God is a very efficient killer, the bible’s full of stories of god killing people. It starts with a mass killing where god actually drowns millions of people on the planet, later on god sends the angel of death down through Egypt to kill the oldest of everyone in Egypt who doesn’t have blood painted around their door. – apparently he needs some sort of external marker so he knows who he’s supposed to slaughter.

God also kills about 50,000 people because a couple of people looked inside the ark of the covenant, he kills someone else for simply touching the box and he kills someone else for failing to impregnate his dead brother’s wife.

Imagine I promised I was going to give you a car, when you hit your birthday I’m going to give you a sports car and I promise you I’m going to do it. So the day comes, you come to my house – you’re knocking on the door excited, you say “great great I want the car, where’s my car?” and I say I’m a man of my word I’ll give you the car. Go right across the street to the Jones’ house, kill Mr. Jones, kill his wife, kill their infant son and daughter and their cat and dog, then you can have their car – it’s yours, happy birthday……..

Would you consider that a good gift? would you consider me great wonderful fabulous person for giving you this great gift? No, you’d consider me a kook for telling you to kill somebody else and take their sh!t.

But that’s exactly what god does in the bible. God promises his chosen people the promised land, when they get there, there are already people living there. Now does god kill those people or move them away on his own…. as I said he’s a very efficient killer, he can do it just fine. No, god tells the Israelites if you want the land, slaughter everyone that’s in it. kill everybody and then you can have what’s theirs, you can have their land. happy birthday!

Now it’s not a good gift, it’s stupid and people who say that god gave them the promise land so they had the right to kill these people, well they’re just insane. Now apologists have thousands of excuses as to why god had these people killed – there are all sorts of rationalizations as to why they had to die, but what I haven’t heard yet is why god had the Israelites kill them.

Why if they had to die why god just didn’t take care of it himself and give the Israelites the gift he promised. Why not just give them the land, why make them slaughter everyone for it? So that’s the new tough question for you guys –

Why did god make the Israelites kill everyone off instead of simply having the land prepared and ready for them like he promised? Why did god make the Israelites murder so many people in order to take possession of the land he promised them?

[edit on 21-11-2008 by andre18]

Obedience obay obay obay ok.Do what they tell u to do . God just spoke to moses. and moses ( one who was taught in the best schools of Egypt and did quite well] told them to kill.1 man told them to and they have been fighting ever since 1 man! can anybody say hitler. pay backs a bitch.
and i think Jesus is still pissed for teaching love and getting nailed to a tree.
but who am I to know the mind of the Gods

my fellow humans are so silly.

Originally posted by andre18
[...]

Why if they had to die why god just didn’t take care of it himself and give the Israelites the gift he promised. Why not just give them the land, why make them slaughter everyone for it? So that’s the new tough question for you guys –

Why did god make the Israelites kill everyone off instead of simply having the land prepared and ready for them like he promised? Why did god make the Israelites murder so many people in order to take possession of the land he promised them?

because the Israelites tribal god wanted them to be up to their eyeballs in bloodshed & strife and to create an eternal conflict for all generations on earth between the posterity of the Israelites and the many peoples of the region...
the levant, palestine, lebanon, cannanites, jordan, hittites, babylon, et al!

an everlasting conflict & turmoil & destruction... was the intended design of the tribal god.

The hittites were so evil there was no turning back to god , as in the flood.they were wicked in the eyes of god and he knew they werenot going to turn back to him.God keeps you for a time then if you continue in wickedness he lets you go.So the hittites and other hites had to go . cause bad company corrupts good morals.thats why from a christain point of view

Originally posted by andre18
God is a very efficient killer, the bible’s full of stories of god killing people.

Oh? How many did he create?

Most think God killing people is evil, but they don't know it is the most merciful thing he could do. If someone is evil and the longer they immerse themselves in it, the more they will corrupt their own mind. Say you were to have two consecutive jobs, one under an evil boss (a person whose traits would no doubt rub off on you), the next under the most giving, loving, and selfless boss you could imagine, under who you would now have to loose all those evil traits you got from your first boss (depending on how long you worked under him). Now, imagine that as soon as you are fired from your first job, you are then hired in your next, but the power to have you fired from your first lies in the hands of your second boss. What would be the most merciful thing to your second boss could do? It would be to fire you, so you then could be hired by him.

