Well, there's a current thread - that inspired this one - that I'd suggest not reading as it's bizarre to say the least.

i'm not claiming any of the things i'm suggesting are my opinion in particular, i'm really just addressing the questions/sentiments you posed in the OP.



When it comes to society, we'll have to agree to disagree with this. Undoubtedly it has basis and roots in Christianity, but I'm not sure how much influence it has now. I'm not sure where you're from and I can only speak for England, but the Christianity has very little influence now. Yes, you get people saying they're 'C of E' &c, but how many of them are familiar with the bible, go to church (aside from weddings and funerals), observe holy days (even know what or when they are) or generally act on the Christian message? How 'Christian' will this year's Christmas be for the bulk of Britain do you think?

I think too much of 'Christianity' actually runs counter to the way people (willingly) live their lives now. I think if they were forced to choose between the two, there wouldn't have been as many churches burned down since the 16th C.



I don't know whether you've read Jacques Derrida, but a lot of his work revolves around Western philosophy (and therefore society) and its predisposition to see things in binary terms. So, yes, I agree with this.



I disagree with this. I think it's actually atheists that are actually more vehement in their argument and prone to 'muddy the waters'. In a sense, people with religion, whether they agree or not, tend to have a commonality simply through belief in what amounts to a supernatural belief. Whereas atheists, not sharing that belief, often have to bring something completely different to the table in order to argue their point. Fairly often - although not always, as not all atheists are 'evangelical' in their (non)beliefs and feel no need to debate the issue - they bring science to the table to use as a debating tool. Nothing muddies religious waters like science!

Although that's not to say they are incompatible by any means.

[edit on 21-11-2008 by Merriman Weir]

In that thread, people weren't merely replying to the OP as people were making replies to 'sympathetic' posts made by other members.

Although, what you describe is a problem generally on this forum.

The only people that I've ever come across who claim to hate God or Jesus are the kind of people completely immersed in the black or death metal scenes. Actually hating Jesus or God makes for little sense to be honest. 'Hate' is a pretty strong feeling and generally, people who've thought long enough and hard enough on Jesus and God in a critical or negative sense tend to come out thinking there can be no Jesus or God.

Those that actually think in such strongly negative terms but still think that Jesus or God exist are a very, very small fringe and I'd have thought prescribed to some kind of Satanism (the non-Uncle Anton kind) or at least related to the black/death metal culture I mentioned earlier.

yeah, thats what i meant, sorry, i confuse myself sometimes.

There are many people who are strongly vested in their religion.

If you criticize one of their beliefs, say book burning because they believe that a certain author promotes Satanism, they cannot understand your arguments.

It is easier in their mind to say that you hate Jesus, then it is to accept that your beliefs are different then theirs(because their beliefs and the only correct ones) but that your beliefs may still be in line with the teachings of Jesus.

I think that many times organized religion gets in the way of people seeking the path that was taught by Jesus.

I've me people who claim to hate God or Jesus simply because they believe that one or the other is responsible for some disaster in their life. These are the one I am referring to although I suppose the black or death metal folks would fit here too.

IMHO, because politically correct is really nothing more then peer pressure, when religion is a philosophical belief. Its like asking why does Religion trump anything else in this world, it is because the Law of God supersedes the laws and opinions of man.


Yes.
I have seen it first hand. There was a preacher on TV at night in my local area, used to simply answer prayers, not really preach much. Anyway, he had a caller on one night who explained how he had escaped the “bondage” of a homosexual lifestyle, and so on. The Lobby down here went ballistic, they started a war on the show, and it was all pretty well documented as to their tactics in these situations. They are quite sneaky about it, and the minute they catch any of the fault for the situation, they play the "politically correct" guilt trip card. One of their first steps is they try and find out who provides the funding for the show so they protest their business in drag, putting on all the sexually explicit drama possible, to scare away their customers. The business normally folds and stops supporting the Christian organization.

In this instance they lost, because the show did not use any businesses for support...
However, some of their tactics were put right out there for all to see.


Eh......
Nope, don't pass go, and don't collect $200...
It did not start with Christianity, it started with Judaism, and Muslims.
Christ had very little to say about the subject, though he was quite clear that all sexual activity outside of marriage is sinful. Just go try and pull any of that bull crap over in the middle east and see how far they get. Oh, but thats right... the Christians over here in the US are easy targets, so lets pick on them some more.

As a matter of fact, name me one mainline religion that accepts Gay marriages?


And most of the people who have done that stuff are not necessarily Christians, homophobia is not a religious theology. BTW you know what the Muslims do to folks in their countries? Funny I don't see them over there protesting, or picking on the Muslim religion like the do Christians.
Muslims are far, far, far more anti-homosexual then Christians are.

reply to post by Merriman Weir

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First off, thanks for starting this thread, Merriman, because just reading it has made some stuff a little clearer to me.

I think a few really good points have been made explaining why some Christians can't seem to hear "I don't hate Jesus, I just hate organized religion".

