An open letter to Creationists

reply to post by FSBlueApocalypse

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Sorry just seen your reply thanks.

But there is that dam question of time isn't there and lets face it we don't understand or you and I would be the first to go back and check this lot out....

Do you think we will ever get that chance ...LOL

Hell it would be interesting though wouldn't it?

Then at least we would all have proof!!!!

[edit on 21-11-2008 by The Matrix Traveller]

Ok reading back through the posts about we have mapped it all the way back to within a second of the big bang. That makes sense sort of...but the actual big bang and what caused it. That's what doesn' t make sense. I do believe in god but am not a creationist and I do read quite a bit. Last book on this subject was "The God Delusion". Thought that was a brilliant book by the way.

There is no proof that God exists but on the other hand there's no proof that he doesn't.


Again, I still feel that believing in god does not make you a creationist. Creationism is really more defined by the details and faulty science and believing that everything that's written in the bible is true. We know that it's not.

reply to post by amazing

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Science doesn't have all the answers. It's trying to, but it doesn't yet.
Current thought about the big bang is that our universe is probably leak from another universe. Possibly the result of a collapsing universe? It's a tough question to answer. As tough as dark matter, and as inponderable as dark energy. There is still a lot out there to find out.
Same with evolution - all the time the non-evolutionists will fall back on the fact that we havent observed a 'new' animal. We haven't been aware of evolution long enough to witness a new animal!! It takes hundreds of generations, if not thousands. I have no doubt that in 1000 years time there will be very few people who can deny the proof of evolution. We've seen speciation occur, we just need to watch the accumulation of multiple speciation events to see the rise of new creatures.

Adaptation yes, evolution well.... ????

How do we Prove whether it is evolution, or Adaptation ???

I know we have evolutionists but are there any Adaptationists ???

If such a name exists?

I go for adaptation myself; acceptance of Life, and Intelligence !

And about that question!

What the Hell produces time ?????

Why doesn't any one come forward, to educate me on this annoying question.

Look, what the Hell produces a future.

If No future no Movement, No Movement and all is static!

Simple, just give me the answer, all you intelligent primates out there.

I would have thought one of you could give the answer, on what produces the future, from one second to one day to one month.

Something produces it?????

As I have already said, No future, No Universe, unless it is Instant Evolution of Time...

Come On, think about it!!!!

When your head is on the Pillow tonight, remember this nasty little old man, who has asked this ugly question, and see if you can find an intelligent answer for me????

I want to be Educated !!!!

Look, I am giving you Primates out there a chance here, to educate me by showing your knowledge !!!

But You and I both Know, Primates don't understand Time at all, otherwise we would be enjoying Time Travel right Now, and The Truth of he Matter is, We Aren't !!!!

Why Not????

Yes, I guess it does have something to do with Ignorance and our Understanding, or the total Lack of Understanding, of the world and Universe.

With all this knowledge I see on the net and we can't even cross a Galaxy in a few hours or minutes!

The only reason you would say it is impossible is because of being Uninformed regarding Understanding of you little planet and that Universe You so much desire to explore and tell the universal community how it all should be.

See what a big Joke us Primates are ????

Guess we are all stuck in this Zoo for a couple more hundred years yet until we stop playing with bones and get down to something a little more intelligent.

As for me I am probably the most Ignorant of all...

But then again I am Ignorance and I am Knowledge.....

To them that know me !



[edit on 22-11-2008 by The Matrix Traveller]

See, this is the kind of ignorant garbage that sums up the creationist movement.

1) The word "proof" is never used in science. Ever. No scientist will tell you that any theory is proven, but based on all available evidence we can assume certain things to be true. A subtle, but important, distinction.

2) Evolution is not "one creature giving life to another." You're spouting off Hovind's "dogs create dogs" junk now. Evolution is the change in the frequency of alleles in the gene pool over time. Say it with me: evolution is the change in the frequency of alleles in the gene pool over time.


