The other thread the OP refers to was started by one christian who asked the question about why so many people on ATS 'hate Jesus'. The vast majority of posts were from people stating they didn't hate Jesus but they didn't like what some christians have done in his name. The OP of that thread even acknowledged that people didn't hate Jesus and took on board the criticisms against some christians. Now this OP has taken one statement by one christian and suddenly it's 'many christians' who hold this view. I think the OP of this thread is guilty of stereotyping christians in the same way as the OP of the other thread was guilty of stereotyping non-christians. That OP acknowledged their error.




[edit on 22/11/2008 by MarrsAttax]

Originally posted by prototism
In any case, I appreciate the time you took to make this thread, in an attempt to enlighten others, to their perverted, pathetic, and dogmatic belief system.

Judge much?

Maybe they act that way because we act like we believe that sentence?

There are many many different sorts of Christianity and Christians.

There is nothing inherently wrong with dogma.

It is arguable at best that christianity has perverted the original message of Christ. Which Christians do you mean? The Catholics? The Lutherans? Anglicans? Presbyterians? Baptists? the various small sects over the centuries who have preached and practiced a return to the apostolic life?

I hope that Merriman made this thread to point out the fallacy of not listening to the responses when you ask a question, since that's what I thanked him/her for.

PS - since you accuse them of perverting the original message, I assume that you believe that Christ existed and was responsible for the teachings attributed to him, likely in both the canonical and the non-canonical Gospels? Do you also think he was God? that might just make you a Christian.

And calling someone's belief pathetic is way beyond pathetic.

[edit on 11/22/08 by americandingbat]

everyone who did not / does not / will not believe in jesus was actually at the foothills where jesus was crucified back around 33 AD. i was there. you, jim with the face, were there too. we killed jesus. i stuck the spear in his side and cackled pure evil.

anyone not with them is against them. they barely tolerate us, so we must barely tolerate them. tolerate is just another word for hate btw. might as well just call it tolerhate.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses can have a whole book unto themselves over their antics, but believe it or not, Agnostics and nonbelievers are not really their target audience. They actually bother people of other denominations even more, in an attempt to argue them over on points of Dogma. They know that people who are already Christian have opened their hearts to Christ, so they target them to switch the style of Christianity that they follow.

What do you mean a whole book unto themselves? I didn't get that.

You have a lot of thoughts mixed up. Jehovah's Witnesses go back to anyone who are interested. No target audience.

"And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come."
-Matthew 24:14

This is one reason Jehovah's Witnesses preach. Notice all the nations.

The Jehovah's witnesses would have no growth among the U.S. if it wasn't for their foreign language ministry.

And if anyone asks not to be called on, they won't come back. Its not that hard to ask.

[edit on 22-11-2008 by lucidclouds]

I thought the only issue between christians and whoever was the gay marriage. the word marriage has nothing to do with government, as it's a religious instition. Gays getting married is like white guys walkin' around callin' themselves the n word. gimme a break. That being said, I believe that if God believed so much in free will as to let his children suffer then we should extend that same free will to all. Pastors and preachers should have free will to do as they please, and people can come and go to other congregations as they please. Remember christians, we wont be punished for the actions of another, and neither will not christians actually lol. furthermore, i don't think any straight non-christian has any business thinking his opinion on a matter that does not concern his or herself, matters. You're entitled to it, but the outcome of a such an argument will not affect you at all. the question is not whether homosexuality is a sin, it is, do we respect people who willfully sin? No man can live a day without sin. I masturbate sometimes (whoopdeedoo) which i think is a sin, so does that mean i don't get married either? Or is the forgiveness attained through the fight of such sin? Being gay is giving in, saying "you win". Now at the same time i'm trying to get the viewpoint of a christian gay person (since they're who this is really all about). A guilt from society as well as a guilt from your church! Man that sucks. That's one of satan's greatest tools-isolation. This isolation could rip apart a person's persona....sad. anyways, the answer is leave the word marriage alone!!

Because we do hate Jesus.

Not really. It's because there are a large amount of Christians that are in the mentality that it's them vs. the world. It doesn't matter what you believe because if it is not what they believe then you are somehow influencing them to sin.

A lot of Christians are extremely emotional about their faith therefore if you do not love Jesus then you must hate. What is most important is that you realize that none of this matters. As long as you develop your own relationship with yourself, Jesus, or some higher power your ok. Christians will do their thing, you do yours. All of us who do not believe in Jesus Christ could end up going to hell, most likely not.

