Proposition 8 "The Christians Did It" Conspiracy, page 1

The recent Proposition 8 controversy in California has led to a proliferation of threads and references to Christianity being responsible for its success. This is an anti-Christian conspiracy perpetrated by opponents to Proposition 8, the media and secular interests. A proper look at the statistics shows that the “blame” (if one chooses to think of it in those terms) should not be so readily laid at the feet of committed Christians.

Here I will look in particular at Los Angeles County where the Proposition passed by a very slim majority of 0.4% (50.2% for, 49.8% against) (External Source) which perhaps makes this a good example. Also as we know Los Angeles is not the “Deep South” and the county is recognised as a very religiously diverse city, so the variance with National statistics is obvious and relevant.

The University of Southern California has county specific religious demographics (External Source) for many of California’s counties from 2000. Where Los Angeles County is concerned the religious demographic is as follows:

Religion (Total Number) [% of total population%]

• Roman Catholic (3,806,377) [40%]
  
• S. Baptist Conv. (111,634) [1.2%]
  
• Mormon (97,347) [1%]
  
• American Baptist (73,217) [0.8%]
  
• Independent Charismatic (71,500) [0.8%]
  
• Assembly of God (64,327) [0.7%]
  
• United Methodist (54,676) [0.6%]
  
• Intl Four Square Gospel (52,362) [0.6%]

The total of people identifying themselves as adherents of these religious bodies is 45.7%. The collator of these statistics notices the obvious, (External Source) that it seems to be a small number but notes that this may represent only two thirds of the actual, but hard to establish, number of religious adherents in the US. Applying this we can propose that the actual percentage of those adherents of religious bodies in Los Angeles County is 69% (A further 8% are Jewish). That’s more than 50.2% so is that it over then, there’s the proof?

Not when one notes that the definition of “adherents” does not necessarily mean being a “Church-goer” but rather those who consider themselves to be affiliated with that religious community. Actual Church goers is reported by Gallup for the period of 2004-2006 (External Source) for California the percentage of Church goers is way bellow the national average at 32%. Applying this to the 69% of those who consider themselves adherents of these Christian Churches the percentage of Church going members of these religious communities in Los Angeles County is 22%. There is no guarantee that all of those 22% of Church going voters in Los Angeles County voted in support of Proposition 8, in fact one can be certain that many didn’t.

That Proposition 8 was favoured by many Christian, and others, is true but to “blame” its success on committed Christians ignores the facts. The democratic process involves an individual making a choice and in this case more chose, for whatever reason, to vote in favour of Proposition 8.

Many who wish “Gay Marriage” legalised are angry at the moment but all that anger being poured upon Christians is inappropriate, it is scape-goating. Rome burned but don’t blame the Christians. It is important that: a State recognised as being most liberal, with such a low Church attendance and with such a diverse religious demographic voted in favour of Proposition 8.

It wasn’t committed Christians who imposed their beliefs on California, they may have wished this proposition success, but constitutionally and demographically they couldn’t and can’t – democracy did it.

[edit on 20/11/08 by Supercertari]

reply to post by jd140

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Well, I for one really don't support it. However, if that's what it takes to get them to shut up, let em' have it. I have come to the conclusion, many years ago, that while I may not agree with their lifestyle, I have to accept it because it's there and it's not going away. Rather than live my life in hatred, I'd rather just accept it and move on.

On the Yes side, Knights of Columbus, based in New Haven, Conn., is the measure's largest single contributor so far, having given $1.4 million. Other top contributors to the Yes on 8 campaign were Irvine banking heir Howard Ahmanson Jr.'s Fieldstead and Co. foundation ($1.1 million); John Templeton Jr., son of the late Bryn Mawr, Pa., investor John Templeton ($900,000); the Tupelo, Miss.-based American Family Association ($500,000), and Elsa Prince, ($450,000), mother of Blackwater founder Erik Prince.

Knights of Columbus spokesman Patrick Korten said the Catholic fraternal organization has backed amendments limiting marriage to a man and a woman in every state where they have appeared. But none of the group's contributions have come close to what the Knights are putting into the Proposition 8 race.

Who backed Prop 8?

Howard Fieldstead Ahmanson, Jr (born 1950) is an heir of the Home Savings bank fortune built by his father, Howard Fieldstead Ahmanson, Sr. Ahmanson Jr. is a multi-millionaire philanthropist and financier of the causes of many conservative Christian cultural, religious and political organizations.

And the second largest backer...

Templeton, Jr. is an evangelical Christian and the head of Let Freedom Ring, Inc., a group that raises funds for conservative causes

And the third largest backer...

The American Family Association exists to motivate and equip citizens to change the culture to reflect Biblical truth and traditional family values.

And the fourth...