The laws of thermodynamics is one of those things creationists throw around a lot, but don't really understand. Explain the laws of thermodynamics, which of them is important to your claim, and what it means for creation/evolution.


We have:
-Intermediate forms, full fossil histories
-Observations of change in the frequency of alleles in gene pools, via natural selection
-How about this one: That 99% of our DNA is shared with other species of modern primates.

Your evidence:
-A 2000 year old book


Direct quote from Hovind. That's pathetic.

And the progression would be more like "dogs, like all other animals, share a common ancestor with single-celled life forms arising from organic compounds formed in the volatile environment of early earth."

Nice straw man argument. As for your quote-source Hovind, the man is not qualified to speak on Evolution at all. His "degree" is from a diploma mill and even that is in nothing related to science. Even scientists who are Christians, such as Ken Miller, think his arguments are ridiculous.

Why is there hostility towards Creationists? Well, for one thing, if I don't "believe in" evolution I don't become a minion of Satan. If evolution and similar scientific theories were a pizza, most scientists would be content to allow me to slice it up and take the pieces I wanted, and at worst perhaps think to themselves a bit smugly that I'll probably be back for the rest later on. Many of the creationists (Christians?), on the other hand, insist that I must take their whole pie or none of it, all at once, and if I don't take the whole pie I'm evil, anti-Christian, under the influence of the devil, a 'deceiver', and so on.

I don't like either-or choices, yes-or-no questions, or being trapped between a rock and a hard place and forced to choose one or the other. I don't like being pigeon-holed or stereotyped as something bad because the only thing I really know is that I don't know very much. I like freedom, and options, and space to think, and multiple choice or even essay questions.

Science tries to share what it perceives as knowledge and understanding of the world, and may consider me ignorant or uneducated if I don't accept their theories and knowledge. I can refute the "law" of gravity if I want, but I'll just end up cussing it the next time I trip and fall or drop something. Gravity is self-evident. It explains things that happen in a way that makes sense. Believing in gravity doesn't require faith, it simply requires being observant of how the world works and having a name to apply to something I already know through observation - things FALL when nothing is holding them up!

Religion and Creationism, on the other hand, are counterintuitive. If there's an intelligent being running the show, he sure isn't running it the way I would. To say that he works in mysterious ways beyond our understanding is a convenient copout, in my opinion, especially when coupled with the concept of humanity being created "in his image." Furthermore, if I don't accept those beliefs on faith, I become not only ignorant, but evil. And therein, in my opinion, lies the "hostility" towards creationists.

It is not I, the person who isn't sure what to believe but does tend to find some merit in science and the theory of evolution, who insists that the Bible has to explain everything or it's nothing. There are some valuable and valid moral principles and lessons contained in the Bible which I have no trouble accepting. But if I don't buy the WHOLE package, it's not good enough.

I feel that I'm beginning to ramble and yet I'm still not sure if I've accurately represented my point. It is the Creationists who demand that I accept the Bible as infallible Truth, 100%, period, and accepting only half of it, or 80%, is just not good enough. Science (evolution), on the other hand, is basically unconcerned if I agree with most of it but still have issues with how dinosaurs developed feathers and became chickens, or question the lack of a definitive "missing link" between primate and human.

One final side note and then I'm done. At the last place I lived, we tilled up a nice area and planted a garden, only to be informed that a horse had once been buried in that exact spot. We, however, found nothing, not even a bone or a bit of hoof. Have you ever watched a dog eat a bone? How they can completely destroy something as hard as bone is a mystery to me, but they do it. My point is that most animals, in fact the great majority of animals who die, do not become fossils. Only a tiny percentage die under the right circumstances to become fossilized, and because of that it makes perfect sense to me that the fossil record contains examples of primarily the most common and plentiful creatures of each time. Transitional animals, missing links, and the like are not found simply because there weren't very many of them.