I have been told that hell is a place without God. If God is the Christian God or even the Islamic God then I would rather be in hell. My God would never chose between people like that and I would not accept living in a kingdom controlled by a God like that. If that means living in hell for an eternity then so be it, better that than disregarding my own morals for some all powerful ruler.

Originally posted by Ian McLean
Well, as with many subjects, especially religion, the answer is false dichotomy.


If you don't accept, you deny.

If you don't love, you hate.

If you don't preach, you vilify.

Kinda the same as what Bush said: ''you are either with us or you are with the terrorists''.

But seriously, the reason is that there is a huge group of Christians, especially in America, who cannot think for themselves. They naively believe everything they are told by the church and the Bible and don't question anything. The same applies when it comes to Israel. The land of the ''chosen'' people right?

If these ignorant zealots would only think once for themselves and do some research on the situation, they would understand that what the Israel does is against all principles of Christianity, yet they claim to be good Christians.

Google Video Link

Originally posted by prototism
The fact of the matter is, the overt message of each sect is irrelevant; people themselves have perverted Christianity. It doesn't and shouldn't matter what sect they belong to.

That's the bit I can't follow. Some people believe in a perverted version of Christ's teaching, therefore everyone does?

To me it makes a huge difference whether someone belongs to a sect that plans abortion clinic bombings, demands that we not teach our children about evolution, and screams hate-filled messages at gay couples – or to a sect that accepts married gay priests, runs soup kitchens and homeless shelters, and provides their members with free counseling and/or aid when they're in crisis.

Call me crazy, but that's a really big difference to me. Of course there are a lot of churches in between those two also, but in my experience the weight is more toward the latter than the former.

Originally posted by defcon5
IMHO, because politically correct is really nothing more then peer pressure, when religion is a philosophical belief.

Do you really believe that to be generally true? That people are generally pressured into having 'politically correct' beliefs? That people couldn't possibly think they're just the right thing to believe or do? Do you not think these claims of 'peer pressure', 'force' and 'brainwashing' are a bit condescending and insulting? I mean, Christians tend to think that when they're accused of being pressured into Christianity or 'brainwashed'. Is this somehow different?

You could flip this around: people are pressured into religion. If you live in a small town where everyone else is religious, there's pressure there. If your family is religious, it's rare that they children have a say in it.

Its like asking why does Religion trump anything else in this world, it is because the Law of God supersedes the laws and opinions of man.

Really? Of course you mean your God, and your Laws of God here don't you? I mean, it's not as if you want Sharia Law or anything where you live, do you?

Yes.
I have seen it first hand. There was a preacher on TV at night in my local area, used to simply answer prayers, not really preach much. Anyway, he had a caller on one night who explained how he had escaped the “bondage” of a homosexual lifestyle, and so on. The Lobby down here went ballistic, they started a war on the show, and it was all pretty well documented as to their tactics in these situations. They are quite sneaky about it, and the minute they catch any of the fault for the situation, they play the "politically correct" guilt trip card. One of their first steps is they try and find out who provides the funding for the show so they protest their business in drag, putting on all the sexually explicit drama possible, to scare away their customers. The business normally folds and stops supporting the Christian organization.

In this instance they lost, because the show did not use any businesses for support...
However, some of their tactics were put right out there for all to see.

So before your story about the TV evangelism, there was no unified or organised persecution of homosexuals? They "started" this?

Eh......
Nope, don't pass go, and don't collect $200...
It did not start with Christianity,

I didn't say it (intolerance to homosexuals) started with Christianity. Can you point to where I did say that? However the fact remains that it's not as if Christians haven't gleefully taken up the baton, is it? I mean, it's not as if Christians generally are not happy to go along with it, is it or that Christians, generally, actually disagree with the issue of homophobia?

I mean you've had 2000 years of opportunity to stop religious borne-homophobia with a message of tolerance. So what happened? Where is it this message of tolerance if it's a case of another religion started it? Silly me, there isn't one!

it started with Judaism, and Muslims.

It started with Muslims? You mean the Muslims who follow an Islam that started about 600 years after Jesus' death? Oh right, I see.

Christ had very little to say about the subject, though he was quite clear that all sexual activity outside of marriage is sinful. Just go try and pull any of that bull crap over in the middle east and see how far they get. Oh, but thats right... the Christians over here in the US are easy targets, so lets pick on them some more.

As a matter of fact, name me one mainline religion that accepts Gay marriages?

Who has said that Christians are unique in this? You might not have realised, but I wasn't the one that actually introduced the issue homosexuality to this thread or placed in within a context of Christianity.