1) the need to set things up as a false dichotomy – and those of us on the atheist/agnostic side are guilty of this too.

2) sometimes I have heard people (not usually atheists or agnostics, obviously) say that they don't hate Jesus, they hate God. From a Christian perspective, that doesn't really make sense.

3) just as atheists look at believers with condescension (they need the "crutch" of religion), so do believers look at atheists with condescension (we are afraid to accept that there is a God). So both sides have a hard time believing anything the other side says; they just dismiss it as rationalizing their belief/disbelief because they're "in denial" about their "real motivation".

I think the concept of "denial" might be among the most insidious and nasty concepts introduced by daytime-TV-style pop psychology.

As for what happened on that other post, I pretty much covered my view of it yesterday. It ended up being more about the OP's feelings than about the feelings of those who he asked the question of. But that's really not that uncommon, on ATS or in life

Now I think I'll go see how Lucid Lunacy and defcon are getting along

[edit on 11/21/08 by americandingbat]

I don't hate Jesus, not at all.
I loath poser Christians.
Real Christians, love 'em. Posers, can fry and I'll bring the oil.
Someone else mentioned the organized religion aspect, which is what creates poser Christians, so yeah, I'll have to agree with them.

What are you trying to say? That a Religious Theology is the same as a Lifestyle Choice?

Na-ah...
A Religious Theology DICTATES your lifestyle choices. If it does not then you don't have a very strong faith in that theology. In Christian terms someone like this would be said to be a “lukewarm” or “wishy-washy” Christian.


Race is something that someone is born into, its not something that someone chooses to engage in. Apples and oranges. Heck I am discriminated against because I chose to smoke, but I accept that my choice to do that has certain ramifications and stigmas attached to it, if I chose to continue doing it. Are you going to say that I am oppressed the same as the African Americans are?


As I said before, even if you are, that is not really my concern or business as long as you keep it out of things that are my business, like what my kids get taught in school.


That is because you are trying to make equal two things that are not equal.


They are sexual preferences, and thus exactly the same thing.


Then you need to check again, marriage as a tradition comes from Religion. It predates any existing laws on this Earth today.


Then don't call it marriage and don't ask to do it in church, that is what many Christians get up in arms about.


It depends, you can respect everyone to a point, but not what everyone does. Were you taught to respect people who were criminals? Drug Dealers? Where do you want to draw the line.


Guilt trip again? You think that is going to really effect my feelings on this?


Then you did not understand a thing you were taught. God Loves everyone, its sin that he hates. God does not “send” people to hell, but rather he cannot allow anything sinful into his presence. You missed much of the point of Christianity obviously.


Again, God does not damn you, your sins do that.


Again you did not study when you were a Christian, which is why you never really understood it, unless you were a Catholic. You are talking about Works vs Grace. You cannot turn in enough boxtops to get into heaven, you need to read up on how Grace works.


Universalism is a neat concept, but I would rather not have to count on it for my salvation.


If you truely read my first post you would see that it was not Christianity that did this, but rather the Roman Catholic Church. Many protestant religions consider the RCC to be the Beast of Revelations, including me.


Well I am sorry for that, but I am trying to be truthful as possible.


I don't know a single Christian that thinks this way. I would not wish my worst enemy to go to hell, I don't think that anyone deserves that from my human perspective. Hell itself is an interesting concept that I could write a lot on, but it goes beyond my time to spend on here today. As to respect, I can respect certain things but I cannot respect certain actions. Christians also know they are not always right, but we are forgiven.


And maybe you were doing something that he would not have.


I would tell them its not really my business, which its not any more then who my friends pick up at the bar this weekend. However, they still know that if they asked me about it, I would tell them the truth, that its a sin. Kind of a don't ask don't tell policy, cause if you ask you know already what your going to get for an answer. Believe me I have sinned many times in my life as well, but i try not to make a habit of it.


I believe I covered the topic of the self-centered/self-worship lifestyle already in this thread somewhere. It might be in the thread that originally spawned this one though.

[edit on 11/21/2008 by defcon5]

reply to post by jd140

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A normal King James Version in Esword.
You can get a copy here, with all the bibles you could ever want to download for free:
E-Sword

The thing is that there is lots of evidence that homosexuality (as in, being attracted to someone of the same sex) is also something that you are born into. It is not something you choose. It is definitely not something you choose when you are an adult legally responsible for your choices.

They choose to have relationships, just as we heterosexuals choose to have relationships. I might like to be married someday, but I don't believe in God. Is that a problem?

You may be right that the legal system has no business trying to decide who can and can't marry – then we should remove all mention of marriage from the civil institutions and leave only civil unions for all couples, homosexual or heterosexual. And let each individual church, synagogue, etcetera decide on their own whether gays can marry under their auspices.

Gays aren't looking to get married in your church – they are looking to get married in civil services or in churches that accept them. That should be their right, if it is my right as an agnostic to marry.