Pterosaurs, although they flew, were completely unrelated to birds, and were decendants from the lizards - but this is another example of evolution producing flight. It is much easier to see the evolution to flight in pterosaurs than birds.
Feathers do a number of adventageous things; color, to help with both hiding from hunters, and hiding to catch prey, courtship, but also they are very good at retaining and dissapating heat, and may well have helped in their heat regulation, which would have been a very helpfull survival function. There are numerous thoughts on the evolution of feathers, but their help in small creatures being able to jump to higher places cannot be understated. Bigger and bigger feathers, and bigger and bigger jumps, and eventually flight, from tree-top to tree-top.

paleontology.edwardtbabinski.us...

A missing link between primates and advanced primates?
There are missing links all over the fossil record, but that doesn't invalidate people making educated guesses at what should be there. Indeed, scientists have made predictions about what should be found at what time period, and sure enough, fossils turn up that are very similar.

news.bbc.co.uk...

I don't get it, even Darwin himself said he was wrong...

Lloyd Pye has written an essay that completely dismantles the theory of evolution however, he does not believe it was God but rather aliens.
Its too large to copy and paste more than an excerpt but is certainly worth reading, Enjoy.

"Nearly all domesticated plants are believed to have appeared between10,000 and 5,000 years ago, with different groups coming to different parts of the world at different times. Initially, in the so-called “Fertile Crescent” of modern Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon came wheat, barley, and legumes, among others. Later on, in the Far East, came wheat, millet, rice, and yams. Later still, in the New World, came maize (corn), peppers, beans, squash, tomatoes and potatoes. Many have “wild” predecessors that were apparently a starting point for the domesticated variety, but others—like many common vegetables— have no obvious precursors. But for those that do, such as wild grasses, grains, and cereals, how they turned into wheat, barley, millet, rice, etc., is a profound mystery.

No botanist can conclusively explain how wild plants gave rise to domesticated ones. The emphasis there is on “conclusively.” Botanists have no trouble hypothesizing elaborate scenarios in which Neolithic (New Stone Age) farmers somehow figured out how to hybridize wild grasses and grains and cereals, not unlike Gregor Mendel when he cross-bred pea plants to figure out the mechanics of genetic inheritance. It all sounds so simple and so logical, almost no one outside scientific circles ever examines it closely.

Gregor Mendel never bred his pea plants to be anything other than pea plants. He created short ones, tall ones, and different colored ones, but they were always pea plants that produced peas. (Pea plants are a domesticated species, too, but that is irrelevant to the point to be made here.) On the other hand, those Stone Age farmers who were fresh out of their caves and only just beginning to turn soil for the first time (as the “official” scenario goes), somehow managed to transform the wild grasses, grains, and cereals growing around them into their domesticated “cousins.” Is that possible? Only through a course in miracles.

Actually, it requires countless miracles within two large categories of miracles. The first was that the wild grasses and grains and cereals were useless to humans. The seeds and grains were maddeningly small, like pepper flakes or salt crystals, which put them beyond the grasping and handling capacity of human fingers. They were also hard, like tiny nutshells, making it impossible to convert them to anything edible. Lastly, their chemistry was suited to nourishing animals, not humans. So wild varieties were entirely too small, entirely too tough, and nutritionally inappropriate for humans. They needed to be greatly expanded in size, greatly softened in texture, and overhauled at the molecular level, which would be an imposing challenge for modern botanists, much less Neolithic farmers.

Despite the seeming impossibility of meeting those daunting objectives, modern botanists are confident the first sodbusters had all they needed to do it: time and patience. Over hundreds of generations of selective crossbreeding, they consciously directed the genetic transformation of the few dozen that would turn out to be most useful to humans. And how did they do it? By the astounding feat of doubling, tripling, and quadrupling the number of chromosomes in the wild varieties! In a few cases they did better than that. Domestic wheat and oats were elevated from an ancestor with 7 chromosomes to their current 42, expansion by a factor of six. Sugar cane expanded from a 10-chromosome ancestor to the 80-chromosome monster it is today, a factor of eight. The chromosomes of others, like bananas and apples, only multiplied by factors of two or three, while peanuts, potatoes, tobacco and cotton, among others, expanded by factors of four.

