I'm gnostic christian. I deal with this crap all the time. It boils down to 1 simple thing.

I can talk about Jesus all day long, talk about his teachings and such, and christians will love me. They will say - you have such a good understanding of things.

The moment they find out I do not worship Jesus, and when they find out I do not believe the whole "You have to believe Jesus died on the cross for your sins" bit of mainstream religion(which are the words of Paul, not Jesus) - suddenly I am the devil. I believe he died showing people the path, and that the path and teachings were important. No no no they will say, you can do anything you want so long as you believe in that 1 thing. If you believe in that 1 thing, then you are christian, and if you don't believe in that 1 thing then it doesn't matter what else you say - you are wrong.

In a recent thread, I was even quoting Jesus in my responses, and just as a test I didn't mention it was the words of Jesus - got called a liar.

So why do they view anything against Jesus as hate? Because they are filled with hate. They live in such a dualistic mindset that they hate anything which goes against the symbolism of Jesus. As such, in their mind if you are not in agreement with them, they assume based on their own perception/hate that you must hate as well. They simply can not see past their own hate, and they will project that hatred on you. What you are seeing is their own hatred for you.

There is 1 figure in the bible who acts like mainstream Christians do. And it surely is not Jesus. Ghandi is right, christians do not act like christ, they act like and do serve Satan. They are blinded by symoblism, dualism and hate.

Your best bet is just to point out their hatred. They will never admit such hatred and start talking about being tolerant while you go to hell. Of course, they just like to claim they are tolerant because they figure a higher power will be doing their bidding. Little do they realize they are doing the biddings of those who have gained power.



[edit on 21-11-2008 by badmedia]

to a certain extent can't the same thing be postulated about the raft of threads this thread responds to? is it not reasonable to assume that the majority of non-christians replying to the "why does everyone hate jesus" type threads are going to be the reasonable type that don't hate jesus.

much like rabid christians that hate anything except jesus, including themselves, rabid "atheists" hate everything attached to religion,including the founders and, often, christianity in particular. it often feels that both the "reasonable christians" and the "reasonable non-christians" are drowned out by these opposing forces.

you can go to a thread and speak for yourself saying it is christianity or christian teaching you hate and i'll believe you personally but you can't speak for everyone on this point.

then there's another point, people who belong to a christian church honestly believe that the teachings of that church are jesus' teachings. if they didn't believe this they wouldn't claim to belong to that church. there is genuinely no difference from their point of view between saying "i hate church teachings" and "i hate jesus".

then there is the issue, from a christian perspective, that revolves around the disparity between the level of hatred and the broad brush used to paint christianity against personal experience.

this disparity between the hatred expressed by athiests and the reality of christianity is so large it probably deserves it's own thread but i think a reasonable discussion on the idea is......unlikely. i'm not eager to throw that cat amongst the pidgons.

reply to post by defcon5

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Look I find you words offensive and ignorant to the whole of the issue concerning homosexuality, and the civil rights issues concerning it. So let's just leave it at that, and perhaps we can discuss it further in another thread, as there are plenty atm

To get in a final word. Naturally...



'Make' being the focal word. It's enforced. It's not passive. It is manifested through oppressive actions towards their life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, and all that traditional jazz we were also founded on.

What you do not understand is that the "homosexual agenda" is just Equality.

[edit on 21-11-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]

reply to post by badmedia

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Christ actually directly attacked certain things that showed disrespect for his teachings and the church of his father. If I may point out one specific instance:


Gnosticism tried, unsuccessfully, to usurp Christian theology very early on while still in its infancy. I doubt that Christ would have had a very cheery disposition on the subject.

reply to post by defcon5

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jesus was a gnostic himself, start a thread on the issue and i'll proove it, but an arguement over who is correct in this thread is hardly on topic.

I'm not sure. You've actually quoted an instance where someone actually said 'well, that "many Christians" probably doesn't apply to you' - which was my quote. However that really wasn't happening in the dozen or so pages of the other thread.



I agree, there are some "rabid athiests" and I agree that it's the reasonable, Christians and non-Christians that get drowned out. I'll add 'tolerant', 'accepting' and 'inclusive' to your 'reasonable'.



Here I disagree. I agree with the notion that Jesus and Jesus' teachings are in a sense synonymous, but even so, for most people it's the actual delivery of those teachings and the way they are sometimes thrust, unsolicited on people that is an issue.



Well, as you seem to be generally interested in the notion of balance or fairness with regard to your other points, surely this can be flipped around too? There's a lot of Christians that paint with very broad brushes and absolutes.



I think you're focusing on "athiests" far too much here. This thread seems to have a lot of 'religious' people on it, that whilst not Christian, still 'religious' all the same.

