At this point, we can put in a whole slew of 'perhaps' scenarios because this is actually a question for God (and surely we could just ask Him directly).

Perhaps God wanted us to see just how terrible war was. Previously it was God Himself to dealt directly with those who opposed Him. We'd have a small part of how He felt when He had removed people from the life He gave. I don't know anyone who fought in a war and is happy for what happened.

Perhaps he needed to ween us off of mankind's addiction to it.

From the day Christ said, "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you" it became a great mystery for us. Thank God for that change and the hope for these words bring.

[edit on 24-11-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by andre18
if you’re exercising capital punishment on a murderer aren’t you murdering as well?

this i agree with, we as humans cannot judge. but are you seriously saying that god cannot judge?

saint4God

If someone believes God exists, they also believe God created everyone. If God created created, He has the right to un-create.

So what I’m hearing from you Christians is if god so wish’s for your death right now and sends you to hell, that’s ok because it’s god’s judgment – he has the power to give and take life, it’s up to him not us right?

Well I’m sorry but your god sounds pretty F’d up to me. Why would god want to destroy its own creation in the first place? Surely if god’s all knowing it would have known before he even created them they were going to be evil and if you’re going to say god gave them the free will to be created, then why destroy them later???

Why would god create the evil people the Israelites massacred if he knew they where going to die by the hands of the Israelites before he even created them?

Your entire concept of god makes no bloody sense.

Originally posted by andre18
Your entire concept of god makes no bloody sense.

from what little i know of you personally, i would guess it doesnt make sense because you dont want it to make sense. i dont mean that in disrespect btw.

god could have created a world so pristine and so perfect that there would have been no suffering ever. however the price is alot. it means that everything he creates would have limits.

freewill is a freedom of choice, its the ability to go in the complete opposite direction than god (if you choose to do so). you are a completely free moral agent. free to do whatever you want.

you dont want to believe in god. but there is something always reminding you that there are consequences to your actions.

even god has to step carefully understanding that his actions bare consequences. some of those consequences he does not want. but it doesnt change the fact that he can do whatever he wants.

same goes for his creation. if you are designed to ingest food in order to survive, and you refuse to take in that food, then you will suffer the consequences of that decision. its not heartless, its not punishment, its cause and effect.

the suffering we experience today is an effect of one decision. one stupid decision and everyone suffers. the whole bible is about god trying to undo that one decision. not only undoing but also explaining to us why.

but in the end what does it boil down to?

if you were invited to life in a place where there is no more crime. you pack your bags and go. your thinking this is great, ill never have to lock my doors, infact i dont even need doors! ill never have to worry about walking home at night. you arrive at this town and it is amazing. now what? do you start robbing people? to live in a utopia, you have to contribute to that utopia. if you work against that utopia, then what is to be done with you?

the problem is that there ARE bad people in this world. and from the state of the world today id venture to say that it is the majority. im talking about people who dont give a sh** about anyone else but themselves. what do you do with them?

you think hell is unfair? so do i. so does the bible. however the bible does mention unrepentant sinners being destroyed in a lake of fire.

if you are saying that god is inmoral for destroying a person that refuses to love his fellow man, then what do you propose doing to him?

you could put him in prison for all eternity, but lets face it, im sure he would rather die than put up with an eternity confinement. besides the fact that it doesnt seem fair.

you could banish them to a world of their own where they can do whatever they want. but now your asking god to be unjust. they will suffer for the consequences of their behavior, and sometimes they will suffer because of other's choices. is that really just?

all this besides, you never answered my question. if god made us, are you saying he is incapable of judging us?

Originally posted by andre18

Originally posted by miriam0566
this i agree with, we as humans cannot judge. but are you seriously saying that god cannot judge?

saint4God

My answer? I say yes absolutely God can judge, has before and will again.

Originally posted by andre18
So what I’m hearing from you Christians

Drawing lines in the sand? Instead of saying "you Christians" how about looking at is as "us people" because in many ways we're in the same boat (you and I) on planet Earth.

Originally posted by andre18
is if god so wish’s for your death right now and sends you to hell, that’s ok because it’s god’s judgment – he has the power to give and take life, it’s up to him not us right?

Remembering that God is good and God knows perfect justice, then absolutely yes.

Originally posted by andre18
Well I’m sorry but your god sounds pretty F’d up to me.

Surely it does because you and I do not know what perfect justice is. When people make decisions, we screw it up. God doesn't. It takes trust that He knows and will always always always make the right decision.

Originally posted by andre18
Why would god want to destroy its own creation in the first place?

Who said he wanted to? I've had to spank my child before. I didn't want to at all, but it was the right thing to do. It was painful for me, emotionally and spiritually. Looking back at what was learned, I'm glad we'd gotten through it and would not have done differently.

Originally posted by andre18
Surely if god’s all knowing it would have known before he even created them they were going to be evil and if you’re going to say god gave them the free will to be created, then why destroy them later???

He gives us an opportunity to choose out of love, so that we aren't mindless robots merely doing tasks to keep busy. He did equip us with a lot of things found in His character.

Originally posted by andre18
Why would god create the evil people the Israelites massacred if he knew they where going to die by the hands of the Israelites before he even created them?

It's not only important for people to learn and grow, but also for entire societies to learn and grow. It comes back to the 'perhaps' guessing game unless we ask Him ourselves. Remember also the people the Israelites had fought had taken the lands (you think there was no massacre in the taking away from the Israelites?) given specifically to the Israelites by God and had gone against God in many ways. The suggestion was that they were knowing doing so and had been warned, though I wasn't present myself. Christ blew the whistle and told believers to stop, to put away the old ways (perhaps we'd learned our lesson?) and put on the new way of forgiveness so that we could be forgiven ourselfs instead of eye-for-eye justice.