To ignore the facts would be to ignore the fact that the people who bankrolled the Proposition 8 amendment are all Conservative Christians.

Oh, and they are not from California. So, it seems like the success of Proposition 8 relied heavily on Christians from out of state imposing their will on Californians. Perhaps they were not imposing it directly, but we all know how powerful a well-funded and well-organized campaign for something can be.

Perhaps that's why there is animosity towards Conservative Christians (notice I did not say Christians in general, just the ones vehemently opposed to homosexuals).

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth

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SpeakerofTruth:

I ask in a very humble was - do you have children? My grandson who is in first grade had to have a story about a boy having two daddy's. Now, I can not say with enough spirit that this is WRONG. It does not belong in the schools. I teach my grandchildren this is against God and against man. I teach them not to hate the person as the person is lost in their own way. But what they are doing is against the family and is just wrong.



Grandma

reply to post by Supercertari

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Well thought out and presented thread.

One problem.Which has already been pointed out.

The argument is not against the votes cast by Christians,but the money given by religious/Christian organizations in the backing of what is a state issue,not a religious issue.

For example;the Mormon Church contributed up to 70% of Prop 8 financing.
www.mormonsstoleourrights.com...

reply to post by Avenginggecko

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I doubt there would be any real surprise over who backed Proposition 8 by funding it. The point of this thread is really about who VOTED for it, not who helped to fund it.

This is one clear case where the liberal agenda totally backfired on itself. In their fervor to get Obama elected, liberals pandered to every minority and special interest group in the country. But the liberals in California apparently didn't stop to think about the fact that most minorities and special interest groups pretty much have their OWN agendas. Most of them are more worried about gaining more rights for THEMSELVES rather than working to bring about anything that resembles universal equality.

In fact, Proposition 8 won the fight largely due to minority voters. Here are some stats. African Americans voted yes on Proposition 8 by a 70 to 30 percent margin, Latinos voted yes by a 53 to 47 percent margin, the elderly folks by 61 to 39 percent.

www.cnn.com...
news.yahoo.com...;_ylt=At_haznHjkw6FJ4oqzWt.XxvzwcF

Of course the gay protesters won't be going into the Latino and African American communities to vent their frustrations. They would rather direct all of their rage at those who are less likely to fight back. Christian Churches.

I certainly agree with the OP. The success of Proposition 8 was due to a non-religious social stigma rather than a large number of people with Christian beliefs.

Why not use better data, rather than selecting a single county?

For Californian religious affiliation

pewforum.org...

For exit poll data:

Polls also showed that religious attendance and affiliation were strongly correlated with voting habits. Regular churchgoers sided in favor of the measure by a ratio of more than 4 to 1, and made up nearly one-quarter of the voters. By contrast, 54% of occasional and 83% of 'never' attenders voted No. Four out of every nine polled were occasional attendees, while over one fifth were in the 'never' category. Also, of those polled, a little less than two thirds of both Protestants and Catholics voted Yes, while nine tenths of no religion voted No. Over two fifths of those polled were Protestant, three out of every ten were Catholic, and about one in seven were 'none'. 'Other' and Jewish voter samples were too small to be statistically significant, but the data suggests they, too, leaned strongly No.[10]

Another exit poll showed that Republican party members sided in favor of the measure by a ratio of more than 4 to 1, and made up nearly a third of the voters. By contrast, more than half of Independents and nearly two thirds of Democrats voted No. Independents made up 28% of voters, while Democrats made up 42%.[10] Bush supporters' support for the measure was also important to the outcome. An exit poll showed that of the one-fifth of voters who approve of Bush, 86% voted in favor of the measure. Likewise, 85% of conservatives voted Yes, while 53% of moderates and 78% of liberals voted No. Conservatives made up three tenths of those polled, while moderates took up four in nine and liberals just over a quarter of the total.[10]

en.wikipedia.org...

Might give a better basis for discussion.

Originally posted by Grandma
reply to post by SpeakerofTruth

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SpeakerofTruth:

I ask in a very humble was - do you have children? My grandson who is in first grade had to have a story about a boy having two daddy's. Now, I can not say with enough spirit that this is WRONG. It does not belong in the schools. I teach my grandchildren this is against God and against man. I teach them not to hate the person as the person is lost in their own way. But what they are doing is against the family and is just wrong.



Grandma

Grandma,

I have seen many of your posts and I can tell you are a very nice person. But I hope for the sake of your grandchildren, none of them are gay.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

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Point taken.

reply to post by melatonin

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Thank you for that resource.

I used Los Angeles because of the closeness of the vote there, the diversity of the demographic and Los Angeles is the most populous County in the US, being more populous than 42 States let alone other counties.