[edit on 21-11-2008 by Merriman Weir]

Which does not mean that it HAS to be acceptable in Christian Theology. In Christian Theology, it is a sin, the same as any other sin, including having a heterosexual relationship out of wedlock or with another person’s wife. Like it or not, this country WAS founded on core Christian values, as many of the Original settlers came here escape repression by the Roman Catholic Church. You want to exercise your sexual freedom, by all means feel free to in this country, just don’t try to ram your sexual preferences down me or my family’s throat in trying to justify them. Your rights end where they start to interfere with my rights not to have to hear about your sexual preferences, including in schools.
.
PS… Don’t bother with the, “its offensive” guilt trip crap with me. You’ll not make me feel bad for not being “politically correct”, one iota on this subject, because that group brought their war to Christianity, not the other way around.

reply to post by defcon5

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I am not trying to do anything to you.

I am open for debate on a relevant thread, or even in the official debate forum. If you so care

Why does 'religiously correct' trump 'politically correct'? Why are you so adamant you're right?

As far as homosexuals bringing "their war to Christianity, not the other way around"; do you really believe that? Historically, Christianity has always villainised homosexuality, long before there was a unified front regarding equality for homosexuals. That's been a relatively new development, whereas homosexuals have been murdered, beaten and attempted to be 'cured' of their homosexuality for a hell of a lot longer.

reply to post by pieman

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Done:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
I'll get to this after a bit though, I have to finish up here at work quick.

reply to post by Merriman Weir

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to be honest, i haven't actually read the latest thread hanging around the recent posts list, i've read threads of simular sentiment and can't face reading the same arguments all over again.

i'm not claiming any of the things i'm suggesting are my opinion in particular, i'm really just addressing the questions/sentiments you posed in the OP.

there are many people painting a great number of things in very broad strokes. part of this has to do with analytical skill but most of it is laziness. whatever the reason, it leaves us with a grossly inaccurate picture of the world. i am aware of this.

the trouble is, the christian outlook is based in belief, so belief becomes a personal truth. our whole society, like it or not, is based largely on a christian outlook. science may be more influential at present, however it makes itself removed from normality while making us lazy about inquiry and thought, and so we revert to standard, which is a christian (perhaps religious) outlook.

we, as a society, believe in a diametrically opposed argument between belief and non-belief with hatred of every aspect of the opposition intrinsic to both sides.

the expression of this is evident in the fact that despite a majority of posts stating no hate for christ, this does not comply to the individuals personal truth. in order for these statements to be inserted into a personal truth they are assumed to be an individual belief.

perhaps i did focus a little on athiests, but non-believers tend to be gentler in their arguement towards christianity and so aren't so prone to muddy the waters.

[edit on 21/11/08 by pieman]

Defcon, after reading your replies up to this point, I can only conclude that you've got your feet firmly cemented to complete and utter irrationality. I tried to reason with you, I really did. And weren't you one of the fools in the "Beyond the Void" thread who weakly protested my assertions, only to retreat after having your pants handed to you? Ah yes--that was you. I'm seeing a pattern here.

I don't know if it's brave or foolish to offer to discuss these issues with you. Godspeed, LucidLunacy, Godspeed. And put your waders on--you'll need 'em.

Why so many Christians do not understand?Accept that people don't hate Jesus?

Well because Jesus is the bread and butter of Christianity without their Idol it will be not object of worship.

So any body that can not understand the Christian idolatry is a Christan hater and Jesus hater.

Do I hate Jesus, No, I hate what Christianity has made of the Idol call Jesus.

No I have MY opinion on the matter, and I am entitled to that opinion. This is not a black and white Fact based thread after all, its about personal beliefs. Or maybe you could call them “Theory’s”…


Right, I see that you responded to me while I was soundly asleep, so I just answered you back in there. I think that you will find that the pants have handed right back to you. Next time read what someone actually posted, not what you read into their posting.


Yeah, the pattern that you and I don’t agree on certain things.


Nah… No scientists in that thread trying to play “butt cover” by twisting the English language around, so we should do fine. Thanks for the advice anyway…

I'll get the the rest later, back to work here for me.

[edit on 11/21/2008 by defcon5]

First time I read that version. My bible states that the tables he over threw were the tables of tax collectors who was over taxing his people in a place of worship, a church, which would piss off any preacher.

Which version did you find your scripture in.

When I was a Christian I remember many pastors saying quite condescending things like, the average non-beleiver "hates" Jesus because he hasn't been "Saved" and still feels the sting of his unforgiven sin, and so can't bear to look at the Savior that has laid down his life for them; things like "love Jesus hate Christians" is a white lie to cover that up.

I think many Christians work on the false assumption that everyone truly wants to be "saved," and that they will naturally gravitate towards Christianity once they run through every other worldy alternative.

So they interprete many things as "hating Jesus" because they think a person is trying not to admit that they need him.

Two answers:

1: people don't understand that there is a huge difference between organized religion and Jesus and his teachings. I for one loath Organized Religion and am not religious at all, but I have nothing but high regard for the words of Jesus. I'm not convinced that, even if he really existed, that he was some son of a God or something, but there's a great deal of truth to be had there otherwise.

2: people simply don't READ the replies in a thread and simply reply to the OP. So therefore, the entire thread could be people saying that they aren't religious, don't like religion, but think Jesus is cool - and you would still get replies from people talking about how everyone hates jesus since they didn't bother to listen to what anyone else had to say.

