An open letter to Creationists

I saw somebody post that this forum is openly hostile to creationists and another that said that this forum was too strict which compelled me to make this thread. While I do not speak for GoodWolf, noobfun, or any other defender of Evolution on this board this is my position on the subject.

1. Why don't we accept "evidence" for Creationism? The main source is a 2000 year old book that has been translated from whatever local languages the stories were written in, to Greek, to Latin, then probably German, to English, with a natural corruption of information and content with each translation, and the current King James Bible. Scientific Evidence? I've yet to see any. Any process I've seen creationists to describe anything involves "And then God did something" which immediately discounts it. When a paper comes out giving an actual scientific way the Noahian Flood Story could've happened, I'll read it, see if it has merit, and if it does, I might even go to church for the first time in forever.

2. Why are we so hostile to creationists? I don't think that's our intent, but you know, there's a reason a lot of my posts in this forum are at least partially written in sarcasm. ATS' motto is "Deny Ignorance" and I can't think of anything far more ignorant than the inane backwards view of Science than I see in videos done by Creation Science Evangelism, Way of the Master, or Answers In Genesis. It gets old trying to beat back their claims which should have been refuted in your average high school Biology class.

In addition, speakings of those who tout the mantle for Creationists, it gets tiring to see those when you have to deal with the numerous strawman arguments and quote mines they contain.

3. I understand most of you probably were raised in Church and have strong convictions about this. Just as some people on this board have made it their mission to expose the Illuminati or proving aliens are visiting this planet, my personal mission is to try and pry your eyes open. I'm not trying to convince you there is no God, just simply that maybe, just maybe, it didn't happen like the two different accounts in Genesis say it happened.

I don't think anyone is overly hostile to Creationists either (codeword for christians most of the time). It has more to do with the fact that most Christians see themselves as being persecuted, and begin to act victimized under scrutiny or criticism. This playing-the-victim role is a self-fulfilling prophecy, as the more hurt you act, the more others will be critical of that response, and so on and so on.

I strongly believe that if a Creationist is not even willing to concede the possibility that evolution itself is part of "Creation," then you are just rubbing two wet sticks together anyways.

reply to post by FSBlueApocalypse


I'm a creationist.. but I certainly do believe in evolution.. I think its possible we evolved from primates.. Just if we did, I don't think we did on our own.

basically posts against creationism are seen as an attack because creationism tries to explain the start of the book we call human existance, what evolutionists prefer to forget is that evolution tries to explain the middle of the book.

im open minded enough to believe that over time evolution has played a role in the development of all life on earth, except for the hardcore evangelicals most christians i know have never disputed that evolution has possibly contributed.

however evolutionists seem to believe that evolution explains the begining of life of which it cant therefore its still only a theory much like creationism and ID.

now go back however many 1000's of years eventually there would have been the first man and women, were their names adam and eve, who knows, is what their names are important? not really one name serves just as well as another.

did those first 2 people evolve from a single cell organism ... that is possible how did the first organism come to exist ... science doesnt know and after experiment after experiment under more strict conditions than would have existed with in the primordial soup scientists still cant bestow that spark of life.

then we come to one other problem sentience was this a natural progression or evolutionary step? if so why arnt there more lifeforms on this world that have developed it? there are creatures on this planet that have been around for far longer than humans so if it was a natural evolutionary progression why have they not also developed this sentience?
science also cannot answer that, however these 2 questions "how did life start" and "how did we become sentient" are probably the most important questions that need answering before the world can catagorically state that "this is where we come from"

creationists get ridiculed for believing in a higher power, yet evolutionists theory isnt any more substantial than creation or ID, yet evolutionists stomp around with their misplaced feelings of superiority when they understand even less than anyone else.

people say this and that about the bible, there may or may not be mistranslations in there but people need to remember it was written by someone with a limited understanding of the world around them and they could only interperet this information using concepts that they understand, if what happened in the bible was happening during our times i suspect the bible would look alot different even though it was the exact same situations happening, it could possibly sound more like a sci-fi book than a religeous text.

and lastly people like to cherry pick the bible and scrutinize it and try to debunk it but the reality is they are so blinded by their need to try to feel superior that they dont see the most obvious message, the bible is about trying to show people how to better live their lives and about love, love yourself, love your neighbour (but dont get caught) love the world around you because it is good

-Peace-

[edit on 20-11-2008 by Demandred]

I have been a Christian all my life and I do believe in evolution and that the Bible does include it, but since the book was meant to trace the Holy line, evolution is only mentioned in the Bible. The Bible doesn't say evolution, but it does talk about the creations before God took His day of rest.