And most of the people who have done that stuff are not necessarily Christians, homophobia is not a religious theology.

And yet it's funny how you, like so many Christians, just leapt at the opportunity to use Jesus and the Bible to justify your beliefs. You say homophobia isn't a religious ideology? Well it might not be a specifically religious ideology, but a couple or paragraphs up, you did your best to make it one.

BTW you know what the Muslims do to folks in their countries? Funny I don't see them over there protesting, or picking on the Muslim religion like the do Christians.
Muslims are far, far, far more anti-homosexual then Christians are.

That maybe the case, the problem was that, firstly, I didn't create the thread to talk specifically about anti-homosexuality if only because it's too similar a ground to the other thread. I'm trying to avoid a repeat of this thread. I was actually anticipating some people people trying to turn this thread into that thread in an attempt to either derail it. Secondly, this thread was born out of specifically Christian responses (and lack of) in that other thread. Now, if there had been a similar Muslim-related thread, then I might be interested in this or even obliged to reply, but Muslims aren't what this is about.

[edit on 22-11-2008 by Merriman Weir]

I think this quote from Defcon5 speaks volumes:

Christians also know they are not always right, but we are forgiven

The concept of forgiveness of sin through Christ has imo often been misinterpreted or conveniently used to excuse a lot of bad behavior.

I have known Christians who feel that not doing more for those in need is the sin they must be forgiven for. These people are already doing more than their share of volunteer work yet they pray for forgiveness for not being there to help this child or that elderly person. This is foremost in their hopes and prayers. Imo a true Christian that follows the teachings of Jesus.

I have also known some Christians who need forgiveness for all the self-righteous judgments made daily on those they deem lesser in social, moral or racial standing. My dear sweet Grandma was of this persuasion.

Two diverse groups yet both declare their undying faith to the same Christ.
I don't think Christians often appreciate how truly diverse they are. If Christians cannot find common ground within Christianity how can there possibly be any level of understanding with those outside? The rest of us should not take it personally or expect to ever agree.

I gave up long ago on my Grandma she thought pretty much everyone except her congregation was going to hell.

Originally posted by MarrsAttax
The other thread the OP refers to was started by one christian who asked the question about why so many people on ATS 'hate Jesus'. The vast majority of posts were from people stating they didn't hate Jesus but they didn't like what some christians have done in his name. The OP of that thread even acknowledged that people didn't hate Jesus and took on board the criticisms against some christians. Now this OP has taken one statement by one christian and suddenly it's 'many christians' who hold this view. I think the OP of this thread is guilty of stereotyping christians in the same way as the OP of the other thread was guilty of stereotyping non-christians. That OP acknowledged their error.

[edit on 22/11/2008 by MarrsAttax]

Well as the OP is me...

I merely tried to mirror the phrasing of the other thread title when I started this thread. That's why I've used the word "many". I'm also very, very conscious of the fact that not all Christians have this problem either, so I was trying to differentiate from the absolute position of "all" Christians having this view. Which is actually markedly different from what you're actually accusing me of.

As to the other thread, that OP might have acknowledged that "error", however, the rest of the thread just seemed to carry on as if the point that 'people don't hate Jesus' wasn't being made. Therefore, as it wasn't being acknowledged or accepted, in that thread, it was the belief of "many" of the posters. It's why the thread generally just seemed to carry regardless with nary another acknowledgement that the basic premise of the thread was wrong that I'm interested in here.

As a Christian, I can honestly say I have never thought of anyone as hating Christ. I love Him, but when I hear others mock Him or deny His deity, I don't see that as hate. I see the denial as several things: ignorance of His history; confusion about His purpose; some people just don't have the desire to know HIm at all. Hate denotes passion. How can people who don't know something hate it? If they don't know Christ, there is no way they can feel passionately about Him. I can see how the Jews would have hated Him back in "the day". His total existence was foiling their supremacy and their legalism. Back then, they did hate Him enough to crucify Him (as per historical records of Jesus' crucifixion whether or not it is believed He was/is Holy) and it was a large group of people who passionately hated Him. But even the jews today, I don't feel that they hate Him. I supposed I am not understanding your post. I can also see why people would vehemently despise some "professing" Christians. Just because someone says they are Christian doesn't mean they are! When someone professes to be a Christian and acts in hateful ways, or is bigoted and judgemental, it is easy to have feelings of hatred toward that behavior.

Satan believed in Christ. I believe Satan knew Christ, but that doesn't make him a Christian. He hated Christ because Christ foiled his plans as well. But those are very specific examples.