Most, Christians included, fail to see that the Bible talks of two mortal lives for most. It talks of living your first life, dying, returning to the dust from which you were made to await the resurrection, and some dying a second time (the second death) in the great judgment.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Scripture talks of one resurrection at the return of Christ (his saints) and the rest resurrected 1000 years later. Those who take part in the first resurrection are made immortal at that point, and reign with Christ 1000 years.....

1CORINTHIANS 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

For those who do suffer the second death, they will have to live twice, right? Then why does the vast majority of Christianity completely gloss over this point?

This current age is under the control of Satan, he is called the god of this world in this age (2Corinthians 4:4 ), and the church are the ones called out of THIS age. The word church is translated from the Greek word Ekklesia, meaning 'called out ones', and they are called out by God (John 6:44), not through those who think they can save people. These are they who are to either rule with Christ 1000 years, or those at the end who are to live on through the tribulation into this kingdom. Those who are part of the second resurrection, and accept God's way of life, during this second life, are then made immortal at the end of their second life. Those who don't will suffer the judgment, a righteous judgment, because they will have no excuses, such as "but they lived on an excluded island, they never even heard of the bible!" as you hear often said. "Hell", as it is described in the Bible, is either simply the grave (hades), awaiting the resurrection, or the lake of fire at the end (gehenna), which destroys, not eternally torments....

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna - lake of fire).

The two ages (or jobs to use my analogy) are to serve as a witness, a contrast of what can be done in 6000 years without God, and what can be accomplished in 1000 years with God. Those in the second resurrection will have this evidence before them, they will now live a second life, and will then be judged. Some however have already learned the truth, and rejected it. This is what is meant by the term Anti-Christ, it is not a single person, it is many.

So yes, God is not evil in killing people in this age, he is actually quite merciful, since the sooner you die in this age, the less you will have to cleanse your mind from in the next. People simply see this as evil because they are ignorant of this truth.

[edit on 21/11/08 by doctorex]

Andre, if I were forced to use one word to sum up the Old Testament, I would have to say it teaches "OBEDIENCE."

If I were forced to do the same for the New Testament, I'd have to say, "GRACE."

Now, no grace without obedience.

We're given choices. You move to a flood plain, expect floods. You move to hurricane prone SE US, expect hurricanes. You make bad political decisions, your country may suffer.

We are given choices. We make our own decisions. We can deny whatever we wish. We can embrace whatever we wish, including you.

This?

This isn't the reality. This is just the test. Some experience a long test, others a very short test. Some an easier test, some a difficult test.

How do you think you're doing?

You're not getting any traction off this with me.

So basically what you all saying from what I’ve gathered, is that god killed those people because they were evil, I guess you’re the type of people who support capital punishment……. I don’t think there’s any room left for debate in that case, we have completely different moral views.

I’m not so much as debating why god kills, but why he instructed the Israelites to kill for something they where already promised. No one has answered that main question.



[edit on 22-11-2008 by andre18]

Originally posted by andre18
So basically what you all saying from what I’ve gathered, is that god killed those people because they were evil, I guess you’re the type of people who support capital punishment……. I don’t think there’s any room left for debate in that case, we have completely different moral views.

who better to judge someone than an all-knowing ever present god? are saying that god doesnt have the ability to judge?

who are you to judge? did you know enough about the people of that time to be able to say without a doubt that they were righteous? who are you to say that they deserved to live?

I’m not so much as debating why god kills, but why he instructed the Israelites to kill for something they where already promised. No one has answered that main question.

it has been mentioned, by several posters. obedience. every battle or confrontation that the isrealites did not rely on god, they lost. it was a lesson in obedience an trust

who better to judge someone than an all-knowing ever present god? are saying that god doesnt have the ability to judge?