This is not as astounding as it sounds because many wild flowering plants and trees have multiple chromosome sets. But that brings up what Charles Darwin himself called the “abominable mystery” of flowering plants. The first ones appear in the fossil record between 150 and 130 million years ago, primed to multiply into over 200,000 known species. But no one can explain their presence because there is no connective link to any form of plants that preceded them. It is as if….dare I say it?….they were brought to Earth by something akin to You-Know-What. If so, then it could well be they were delivered with a built-in capacity to develop multiple chromosome sets, and somehow our Neolithic forebears cracked the codes for the ones most advantageous to humans.

However the codes were cracked, the great expansion of genetic material in each cell of the domestic varieties caused them to grow much larger than their wild ancestors. As they grew, their seeds and grains became large enough to be easily seen, picked up, and manipulated by human fingers. Simultaneously, the seeds and grains softened to a degree where they could be milled, cooked, and consumed. And at the same time, their cellular chemistry was altered enough to begin providing nourishment to humans who ate them. The only word that remotely equates with that achievement is: miracle.

Of course, “miracle” implies there was actually a chance that such complex manipulations of nature could be carried out by primitive yeomen in eight geographical areas over 5,000 years. This strains credulity because in each case in each area someone had to actually look at a wild progenitor and imagine what it could become, or should become, or would become. Then they had to somehow insure that their vision would be carried forward through countless generations that had to remain committed to planting, harvesting, culling, and crossbreeding wild plants that put no food on their tables during their lifetimes, but which might feed their descendants in some remotely distant future.

It is difficult to try to concoct a more unlikely—even absurd—scenario, yet to modern-day botanists it is a gospel they believe with a fervor that puts many “six day” Creationists to shame. Why? Because to confront its towering absurdity would force them to turn to You-Know-What for a more logical and plausible explanation."

From "THE LITERAL CREATION OF MANKIND AT THE HANDS OF YOU-KNOW-WHAT "
at; www.lloydpye.com...

Aliens did it is on par an explanation as God did it...

no Darwin said repeatedly he wishe he was wrong and could just god abck to faith and god did it thinking

he also outlined how his thoery could be wrong, so far no one has produced any evidence to confirm he was

cant get much more fair then that, if this happens its right if this hapens its wrong ..he set the challenge himself no ones been able to do it though even though a few have tried

not familiar with his work but if he managed to do it so easily and conclusivley why hasnt he beyond writting a none peer reviewed book?

only if you dont understand selective breeding and have a 1/2 decent knowledge how plants reproduce

any farmer that actually works the land not automates it all can do it given enough time

we make new roses and otehr flowers all the time with different petal counts or shapes or sizes and colours and that doesnt take a science degree its done by old men in green houses with a few generations and a bit of patience

only becasue then you can make a gap to fit in your chosen god of the gaps

except the people who do it with flowers everyday

its to improbabile for me to beleive ... more god of the gaps

how did man learn he can break flint and if done the right way produces very fine sharp blades ..must be the aliens

what that didnt say was he was also able to make large peas and small peas more peas and less peas in the same way corn and other domesticated plants are just bigger versions of what they already are

they produce more and larger versions of the same thing then domesticated

o_0 wrong no miracles required come across a patch of it and even small seeds quickly mount up to a reasonable pile with little effort unles he seems to think we had vastly different hand structures


grind on a rock add water mix and you have a handy lil cake, you can even cook it too if you like


except your wrong about everything but the nutritional value but they are easy to gather on your travels not that hard to refine (have rock will powder) and still provide more energy then it takes to gather them so a helpful snack

except selective breeding changes them on the molecular level as well as tthier shape size and constiancy so put your neolithic science labs away theres no gap here to squeeze into

i dont think they could have so they couldnt .... great reasoning

and mendel revolutionised the pea in just a few generations

go neolithic farmers thanks

hundreds?