Originally posted by andre18
Your entire concept of god makes no bloody sense.

It's not easy to understand (who could understand God entirely?) but it isn't without sense or reasonability. I understand your frustration and questions because I had the same ones and required seeking out the answers.

[edit on 25-11-2008 by saint4God]

It could very possibly also be due to the 'live by the sword' mentality of that era. To survive, it was impossible to be seen as weak militarily. Perhaps God wanted them to be victorious in battle to send a message to future tribes that would seek to wage war with them.

I don’t now, that sounds a little sickening. Let me get this straight, the main reason god created those tribes was so the Israelites could defeat them in battle. Wow, just imagine. God creates you, your entire meaning of life set out by god is too die by the hands of a jew…..

AshleyD you really need to think this one over



[edit on 25-11-2008 by andre18]

Originally posted by andre18
Let me get this straight, the main reason god created those tribes was so the Israelites could defeat them in battle. Wow, just imagine. God creates you, your entire meaning of life set out by god is too die by the hands of a jew…..

where did ashley say that? im confused...

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
Does the OP have a problem with Obedience or just God,

This is a good point, many people have issues with obedience by itself, especially in the country I live.

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
if it is obedience I can imagine he type of children this OP will release on society,

Patience please, parents learn about obedience because it is a necessary action to discipline their children. I never thought I would have to spank my child before my child was born. When the time came, I understood.

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
the same kind most parents these days are raising, disrespectful, disobedient, greedy, mouthy little %^#*s. Just what we all need more of...

I agree it's a problem to have disrespectful 'spoiled' children that never grow up in our society, but I'm not sure what the value is of getting upset over it. As a former child, I have to admit that I was not born with discipline, respect and self control but rather learned them over the course of my lifetime. Children who are disrespectful don't need an enemy, then need someone who loves them so much they'll put both persons in a little pain in order to grow. For the adult, it's mental/spiritual, for the child it's physical, but in the end the act of correction is one of love. If you see society at 'the child' in this parable, perhaps it makes more sense.

[edit on 25-11-2008 by saint4God]

You state that your superior moral center is derived from the fact that you are an atheist. Yet you use the Scriptures and the commands of God to His people to make an argument. Then you don't like the answer. What's the game here?

It’s not that I don’t like the answer it’s just the answers given are just too stupid to be take seriously. It’s like if you asked a child a question and they purposely respond with stupid replies.

Doesn’t the fact that you’re defending genocide simply illustrate how ‘superior’ my morals are? Doesn’t that show how a belief in god can cause people to think so in such a horrible way?

Bloody hell if I needed to show an example of the mentality of Christian fundys I wouldn’t need to look any further then you.

Originally, the people who occupied that land were beyond wicked. And they weren't even atheists!

I like how you say they weren’t even atheists, as to say they were evil but that kind of evil. lol – yes because of course there’s nothing evil about defending genocide at all, not one bit……

They were polluting the land with their wicked ways, human sacrifices, and other fine, upstanding practices. So this abomination of humanity had to go. The people of Israel simply did as commanded.

You do realize god also told them to take sex slaves as well, not only to slaughter them but to take those they wished as sex slaves - yeh coz that’s not evil

You're confusing murder with extermination. Murder is personal.

I like how you think there’s a difference….. you should be a comedian

If you don't want an answer, then don't ask the question.

How about you answer the question without sounding like a complete tard….

Why is everyone having a go at andre18?

He has brought up a valid question and nearly all replies include the defense of genocide,with arguments that is was God's will,the people were wicked etc.

What you should be wondering is why these people were massacred.As far as we know they had never heard of the one God of the Hebrews,therefore they knew nothing of sin and repentance.They were innocent in their ignorance.

So,were they killed for this reason given by andre18

Which means god meant to create the people the Israelites massacred for the soul purpose of dying by the hands of Jews

Was that their purpose?
Its highly possible.

Proverbs 16:4

The LORD hath made all things for himself:yea,even the wicked for the day of evil.

Originally posted by andre18
Let me get this straight, the main reason god created those tribes was so the Israelites could defeat them in battle. Wow, just imagine. God creates you, your entire meaning of life set out by god is too die by the hands of a jew…..

Is it just me or was the question completely rephrased after I answered it? The question was never 'why were these people created.' The question was, why didn't God take care of things himself instead of having the Jews engage in battle.

Also, if you couldn't figure out my post was complete speculation (especially after saying point blank numerous times that is exactly what it was) then I don't know what to do to help you understand. And again, please don't rephrase the question after someone answers you and act like that was the question they were answering. Seriously. People are going to start boycotting your threads again.

*Edited to make this comment a bit friendlier.

[edit on 11/26/2008 by AshleyD]

Whats really interesting is, according to the bible Joshua only ascended half way up the mountain where the ten commandments were revealed. after Moses(PBUH) death, joshua claims moses instructed him to go into canaan and take the land. So joshua slaughtered every living thing in canaan. My question is? Did moses really tell joshua this, or could joshua have thought more on the lines of, our prophet has died we are homeless more or less, lets go into canaan??

Originally posted by jakyll
Why is everyone having a go at andre18?

Not everyone.

Originally posted by jakyll
He has brought up a valid question and nearly all replies include the defense of genocide,with arguments that is was God's will,the people were wicked etc.

What you should be wondering is why these people were massacred.

Is there an assumption that I haven't?

Originally posted by jakyll
As far as we know they had never heard of the one God of the Hebrews,therefore they knew nothing of sin and repentance.They were innocent in their ignorance.

And you know this...how?