Your wikipedia source confirms that regular Church goers made up "nearly one-quarter" of the voters which confirms the 22%, in Los Angeles, of my OP.

If the statistics you provide in your graphic had been repeated on polling day, and those with a Christian affiliation were responsible for the passing of Proposition 8, then the winning margin would have been 71% - 29% not the 52/48 split of the actual tally.

I was minded to use San Francisco County for my analysis where Proposition 8 was defeated 25%/75% where (using the standards of my OP) the percentage of the population identified as Christian church goers is 13.5%. If the 4/1 proportion of the Wiki results is applied to that figure then the number of Christian Church going voters who voted yes would be 11%. Less than half of the "Yes" voters in that county.

To use the statistic's you provided is also enlightening in light of the "conspiracy" proposition I make here. I will err on the side of the antithesis of my proposition in rounding up the numbers.

Regular Church goers comprised 25% of those polled, of these 80% voted yes - a "Yes" score of 20%
Ocassional Church goers comprised 44.5%, of these 54% voted "Yes" - a "Yes" score of 24%, a total of 44% which is still less than 71% or the 52% by which it one.
In fact if 71% is indeed the total of Christians in the state of California (which the 24% + 44.5% from above suggests is correct) it shows that 27% of the no voters were Christian and that Christians were divided 62%/38% on the proposition.

To blame the proposition's success on the Christians is therefore still in contradiction of the facts.

Concerning the financing of the campaigns, both sides had enormous "war chests" at Septembers end the "No" campaign had about $300,000 more than the yes campaign: thepolicyreport.net...

Major contributors to the "No" campaign were a N.Y. hedge fund manager, silicon valley millionaires and The California Teacher's Association. So questions can be asked of both sides about the source of their funding and extra-State funding.

I'm not denying that many Christian groups were vociferous in their support and sponsorship of the proposition but equally those who oppossed it ran a well funded campaign which even had the support of the Republican Governor and (then) Senator Obama.

I made this thread to question if Christians should be the primary focus of much of the vitriol that has been present since the success of Proposition 8 - there were evidently others who, by voting, made it successful. Perhaps its opponents might look at what they did wrong in trying to persuade people and shift the focus from a "the Christians did it!" response. Not that I personally would wish to give campaign advice to them, but that's what I would do - the current atmosphere of the response is not going to do their cause much good in the long run.

Originally posted by Supercertari
reply to post by melatonin

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Thank you for that resource.

No problem.

Regular Church goers comprised 25% of those polled, of these 80% voted yes - a "Yes" score of 20%
Ocassional Church goers comprised 44.5%, of these 54% voted "Yes" - a "Yes" score of 24%, a total of 44% which is still less than 71% or the 52% by which it one.
In fact if 71% is indeed the total of Christians in the state of California (which the 24% + 44.5% from above suggests is correct) it shows that 27% of the no voters were Christian and that Christians were divided 62%/38% on the proposition.

so, at least 85% of the yes vote was sourced from christians (given not all christians attend church)?

To blame the proposition's success on the Christians is therefore still in contradiction of the facts.

I'm not sure that's true, considering the vast majority of the vote and the money funding the 'yes' campaign was christian sourced. But if the premise is that non-christians also voted for prop 8, then, yeah. Not sure that's so surprising.

For example, parts of black culture has a homophobic undercurrent, and some rather deceptive campaigning targetted the balck community. Indeed, homophobia is very much institutionalised and even accepted to an extent in wider society.

However, what remains is that over 8 in 10 'yes' voters appeared to be christians.

I made this thread to question if Christians should be the primary focus of much of the vitriol that has been present since the success of Proposition 8 - there were evidently others who, by voting, made it successful. Perhaps its opponents might look at what they did wrong in trying to persuade people and shift the focus from a "the Christians did it!" response. Not that I personally would wish to give campaign advice to them, but that's what I would do - the current atmosphere of the response is not going to do their cause much good in the long run.

Of course. It goes beyond christianity into the very nature of our society.

Lets say, hypothetically of course, that 15% of society (extending the 15% non-christian, but ignoring all other possible explanations - bit silly, but lets use it for illustration) are by their very nature homophobic, and their homophobia fed their vote on the day - this is quite likely a well-established rather inflexible attitude. In the christian group, the same 15% are comparable. So we have a large number voting for other more external reasons.

Which could be more readily altered? The attitudes of the 15% intrinsic homophobes, or those voting for other less internally motivated attitudes?

As I noted, totally hypothetical, but is a useful illustration. I'd be targetting those who have the greater ability to be reasoned with (i.e., not intrinsically motivated to 'discriminate'). And that would involve the more moderate christians and religious, as they are the largest group. Just a small proportion would suffice.

[edit on 23-11-2008 by melatonin]

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