It's a horrible problem on these forums and this is a great example of why it is a problem. It turns a thread into spam rather than a true discussion.

reply to post by defcon5

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I was happy sitting on the sidelines and taking in the different viewpoints until i read this. I think you need to take a step back and read that line you typed. I'll just come back with "Christianity is a religion, not a lifestyle choice, and therefore does not deserve the same respect." You know. Just to get you thinking about it.



Are African Americans doing the same thing because they feel "guilty" for being black? It's not about guilt. It's about being different and struggling to be accepted as a normal f'ing person. No, I'm not gay so don't run off and get your pitchforks and torches yet. I just find it curious that you can have such..."selective respect" to those groups that you feel deserving of it. When you try to back it up with reasoning it STILL doesn't really make sense.



I doubt it. Gay...ism isn't a fetish. This argument isn't as extreme, but the logic fits well with others I've seen that compare gays to murderers.



Last I checked the Church didn't have a monopoly on marriages. I myself was married by the state by a justice of the peace. They're not necessarily asking for rights to invade your church. Just rights to be legally considered a family unit.



Close. I was taught to respect everyone. Every time you rub me the wrong way, you will lose a bit though. For the record I was raised a Christian and I still have an inherent respect for the values and morals it embodies. But I just couldn't wrap my head around the idea that God would hate me for swearing, not going to church to worship, etc. My stance on the issue is "I do my best to lead a good life, be a productive member of society, and instill values and morals in my children." If God is going to damn me for swearing like a sailor and never going to church along the way, then he doesn't deserve my worship.

This is the beef I have with organized Christianity in general. I honestly don't know how people do it. Why would you readily accept the notion that the people you love more than anything could burn in eternal damnation just because they "sinned" - maybe they just didn't go to church enough. That's a lot of anxiety to just willfully take on in the name of faith.

Maybe some of us will have some learning to do or issues to work through (hell) before we're allowed in, but I'd like to think that we all end up in a heaven of sorts. I prefer to think of all beliefs as ice cream. Pick a flavor that works for you and go with it. Religion is just a little too nutty for my taste - I like chocolate chips.



Well to be blunt the gays have a better track record of not burning people at the stake for "heresy". Seriously, though I'm not sure what "agenda" your talking about.

Really, I'm sorry for helping the thread down this path, but I do think some of what I contributed pertains to the topic. And Defcon, I'm not out to attack you specifically, but you were the only one that chimed in on the Christian front and some of what you said I found a little offensive.

The crux of the issue is not gays vs. Christians. It's this attitude of "We are right, everyone else is wrong - we'll pretend to "respect" you if you're different, but it's only a word to us - we actually believe that you're deserving of eternal torture. Sometimes we'll even tell you so to your face." I don't think Jesus would approve.

I see respect like this: If someone said they think they're gay, I might tell them to explore that and If they decided they were then I would be supportive - because I respect that. If you can't support something, it's a given that you don't actually respect it. Accept that other people live their lives the way they see fit, and most of the time they don't need or want anyone else telling them they're doing it wrong.

[edit on 21-11-2008 by an0maly33]

Some people do hate Jesus while others hate God and still others hate both. Many people believe in neither. Some people hate Christians while other hate Christianity and still others hate all religions.

The majority, IMHO just dislike the way that so many people act while wearing the banner of Christian. Face it, we as humans tend to generalize. I see it all over this site. Start a thread on anything that includes group A performing an act on group B. Both groups get vilified and victimized depending on the posters point of view. Yet the thread is only about group A and group B not the entire population of the representative groups.

Churches preach that to not accept Jesus is to deny Him. To not love Him is to hate Him. Most people don’t stop to think that there is a middle ground which is apathy. Many people just don’t care.

Most people know the Gospel which is that Christ died for our sins. They have the choice to accept this or reject it. Yet many churches have the notion that when Jesus said to preach the Gospel in the entire world, it gave them free reign to criticize everyone who believes differently than they believe. Churches should be places where the beliefs of that religion are taught to the people of that religion. It should be a place where people of the same belief can come together for fellowship. But most of all, it should be a place where the people can come together to praise and worship their deity. IMHO, a Christian church should be teaching Christians how to be Christ like.

Instead of “Deny Ignorance,” maybe we should change the motto to “Indulge Emotions.” I see more posts and even entire threads which are nothing more than emotional responses. People need to quit getting offended so easily and start thinking a little more analytically. Christians need to get rid of the urge to defend their belief. It’s a belief, for crying out loud! It’s not something you have to defend. Stop beating people over the head with the Bible. Most people here could care less what the Bible has to say and you are not going to convert anyone.

There is a way to have good religious discussions without getting emotional, calling names or dismissing other people’s beliefs.

Ah, I hate to rain on the gleeful parade, but alas--my skirt is still securely on. You'll find my reply to your ambitious but poorly executed response in the other thread.

This will be my last response to you here regarding this subject, as we've been dangerously close to derailing this thread already. For the record, I ain't mad at cha--just in violent disagreement .

[edit on 21/11/08 by paperplanes]