Since God is consistant, the first 6 days including the creation of men and women (plural when read from the original manuscripts) happened before He took His rest. The 6th day creations were created in this order; men, women, wild animals. After God rested He saw that there was no one to till the soil, so he molded Adam, then created domestic animals (farm animals), and then made Eve.

When Cain was banished he went to the Land of Nod and found a wife. His wife would of course have been from the 6th day creations and would account for all but the Holy line being evolved from what science has proven; apes.

God doesn't live by time, but man does and so He gave them a number that people of that time could understand, a time when the highest numbers were in the thousands and not trillions. The big bang would have occurred in one of God's days, not in a human's day. That first day could be millions of our years, but once Adam was molded a day would become 1,000 of our years. Before Adam a day most likely lasted for millions of years, long enough for evolution.

PS...God expects us to use common sense now and again...He was clear when He was asked how long one of His days that time for Him doesn't exist as He is for all eternity.



[edit on 20-11-2008 by ahimsa]

[edit on 20-11-2008 by ahimsa]

Couldn't figure out how to post after editing, but I left out a word here:
He was clear when He was asked how long one of His days were that time for Him doesn't exist as He is for all eternity.

reply to post by Demandred


Uhh no. We don't think Evolution explains the origins of life. Evolution picks up once life evolves. Abiogenesis is what deals with the creation of life. While we haven't gotten a full blown artifical cell yet, we're quite close. Scientists have created artificial DNA and artificial lipid layer already.

I think UFOs were created. I think an Orang Utang was created. I also believe in DNA and mutation. I think that we were created. Or we weren't, but a God could have a lot of fun tweaking our nipples.
I think that science is very invasive into faith. I think it tries to tell people that it's latest models are 'the truth' in a Papal Ceremony. I believe what I believe and science will not get in the way of that.
Going back to UFOs, I wish to allow others to believe what they believe, I believe in Darwin, and that is a good creationist tree.

reply to post by FSBlueApocalypse


if evolutionists dont believe that evolution explains the origins of life then why are they always trying to use it as a cudgel against creationists which does try to explain the origins of life?

in my experience especially here on ATS its always creationism vs evolution yet in my mind they seem to be apples and oranges...

Originally posted by FSBlueApocalypse
reply to post by Demandred

 

While we haven't gotten a full blown artifical cell yet, we're quite close. Scientists have created artificial DNA and artificial lipid layer already.

yea ive seen science articles to that effect there was one done in germany, but remember this back when life started there were no petri dishes, and in their experiments the smallest of contaminents can destroy the whole experiement so it makes me wonder if they do create life in a science lab would it be eveidence pointing more to ID than evolution?

Originally posted by Demandred
reply to post by FSBlueApocalypse

 

if evolutionists dont believe that evolution explains the origins of life then why are they always trying to use it as a cudgel against creationists which does try to explain the origins of life?

I wasn't ever aware that evolution was somehow a rebuttal to Creationism. It's the other way around. As has been said already, evolution is not the same as creation, part of the reason they have different names...

Surely you are not denying evolution as an absolute - for example, the evolution of technology is real, so is the creation of technology. The evolution of technology does not describe how it was created either. Again, that's why one is called creation, and the other is called evolution. I believe the final step in that process is extinction.

The same cycle (creation, evolution, extinction) can be extrapolated to inanimate objects: tables, tires, lights, chairs, etc., philosophy, art forms, etc. etc. So why is it so hard (or rather, why so much resistance) to extrapolate he concept to living things as well? Why does it have to involve religion at all? (It doesn't).

reply to post by Demandred


I don't see it as that. It's the fact creationists claim evolution doesn't happen and give "evidence", that's why it is brought up.

reply to post by scientist


take this post for instance "open letter to creationists" then it gos on about how evolution is right etc etc

then start quoting evidence of evolution which the majority of christians dont deny (there is a minority but they are the exception not the rule)

no offense but i find your post alittle odd...

reply to post by FSBlueApocalypse


the majority of christians infact do not deny evolution ....... ad infinitum

believe it or not we actually believe in dinosaurs too like OMG

we believe there is life outside our own galaxy

but mostly we believe God (higher being) started the ball rolling what happened after that is as you say evolution

reply to post by Demandred


well then, you are debating the post - a specific person's view. I am debating the entire argument of evolution vs creation (or rather, trying to show that they are not polar opposites, of which you must choose only 1).