yes becasue thats impossible without a lab isnt it, except it happens in nature all the time mutations can lead to increased chromsones we know of a few of them

you dont know so it cant be so theres that great resoning again

maybe if he had written the book back when Darwin was alive he might be on to somthing

www.geotimes.org...

a pollen spike is you guessed it the basis of a flower head and triassic is a lil bit older then 130 million years ago

or just good ole evolution and a lack of knowledge coupled with an overabundance of imagination

neolithic science is the bomb

they could be seen before maybe your a bit short sighted?

does he have really fat fingers?

thanks for the chance to go bone up on paleobotany a little more in proving it silly

reply to post by Heike

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Hi Heike,

I am a Creationist But I definitely don't go to a primate church on a Saturday or a Sunday!
And I definitely do Not, I repeat I do Not, belong to any religious group!

Yes I am Christian but I am Not a self proclaimed religious person of Roman Doctrine!

See my Avatar....

Take a good long look at it, as it is certainly Not Religious!

It is a Partitioning Map!

This Partition Map is Part of a Geometric Based Processing System that has been known from the beginning of Creation, as you may call it.

Yes, you can find a detailed description of this in The Book of Ezekiel and parts of it all through the bible but the bible is only a selected group of Hebrew and Greek writings that have been thrown together for political reasons by the Romans of that time!

I often refer to these writings, as many are familiar with a few of its scripts.


The bible is corrupted to the max. by the Scribes and Pharisees!

Today, the modern day Pharisees have been replaced by the primate church Through Rome who are now the leaders of Roman Doctrine which is in No way Christian...

The Teachings to day are certainly Not Christian but is, Roman Doctrine against Christians.

You've got it it is a Conspiracy against Life or the True Mind!

It is even written in that book, the book of Roman Doctrine, known as the bible,

Jesus said,

"Woe unto you Scribes and Pharisees and Hypocrites."

So why has many corrupted these writings?

Only for one reason.

That is to hide the truth that was in ancient knowledge!

If you accept the bible as it is written you do so in foolishness as the writings were written by Scribes!

And it plain says,

"Woe unto you Scribes and Pharisees and Hypocrites."

And in the Gospel of Thomas...

39.
Jesus said,
"The Pharisees and the scribes
have taken The Keys of Knowledge
and Hidden Them.

They themselves
have NOT entered,
nor have they allowed to enter
those who wish to.

You, however,
be as wise as serpents
and as innocent as doves."

So on this we can see the real meaning.

The writings have unfortunately been Bastardised by the Scribes and by the religious leaders for their on gain.

It is even written,

Woe unto them that make long pray for pretence and love to be seen standing in the synagogues by man (should be written "Flesh" and Not man), or woods to that effect I can find the exact phrase if you want me o.

But any way, No one can work out the truth by first reading the bible!

But if you have seen what the writings were written about then you can find witness to this amongst the writings.

Look the so called bible is reported to be the biggest seller in the world and many have made huge amounts of money out of this book.

Jesus turned over the money tables and went through the synagogue with a whip and cast them out saying they were a band of robbers and thieves!

Why because people buy and sell what is Not theirs!

All is owned by the All and Can't be owned by any flesh.

At sometime flesh looses it all in death! Now this is Not a belief but a Fact!

But in saying all this, the real Christians or those that followed after "The Man Child" or "Son of Man" mentioned in the Revelation as well as other writings (shown in my Avatar which is certainly Not of Human Form but of the Soul being Man and Not A'Dam)Fled from other primates going underground as to say to avoid being murdered by the Romans or any other primates!

They took many writings with them and they are guarded today Not in the form of Physical books but are stored up in Heaven in the form of books in the Libraries of The True Mind.

These are the Books mentioned in The Revelation of Jesus Christ which some are including myself are/am able to read through the Lamb of God!

