US Supreme Court to Conference on Obama's Presidential Eligibility, page 4

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

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But, they were able to pass "their" citizenship to their children, hence "natural born" citizenship....a citizen from birth, and not a "naturalized" citizen.

And, no, this isn't about McCain, but the questions with him are different from the questions about Obama. Both of McCain's parents were US citizens; Obama's were not. We all know where McCain was born; there are questions about Obama's birth place. There are questions about both, but Obama is the one that has to answer them....or the one that people want answers from.

If SCOTUS rules to see the vault copy BC, this will be settled once and for all and we can all get on with life, one way or another.



[edit on 11/20/2008 by skeptic1]

reply to post by AmericanDaughter

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We can only hope. I don't think a lot of people realized until this election year that Presidential candidates were not vetted until AFTER the election.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

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I thought I said that, only I used less words and didn't add any links. I said that Hawaii has verified they hold it. But verifying you hold something and verifying what is actually on it are two separate things.

Leo Donofrio's case, the one being discussed here, is not focused solely on Obama. There were 3 questionable candidates on New Jersey's Ballot. Here's an excerpt from the emergency stay application (in NJ)

Appellant, Leo C. Donofrio, a New Jersey citizen who intends to vote in
the pending general election of 2008, requests this most Honorable Court
to issue an Emergency Stay prohibiting the use, in the State of New Jersey,
of defective ballots containing at least three ineligible candidates for the
office of President of the United States, and for such Honorable Court to
order Defendant-Respondent, Nina Mitchell Wells, Secretary of State of
the State of New Jersey, to remove from New Jersey ballots the names of
Republican candidate John McCain, Democratic candidate Barack Obama,
and Socialist Worker's Party candidate Roger Calero, as Appellant
respectfully submits they are not "natural born citizens" as enumerated
in Article 2, Section 1, of the Constitution of the United States.

Leo Donofrio's website

The SCOTUS is going to conference on this case, that still does not mean they will hear the case, only discuss whether they will hear the case. It takes 4 Justices to say hear the case for it to move forward.

Even if it moves forward, they can only rule on whether constitutional law was violated by lower court rulings. And even if they do make a ruling, it only applies to the State of New Jersey, specifically the Secretary of State, for not doing what is require of her prior to Nov. 4th.

IF (BIG HUGE IF) SCOTUS makes a ruling in favor of Leo Donofrio, then we MAY see more such suits come forward, because, in the end it is the responsibility of each state's designated authority to validate the eligibility of the candidates that are placed on the ballot.

I do not see any possibility that SCOTUS will make a nationally sweeping ruling, but they MAY make a ruling that sets precedence for the rest of the states. All assuming that they rule for Donofrio, that is.

Should that be the outcome, this issue will explode into more of a mess than just multiple discussions on a conspiracy forum (or 100).

No matter what happens, there is going to be a significant portion of the population that will not be happy, especially if and when this hits the MSM

reply to post by Realtruth

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The problem is that there is no government agency that vets Presidential candidates prior to the election. It is left up to the parties to ensure their candidates' qualifications. So, outside of the parties, there is no "screening process" other than the media (it seems) and they were pretty fond of Obama during the campaign.

And, you are right, we have to wait and see. Truth be told, Obama was probably born in Hawaii and this was all a wasted effort. But, there are 17 lawsuits about this out there and people have questions they want answered.


[edit on 11/20/2008 by skeptic1]

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

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If I remember correctly, a person is a natural born citizen if they are born on US Sovereign soil i.e. US Embassy, US Military Base. John McCain was born in a military hospital in Panama which would qualify as US Sovereign soil, making him a natural born citizen.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by skeptic1
But, they were able to pass "their" citizenship to their children, hence "natural born" citizenship....a citizen from birth, and not a "naturalized" citizen.

It makes sense, but I'm not sure that's the law. Is it? Because I thought the children would be naturalized.

The Naturalization Act of 1790 established that:

And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond sea, or out of the limits of the United Staes, shall be considered as natural born citizens

However, the Naturalization Act of 1795 repealed the one from 1790 and changed the language to:

And be it further enacted, that the children of persons duly naturalized, dwelling within the United States, and being under the age of twenty-one years at the time of such naturalization, and the children of citizens of the United States born out of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States, shall be considered as citizens of the United States.

From my understanding citizenship is not the same as "natural born" citizen.