Brilliant! Bravo! Bravo! Seriously, if this was explained to the whole world, we could all worship in peace, acknowledging that our beliefs systems are just that, belief systems. We invented them in the first place because we knew enough about how the mind works, in order to make various maps to realization re-connection, and divine experience. Some have been diluted and some not, but all are fully functional, and true in their own right.

"It doesnt matter how you seek god, just respect the ways of others, and make sure you find it"-Reality

whatever..

you just made this thread because you hate Jesus,
and yer going to burn in fire and brimstone for eternity because of h8in' on my main man Yeshua.

YESHUA DE SON HE PAID DE RAN'SOM, YESHUA DE SON HE PAID DE RAN'SOM

reply to post by defcon5

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Awesome awesome post defcon5. You really nailed it. I am weary of people making these broad brushstrokes that Christians are paranoid homophobes. And honestly, I have read a lot of the threads here and don't see this overt thing that Christians accuse others of hating Christ? However I must point out that there are some here that make it a point to say really tacky blasphemous things about Him, a guy who never laid a stone in anyone's path.

True Christians don't hate homosexuals. Some people seem to confuse 2.1 billion people (one-third of the world population) with a few fringe religious fanatics who stand on the curb with homemade signs; you can usually identify these types readily by the shoprag hanging out of their gas tanks. Real Christians aren't about that; they are handing a few dollars to the beggar at the intersection (and letting God be his judge); they are standing in soup lines serving hungry people; they are wiping the sweat from their brow in jungle villages as they dig wells for fresh water, or innoculate babies, or nurse the sick. They are reading to the AIDS patients at a hospice, or writing letters for them, or just helping them with personal business that they are too sick to take care of themselves; they are flying their own planes using their own gas on their own time to pick up kids in isolated areas and fly them to top hospitals, where top surgeons/doctors donate their services. The list of World Christian Charities is mind boggling, there are literally thousands. One that comes to mind is The Good Samaritans; they are ALL volunteer physicians and registered nurses who are available nearly everyday in most any city; they treat you as though you were royalty, even giving you any prescription medicine you may need. They have a prayer counselor who also prays for you to find peace, comfort and wellness. (Some would call that religious indoctrination, sadly.) Now, certainly it isn't only Christians who do these things, but I would venture to say that if every Christian suddenly vanished from the earth, it wouldn't be a very nice place to be anymore. But I know, that idea just brought a smile to lots of ATS member faces.

That's my two cents worth.

[edit on 21-11-2008 by Bombeni]

reply to post by defcon5

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I fear you have, as many christians do, taken the statement completely out of context. Ghandi was NOT saying that he did not like ALL CHRISTIANS. Just the ones that DID NOT ACT CHRIST LIKE! Period. End of the whole rant and discussion you just so thoughtfully put together.

You see? This is the problem. Christians (I being a former established church Christian but now one who believes that the message Christ put out there is the best thing about Christianity and NOT THE CHURCH ITSELF) like to jump to quick conclusions. I notice this action to this very day. Any time some statement in the Bible or some event is questioned the 'wall' goes up. My friends and family become irate and irritated. They are absolutely stunned that I simply can't swallow what they are saying all on 'FAITH ALONE' instead of my own personal interpretation.

So, once again, a Christian has jumped to the wrong conclusion about a statement. Though it was a nice little speech, I must sadly say it was misguided.

The Episcopalian Church in the U.S. has gay and lesbian priests, some of whom live with their partners. I bet if it were legal, they would get married It's one of the big issues right now between the U.S. church and the global Anglican Communion.

Source

[edit on 11/21/08 by americandingbat]

I'm glad you brought this up .I watched Mike Huckabee on the Rachel Maddow show yesterday

he was pimping his book Do the Right Thing ,which is about social engineering based on conservative Christian beliefs

Now generally I don't hate conservative Christian beliefs ,how ever he was bantering with her and she said she would read his book as she is Liberal Left, and liberals are known to be obsessive readers and he said that the trouble with Liberals is they read ,BUT THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY READ!


which to exemplifies the problem you bring up with this thread which is no matter how many times you carefully explain to Christians or members even of some other faiths ,that it isn't their GOD you hate at all ,it's they're cockamamie skewed take on reality , and selective cherry picking of facts that is the problem .
they can't hear you ,LALALALA

I didn't read all the replies yet, but I think the main reason is psychological.
I suppose you could call it a form of paranoia, and it seems to be prevolent in any group which holds beliefs that the followers consider important.
For example, many Democrats I've talked to think that Republicans are the 'elite' who are running everything.
Likewise, many Republicans I've talked to think that Democrats are the elite.
Muslims think the world is out to get them.
Christians think their views are being ignored and that if we reject their message we hate them and Jesus.
I've experienced this myself.
As an atheist, I've experienced many times feeling like everyone in the U.S. is a Christian but me.
Of course this isn't true, it's only about 75%.