stumble upon contradictions and head scratchers.

edit: You see, Republicans have to be FOR the war because Democrats are AGAINST it. It is in this way that both bases are covered. Both parties work for the same goals and have the same game-plan. This is obvious to the brightest lights.

[edit on 21-11-2008 by ConservativeJack]

Originally posted by nyk537
I understand your point but I fail to see how your examples are anti-liberal.

Not explaining how he would do something while at the same time denouncing what Obama's plans were is not anti-liberal.

I don't think disagreeing with someone makes you anti-whatever.

Perhaps I'm not taking the definition literally enough in this context though.

What Im saying is the Republicans are a farse. They are not conservative they are just anti liberal. They talk a big game about conservatism but dont back it up. If you talk conservatism and back it up with actions then it would be different. They dont and that is why they will continue to lost because people like me will continue to vote 3rd party.

Originally posted by mybigunit
What Im saying is the Republicans are a farse.

Not all of them. There are still some strong Conservative Republicans. You are correct though that most of them are RINO's now.

They are not conservative they are just anti liberal.

Those would be a small minority in my opinion. The real Conservatives in the party are not anti-liberal. The RINO's wish they were liberal. It's the kooky neo-cons who may be anti-liberal.

and that is why they will continue to lost because people like me will continue to vote 3rd party.

I don't blame you. There are not many real Conservative voices in the party right now, I won't argue that fact. That's why we need to kick the RINO's out and get back to our roots. If they won't leave, then I'm all for the real Conservatives abandoning them and starting their own party.

The Republican party wouldn't last a year without the Conservatives.

Originally posted by nyk537

I don't blame you. There are not many real Conservative voices in the party right now, I won't argue that fact. That's why we need to kick the RINO's out and get back to our roots. If they won't leave, then I'm all for the real Conservatives abandoning them and starting their own party.

The Republican party wouldn't last a year without the Conservatives.

Out of curiosity how many true old school conservative is there left? Ron Paul I know is one but really who else?

Originally posted by nyk537

Originally posted by mybigunit
What Im saying is the Republicans are a farse.

Not all of them. There are still some strong Conservative Republicans. You are correct though that most of them are RINO's now.

They are not conservative they are just anti liberal.

Those would be a small minority in my opinion. The real Conservatives in the party are not anti-liberal. The RINO's wish they were liberal. It's the kooky neo-cons who may be anti-liberal.

and that is why they will continue to lost because people like me will continue to vote 3rd party.

I don't blame you. There are not many real Conservative voices in the party right now, I won't argue that fact. That's why we need to kick the RINO's out and get back to our roots. If they won't leave, then I'm all for the real Conservatives abandoning them and starting their own party.

The Republican party wouldn't last a year without the Conservatives.

Please stop throwing around the word Conservative.

A conservative is anti nation building.

Anyone that supports the wars is not a conservative in any sense of the word.

That's the biggest joke going that your a real red blood conservative if you support the wars. LOOOOOOL. Your a Neo-Conservative. Which is really a word for liberal.

Originally posted by mybigunit

Originally posted by nyk537

I don't blame you. There are not many real Conservative voices in the party right now, I won't argue that fact. That's why we need to kick the RINO's out and get back to our roots. If they won't leave, then I'm all for the real Conservatives abandoning them and starting their own party.

The Republican party wouldn't last a year without the Conservatives.

Out of curiosity how many true old school conservative is there left? Ron Paul I know is one but really who else?

Did anyone stand up against the bail out?

Nope....

They voted for it.

There are some Conservatives in the House.

In the Senate, nope.

The reason McCain and many other "Conservatives" are sounding more and more 'anti-liberal' rather than genuinely conservative is because they are.

Republicat and RINO arent terms without meaning you know.

People forget that the 'neo-con' movement grew out of global socialism.

I love all the folks complaining about how 'far right' Republicans have gotten. The only direction I've seen them moving is left.

The foundation of Conservatism hasnt changed. Idiots cant change the meaning of a word no mater how hard they try. At it's core Conservatism would have to be what people are labeling as "socially liberal" by default. It's nobodys business what you do with your life. Especially not governments.

Conservatism in regards to politics refers to government. Not culture. If some group wants to be culturally conservative that's their business. Not governments. Cultural conservatism is all that churchy 'fear of change' crap that I see so many conservative haters rattle off as examples of government.

A conservative government doesnt care if you want to get high and sleep with transgender hookers and marry a goat. A conservative culture might though.

Both conservative culture and liberal culture, however, are guilty of trying to use government to impose their beliefs on everyones lives by force of law. Thats not conservative government. That's government applied liberally like butter on corn.

Or so my understanding goes.

Hannity is a neo-con; along with most of Fox news (apart from Cavuto, Levy and a couple of others who are big business/ libertarian).

The core ideals of true conservatism are:

The free market takes all risk/reward determination functions. People earn and are paid what they deserve, via the market's decision of how useful they are. There is no government interference via excessive taxation, and there is only a minimal levy for vital functions.

The government exists solely to create schemes which the market will not do automatically. This generally means policing and military, regulatory (ie patents, consumer protection, safety etc).

Anything else the government does (like telling you if you can own guns or not; or telling you whether abortion is legal or not; or taking away your income to provide for the unemployed etc) is simply meddling and is unconstitutional.

No candidate is a true conservative. Ron Paul comes close, but he let himself down by proving to be a slight social conservative in order to appeal to the evangelical right.

Reagan came very close to the ideals, but maintained a medium size government overall. He is admired by conservatives because of the measures he took (which are in line with conservative ideology) and also for being a principled leader. While he never shrunk the excesses of the state (IRS, Fed etc), he sought to limit any new power siezure by the government.

So essentially conservatism is an ideology of individuality. Conservatives value freedom above everything, and we hate intrusions and meddling. We believe that as long as each man has access to success, those who want it bad enough will attain it. We play for keeps. We value society and we are friendly, but we hate those who don't pull their own weight, and those who are reliant upon others only through laziness. We value business and wealth creation, we value innovation and we value excellence.

We dislike collectivism, we don't believe that every man is essentially just another number in the system and we don't believe that every man must be equal in terms of the amount of money they have. We don't believe it is our duty to help others, if they do not help themselves. We don't believe in interventionism at home or abroad.

True conservatives are few and far between in modern times.

reply to post by 44soulslayer


44soulslayer,
Thank you very much. I think you did a great job of outlining conservative values without any anti-liberal rhetoric.


By this definition, I would also classify myself as a conservative, because it makes no claims as to what my social ideaology should be. By this definition I can stand on those fiscal principles that I believe in and at the same time support gay marriage, pro-choice, the legalization of marijuana etc.


Personally, I know that alot of my contemporaries who voted for Obama voted on social issues. The Republican party could easily dessimate the Obama voters union if the GOP would only dis-engage from the social issues, or at least openly made room for those of us who are liberal socially.

If McCain would have simply read what you posted here, and recited that over and over I think things could have gone a lot differently. Heck I would have probably voted for him.

Thanks again, for a very well thought out and thought provoking post.

I really do appreciate it. And I have to say, that by that definition, I am a conservative.



[edit on 21-11-2008 by HunkaHunka]

reply to post by sos37


SOS, thank you as well for a very well thought out post.

From reading where you place yourself on the issues, I don't really think we are that far off from eachother. I know you oppose Obama, and I support him, but to be honest, it was primarily on social issues that I voted for him.

For more, take a look at the post I just made above this one. I just wanted to say thank you for a great non-partisan contribution to this thread.