You’re justifying gods brutal actions with leniency, why? If we were to kill in the name of evil what kind of people would we be. There is no justification for murder, to kill another for any reason. And I know you as a Christian would beg to differ and that’s why this debate can have no victor – our moral views are too different.

it has been mentioned, by several posters. obedience. every battle or confrontation that the isrealites did not rely on god, they lost. it was a lesson in obedience an trust

I think you’re missing the point of the question again. Why would god require the Israelites to kill for the land they were already promised. What kind of monster would put someone through a test of ‘obedience and trust’ where they had to kill? Again this is where our moral beliefs differ.

You worshipping a monster, means it’s quite difficult for me to reason with you morally without you defending everything god does as 'ok'

[edit on 22-11-2008 by andre18]

Originally posted by andre18
You’re justifying gods brutal actions with leniency, why? If we were to kill in the name of evil what kind of people would we be. There is no justification for murder, to kill another for any reason. And I know you as a Christian would beg to differ and that’s why this debate can have no victor – our moral views are too different.

so no matter how evil someone is, it NEVER justifies killing them?

You're really only going to get 1of 2 answers of most people.A)it was justified because they were evil.B)it was probably Satan's doing.

Bottom line is,God judged the 6/7 different nations that lived in that area,and he found them guilty.All of them.Even children.Have you ever come across a society in history where every single last person,including children,are that wicked they deserve to die? No,me neither.

People like to say that Satan rules the earth,yet they ignore or don't know of such verses as Deuteronomy 10:14,Psalms 24:1 and 1 Corinthians 10:26,which state clearly that the earth is God's and everything in it.If that is so then he is in charge of this world,not Satan.

You say there is no justification for killing - for any reason.

Such a noble idea. You've got a mighty high pedestal that you have perched yourself upon.

The Israelites were to take the land that was to be given to them. The manner in which this was conducted is not for you or I to judge. Nothing given to you means that much. Something you have to fight for means a lot more.

God was apparently doing a few things. You'll note the change-ups in their instructions as they went along. Obedience. Do exactly what I say, and it will go your way. Very simple concept. Obedience.

One other thing that it did was to give them a clear demonstration that He was with them, and that while they recognized that alone they would not have been able to prevail, that together with God, they would get exactly as He promised.

Thus, their faith was strengthened, and the comfort that God was with them provided a basis for security.

You'll also note another Old Testament concept that seems brutal on the surface. For certain offenses, the guilty party was to be stoned. Now there were a number of much easier methods of execution, but God wanted this to be a community event. All were to participate, regardless of how distasteful they may feel about partifipating.

They were personally, up close, and provided a real-time memory of what happens to those who violate the more inviolable rules of law. It's real, it's brutal, and it's not to be done or this is the consequence.

We used to have public executions here, but by hiding them away, we've lost the most important impact of public executions. To show clearly what happens to those who do the really bad stuff.

I remember as a young man seeing a man hanged, and it definately made an impression on me. Today, the executions are sanitized and concealed, and there is no way for the young to see the results of bad decisions.

So we see our young now with little value for others lives, murdering each other for drugs, a pocketful of change, a pair of sneakers, revenge, jealousy, gang initiations, and even because they were "dissed."

The truth is, some folks need killing. Killing purifies the rancid human condition. And that's why the Israelites were ordered to kill everyone. No remnants of evil, no bad influences to sway His people, no pagan religions to pollute His people.

It was a purification of the land, pure and simple.

Originally posted by jakyll
People like to say that Satan rules the earth,yet they ignore or don't know of such verses as Deuteronomy 10:14,Psalms 24:1 and 1 Corinthians 10:26,which state clearly that the earth is God's and everything in it.If that is so then he is in charge of this world,not Satan.

i rent an apartment that is fully furnished. its not mine, but the landlord allows me to live in it like it is.

satan, being permitted to rule doesnt change the fact that the earth is god's.

the how's and why's of satan being ruler is a long discussion. however god being the "landlord" has every right to evict anyone who doesnt live by certain rules.

to say that finding a nation of people that are all deserving of death as unlikely is to ignore the fact that we are all sinners and that we all need jesus.

everyone sins. hence everyone dies.

however god applies mercy to those who ask for it.

also remember that likely those nations destroyed by the isrealites will likely be resurrected. (john 5:29)

the how's and why's of satan being ruler is a long discussion. however god being the "landlord" has every right to evict anyone who doesnt live by certain rules.