The Lamb of God is Not Jesus as He is known as the Good Shepherd, and a Shepherd is Not a Sheep as many self proclaimed Christians or should I say more correctly worshippers of the Roman Doctrine would have you believe in Ignorance!







[edit on 22-11-2008 by The Matrix Traveller]

[edit on 22-11-2008 by The Matrix Traveller]

reply to post by noobfun

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Now you are an educated man I am lead to believe.

Surely you have an answer for me that will tell me where our universe has comes from in the future, I mean in one or two seconds from now?

I know you of all will be able to explain.

Id the Future is Not there for you all will become Nothing at all in the Next second.

If there is Now future even 1/000000000000000000 of one second ahead, there would be no movement possible as there would be No future showing any change.

Look others may believe I am Ignorant and Maybe I am but I just want someone to explain where your future existence comes from.

Surely this is a very very simple question that a man of your position can easily answer for me and every one on ATS....

I wish you al the best in Educating this Primate that enquires in Ignorance!

Hey you might even be able to educate me on the Evolution of Time Past and Future.

I would welcome your words of Wisdom......

If anyone can answer my question, I know it can be you...

I believe you are the Most Qualified to do this....

Perhaps you can tell me where to find this in the teachings of Evolutionist, I genuinely am Interested to be educated by you.

ooo the sly insult disguised as a compliment how very maveric -_-

look im gonna show im smarter then you, or show your not as smart as you think

makes no sense but i suspect your trying to talk about special relativity

i think im right its special relativity and your misunderstanding or having no knowledge of it

the future has always happened ahead of you light travels at the speed of light enters your eyes and travels to the brain where its decoded

what you actually see is always a past event now is the time the light reaches you and the future is always the time of lights travel from what reflects or emits it until it reaches you

until you can accelerate close to the speed of light you cant get closer to now, but this means you can never actually reach now, only get close. if it were possible to reach the speed of light you would freeze time there would be no future until you slowed and only now, but to travel at the speed of light you must have no mass or your mass becomes infinate

the future is always there wether me or anyone else is around to observe it means nothing

easy hahaha what i have said above is only a poor infact terrible aproximation of how relativity can be percieved without even touching on the theory its self and probabily still at least half wrong

it took Einstein half his life to understand it and im certianly no Einstein

reply to post by noobfun

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What a lot of desperate B.S.

My answer to you can be found on "Is There a Monkey in Your Family Tree?"

Quite a fitting thread for my answer Don't you think????

You have Not provided an answer but have made a complete fool of yourself...

I am a little disappointed in your remark as I thought you may have been Educated????

But where the Hell does your future come From????

As For me I definitely support Intelligent Creation through Processing!

Now this is Technology, and not the loose and unfounded beliefs of a Primate!

No I am definitely Not convinced by your wandering words and Insults!

My the Power of God remain Eternal and This world shall surely pass away But Christ's Words Shall Not pass away!

My trust In Christ and Not You!

reply to post by FSBlueApocalypse

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Very nice. I do not want to just leave a one line post but I fail to find anything I can add that would enhance a very enjoyable OP.

reply to post by noobfun

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Now is Future the result of Creation or is it Evolution???

If it is Not by Evolution, it can Only be by Creation that has given you your Future....

I challenge You to Prove me Wrong!

reply to post by noobfun

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Thank you for your opinion but you however have responded to only the EXCERPT I posted.
Read the essay, then impress me with your erudite demeanor. I notice if you don't have a valid response to a point you use humor, entertaining? Sure. Informative? Surely not.
Before you respond to this post please be advised I posted not to profess or further my beliefs, but only to share information. My personal beliefs are a private matter not for posting on an internet forum.

I am afraid logic and common sense will prove you wrong. Why would the future be the result of either evolution or your idea of creationism? Do you know the difference between something being created and creationism anyway? Something out of nothing does not need god. I create all the time, am I a god?