I think the OP is speaking more to the tone / direction of the debate with Creationists when the topic of evolution comes up. It does tend to get hostile, because evolution is more about science and reason, and creationism is about faith and religion.

[edit on 20-11-2008 by scientist]

Originally posted by scientist
I don't think anyone is overly hostile to Creationists either (codeword for christians most of the time).

Well, I am a Christian only in the sense that I believe Jesus Christ was the hope of the world, Yet, i ama creationist of sorts. Although, I don't disregard the theory of evolution.

To me, evolution doesn't disprove creationism in the slightest.

With that being said, many evolutionists are not aware of a certain fact. Have you ever heard of Louis Agassiz? He was basically the "father" of the "ice age" theory. Do you know why he expounded such a theory?

Simple. He didn't want to accept the conclusive fact that there was indeed a great flood on earth. It would have validated a portion of the bible. Evolutionists and uniformitaians in general, do any and everything that they can to evade the chance they may be incorrect.

Even Charles Darwin stated that the theory of Evolution wasn't exact and may not be true at all. Yet, we parade it around as if it is a certainty. Where is the missing links between the flowering and non-flowering plants? Where is the missing links between apes and homo sapiens? Can you show me any bones that lead up to the "gradual" development of present day man? If you can, I suggest you let someone know quickly. You'll become an overnight sensation.

When you can, then, and only then, will I accept evolution with any degree of certainty. Until then, Evolutionary theory is just that, THEORY.

Thank ya, thank ya very much.





[edit on 20-11-2008 by SpeakerofTruth]

reply to post by scientist


no im not debating a post i used the post as an example of the mindset of evolutionists, you claim science and reason yet science hasnt answered the 2 big question i put forth in a previous post, you say that they are not polar opposites and with that i totally agree

so why is it then when a person posts about evolution theres always a shot across the bows of creationists?

there are many more points that could be discussed about evolution yet they cant help but drag creationism into the equation implying that they believe they are polar opposites...

im not a creationist, im not one for ID either however when i point out the flaws in the theory of evolution they are ignored or disputed with only the weakest of arguments.

even Darwin had doubts about his theory wich is to be expected because he was an intelligent man

Darwin stated doubts concerning evolution. Some were subject to his open expression. He saw the potential—from what he could mentally wrestle and grasp—for unresolveable problems. We should expect no less from an intellect that seeks to coalesce the big picture into a seamless vision.

Conversely, so much seemed to fit the theory and nature seemed to exhibit an order that evolution theory could piece together. After all, natural selection and examples from animal breeding along with the idea of descent from some one or few common ancestral forms was logical, but not entirely reasoned to a final conclusion. Still, there were wrinkles, gaps, and issues left unexplained. And that probably bugged Darwin so much so that he edited his Origin of Species from one edition to the next. Doubts and unresolved issues remained—and with good reason—because evolution was theory and not an established fact. Even today, proof is elusive and perhaps ultimately unobtainable. So, Darwin was right to express doubts and was right to keep on problem solving as best he could.

Darwins Doubts

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth


lol you beat me to the darwin doubts thing

a speicies that was part plant and part animal would be a weird thing to behold indeed

I FULLY believe in creationism.
I don't believe ATS is slanted against us, just the Universities and science fields.

Are you asking us to bring evidence for creation, here?
We had that last year, and before that.
I believe God created the world and all that is here. Sin deformed it, and some changes have occurred WITHIN species, but the evolutionists skew fossils and geology to 'fit' their dogma.

I also think some creation videos are boring and/or too simplistic, maybe we could get a grant from a University for research, No?

reply to post by FSBlueApocalypse


Star and flagged mate I'm thinking along the lines as you are as well.

I got your back in here when the flames start flying