Evicting people is one thing,genocide is another.Especially of nations who,as far as we know,had never heard of this one God of the Hebrew people.

to say that finding a nation of people that are all deserving of death as unlikely is to ignore the fact that we are all sinners and that we all need jesus.

What about the millions of sinners that lived before Jesus?
And there are different degrees of sin,there is also the fact that children under a certain age do not know right from wrong and therefore can not be held accountable.

so no matter how evil someone is, it NEVER justifies killing them?

No, there is no justification and I’m sure every atheist on ATS would agree with me. This is exactly why atheists are atheists and Christians are Christians. It’s our moral stance.

Who are we to decide whether or not someone should be put to death, if you’re exercising capital punishment on a murderer aren’t you murdering as well?

I'm sorry, but I don't see the Bible as a way to manipulate the masses. Quite the contrary. I see individual choice taught. You choose.

And as far as there being no reason to kill, consider this:

We've all seen the stories on the news where one or two gunmen with the only weapons on the premises calmly walk down the line, more or less executing innocent people.

Now, this day I am packing my Model 1911, .45ACP. I can watch him continue, or I can blow his head off with my laser sight.

Are you telling me that there is no justification for killing this SOB?

To let him continue is the greater evil.

This is the micro scenario, and war is the macro scenario.

I'd blow his brains out and turn around and eat a full dinner. And if I popped this SOB soon enough, I probably couldn't even pay for it!

Get serious.

There's evil, and there's good. And both can kill. To ignore evil and let it continue is even greater evil.

I recall a medic who was a conscious objector, and would climb my frame as he couldn't see any excuse for killing. And I had the highest respect for him as at least he had put his ass on the line and in the way of harm.

One day we almost got overrun, and apparently two Gooks got through and were bayoneting our wounded. Doc was bringing back another wounded man and saw what was happening to his wounded. Unarmed, all he had was a 2" scapel.

After the firefight, I was looking around, and Doc was sitting on a log, all bloody, staring at his hands in a daze. I asked if he was alright. He didn't even look up and said disbelievingly, "I killed them. I killed them." I looked around a bit and saw the two Gooks who were sliced, diced, and quite frankly, butchered. I replied, "yep. You sure as hell did. They are definately dead."

We later talked and I explained to him, "you see, everyone has a breaking point. Ideals are great. Gives us something to reach for, and as long as you can stay removed from the real world, you can maintain your ideals. But yesterday, you met the real world, and your ideals just didn't match up. And Doc, let no one ever tell you different. You did the right thing - the only thing. And that's all one can ever do."

You keep your ideals. They are an artificial concept. They have no meaning. They would be dropped in a moment under the right circumstances.

God, I wish I could escape reality.

Such a noble idea. You've got a mighty high pedestal that you have perched yourself upon.

Not really, it’s only Christians that believe in capital punishment, it’s mainly Christians who join the army .

The Israelites were to take the land that was to be given to them. The manner in which this was conducted is not for you or I to judge.

Well yes it is, how is it not? Some god figure commands you to kill in order to prove your worth, that sounds pretty sick to me. As I said before people who say that god gave them the promise land so they had the right to kill these people, they’re insane, you’re insane. How can you actually say in all seriousness that there’s nothing even remotely sickening about god commanding the Israelites to murder so many people in order to prove themselves?

The truth is, some folks need killing. Killing purifies the rancid human condition. And that's why the Israelites were ordered to kill everyone. No remnants of evil, no bad influences to sway His people, no pagan religions to pollute His people.
It was a purification of the land, pure and simple.

That is ...... up. Are you freaking serious?????
OMGOMGOMG, please do not post any more on my thread you sick twisted SOB...