Also in the case of McCain, he's only an American citizen by birth (since his parents were American nationals at the time), and is not from having been born in a US Military Installation, nor would it make him a "natural born" citizen, since from the document Acquisition of US Citizenship By Birth In The United States, on page 6:

Despite widespread popular belief, U.S. military installations abroad and U.S. diplomatic or consular facilities are not part of the United States within the meaning of the 14th Amendment. A child born on the premises of such a facility is not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and does not acquire U.S. citizenship by reason of birth.

I'm not a legal expert, but from reading these documents "natural born" citizen means being born in the United States. And what does this mean exactly?

Again from that same document on page 4:

o. “United States” means “the continental United States, Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico,
Guam, and the Virgin Islands of the United States” (Section 101(a)(38) INA).

And from page 5:

Sec. 101(a)(38) INA provides that, for the purposes of the INA,
The term “United States”,... when used in the geographical sense,
means the continental United States, Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico,
Guam, and the Virgin Islands of the United States.

If Obama wasn't born in Hawaii he is not a "natural born" citizen. But so isn't McCain.

However, Section 8 of Article I of the United States Constitution confers on Congress the power "to establish a uniform Rule of Naturalization..." This power has been construed to include defining the characteristics of a "natural born citizen", as well as the conditions of "naturalization". (source)

So my guess is that if the Courts would find Obama (or McCain) ineligible to be President, Congress could just change the meaning of "natural born" citizen?

Again, I'm not an expert, but having read through all these documents and references, neither Obama nor McCain seem to qualify for being "natural born" citizens (assuming Obama wasn't born in Hawaii as apparently this person is claiming).


edit: fixed minor typos, added source(s) and clarification about Obama's status as a "natural born" citizen.

[edit on 20-11-2008 by danx]

reply to post by Realtruth

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You tell me that a candidate for president of these United States can get through the entire process and be elected, but not be a citizen.

You tell me how people could have voted for Bush twice.

You tell me how Congress was able to give Bush basically everything he asked for.

You tell me how Congress can pass anything they want and all the constituents do is complain.

You tell me how so many illegal immigrants can come into this country and the government don't know where they are at.

You tell me how Wall Street was able to do everything they have done and the government not know about it.

It is more than possible. That doesn't mean I am saying it is. Stranger things have happened.

reply to post by danx

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Excellent post! There was a particular McCain thread a while ago in which I participated and we went over all of that. (I got COMPLETELY chewed out for posting what you have posted here) But you have put it in a very concise manner. And I agree 100%. If Obama isn't a "natural-born" citizen, then McCain isn't either.

McCain Thread

It will be interesting to see what happens.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

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Thank you for your words BH, and I'm sorry if I'm posting duplicate information, I've never really paid much attention to the other threads regarding this issue.

But having read this one and the OP link, I had to check out some stuff for myself and was quite shocked to find out this isn't as clear-cut as I thought it was initially.

I was also (wrongly) thought that having been born in a US Military base would qualify McCain has a natural born citizen, and apparently that is not the case.

Originally posted by Maxmars
reply to post by HunkaHunka

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So far, yours is the only hint of such activity. Why post on a thread you feel is unnecessary?

On many other threads dealing with this issue you see many people throwing around the political spin. No one has done that here. But your comments just may 'invite' such activity. The issue in the OP is clear and direct. The Supreme Court WILL be involved in this matter. What's there to complain about?

Yeah as I have found out in other threads where such is the case, that is what hunka does while giving advice to others.

Ironic but true

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by danx

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Excellent post! There was a particular McCain thread a while ago in which I participated and we went over all of that. (I got COMPLETELY chewed out for posting what you have posted here) But you have put it in a very concise manner. And I agree 100%. If Obama isn't a "natural-born" citizen, then McCain isn't either.

McCain Thread

It will be interesting to see what happens.

I wouldn't be too sure about that, a navy base has US sovereign status which means he is a US Natural Born Citizen if born in a Navy Hospital anywhere in the world even an aircraft carrier where I was stationed hosted emergency births where they were citizens. Any US military installation and any warship is an extension to the geographical continental United States of America. This is why anyone attacks one of our ships, attacks our country and as such is an act of war





[edit on 20-11-2008 by MAINTAL]

Originally posted by danx
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

---

Thank you for your words BH, and I'm sorry if I'm posting duplicate information, I've never really paid much attention to the other threads regarding this issue.

But having read this one and the OP link, I had to check out some stuff for myself and was quite shocked to find out this isn't as clear-cut as I thought it was initially.

I was also (wrongly) thought that having been born in a US Military base would qualify McCain has a natural born citizen, and apparently that is not the case.

May I ask of this information also please as I too seem to be misguided on that issue

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