Obama set to expand War on Terror to include your guns

So Obama picked Eric Holder for AG.

Just one month after September 11 Holder wrote in an op-ed that it was time to kill off gun shows and make it increasingly more difficult to legally purchase a firearm. No doubt because the planes were hijacked with box cutters.

One measure that is an essential part of any plan is the need to tighten our nation's gun laws, which allow the easy and legal sale of firearms to terrorists and criminals. While we are appropriately discussing requiring criminal background checks on airline pilots, baggage handlers and airport security personnel, federal law does not require background checks on all firearms sales. In the interest of national security, this should be changed immediately.

So how do a bunch of lunatics using razors to fly planes into buildings bring about a need for gun control? Well, it doesnt. Unless you've always been a gun-grabbing totalitarian.

Eric Holder is another nail in the coffin of liberty.

From the OPed. "This legal loophole must be closed immediately. We can no longer allow the purchase of firearms through the Internet or a newspaper ad, at a gun show or a flea market, or in any other type of sale from an unlicensed seller, WITHOUT A BACKGROUND CHECK or other record of purchase."

Bold text is mine.

It doesn't say "get rid of gun shows".

Also, a lot of things were said immediately following 9/11 when we almost all in the heat of the moment, as Americans, tried to find a way to fight back against what had been done. Box cutters may have been used, but no one with half a brain is going to think that guns wouldn't be more effective. I myself was yelling "Nuke the bastards!" from the top of the roof in reference to whomever did it. Is your problem with background checks? Because unless I missed something in the OPed, he was advocating them for gunshows and mail order, etc.

reply to post by Zenagain


Forcing background checks would cripple gun shows and all private sales. It would take a market and essentially make it a government market like the DMV. We would all be forced to pay-up for goods under limitless regulation having now been made a government commodity.

And, yes, I oppose background checks. They are a clear infringement.

What amazes me is that people WANT the government to tell them what they can and cannot do. I for one do not need the idiots in the government to tell me anything. I don't need them to regulate me in anyway. Personally I would rather take my family and live in solitude away from the government greed and corruption.

People constantly complain about how the government is corrupt yet they scream for more government control? This makes no sense to me whatsoever.

The ban on guns in D.C. is a great example. They did it to "reduce crimes" yet when the law biding citizens were forced to give up their fire arms, crime increased exponentially. So you disarm the public, the criminals have no fear and commit more crime. If guns are legal then criminals think twice before going in to steal your plasma TV and rape your wife. Of course we should just sit there while they do this waiting for the police officers to come protect you.....God forbid you actually raise a hand against a criminal in your house, because you will be sent to prison and not them.

The problem with guns does not lie with the law biding citizens having them. It is the criminals that get the guns, and you can get out of your fairy land because they do not buy them legally. Taking away our right to have a measure of defense is unlawful and stupid.

I'll grant you that his idea that this would protect us from "terrorists" is kind of nutty. I myself would focus more on flight schools, airline passengers, shipping containers in ports and licensing for truckers carrying hazardous waste and or sensitive material. Mainly shipping containers as only like 1-300 are actually checked and god only knows what could be brought into say, Boston Harbor with one. Terrorist nuke? Bomb to set off a LNG tanker? Bio weapons? That's scary. Give it a year or so and if the AG, or Obama takes away your right to bear arms, I'll eat crow. Until then?......

I really, really don't follow this.

Why the hell does the vast great majority (it seems) of the U.S. population think that owning a weapon is some sort of human right?

Is it just the product of a lacuna coil? Just because the liberal gun-laws screwed everything up from the beginning, people need to arm themselves to counter all the gun-waving criminals who shouldn't have had a gun in the first place?

I just can't get it into my tiny brain why everybody keeps whining about gun restriction. Are the americans so damn afraid all the time? Do you feel so insecure?

To me, guns mean nothing but trouble. I mean, look at all the statistics, look at the statistics of countries outside yours with strict laws.
What the hell do you want? More gun related killing or less gun related killings?

Owning a gun can be fun and all, and hunting is some sort of hobby I guess (though I have a sereious hard time understanding that as well) but come on! Get rid of that stuff. It is nothing but bad news.

Everytime I come across this subject, I can't help but looking upon the pro-gun people as little children.
Your arguments lead to nowhere. It just sounds so god damn insane to me.

My God this is so sad!

Its just a big cultural difference,americans on the whole like their guns,we have not had them so are content and see no need,Americans have always had that right,and yes alot of them do hunt,which i wish more folks in europe did..I agree i dont see the need to have a gun,ive never held or even seen one in real life,but i also acknowledge there is a fundamental clash between americans and europeans on this due to a different perepective.

reply to post by Raud


I really, really don't know how to respond to this.
Why the hell does the vast great majority (it seems) of the U.K. population think that owning a weapon is some sort of crime?

Is it just the product of a lacuna coil? Just because some psychopath screwed everything up not too long ago, people need to disarm every non-criminal to counter all the gun-waving criminals who shouldn't have had a gun in the first place?

I just can't get it into my tiny brain why everybody keeps whining about gun availability. Are the brits so damn afraid all the time? Do you feel so insecure?

To me, guns mean everything. I mean, look at all the statistics, look at the statistics of countries outside ours with strict laws.
news.bbc.co.uk...
www.law.harvard.edu...
news.bbc.co.uk...

What the hell do you want? More gun related killing or less gun related killings?

Owning a gun is great fun and all, and hunting is a wonderful sport (how you can eat meat but insulate yourself from the reality is beyond me) but come on! Get out there and try an IDOA match or 3-gun event. It is fantastic fun.

Everytime I come across this subject, I can't help but looking upon the anti-gun people as little children.
Your arguments lead to nowhere. It just sounds so god damn insane to me.

My God this is so sad!

I really, really don't know how to respond to this.

everytime a socialists speaks an angel loses its sanity. When will the kids of america who have been led into this falacy called socialism and communism wake up to the scam behind it all. its just systems for willing slaves. dont include others in your plan to ruin your own lives.

Reply to thisguyrighthere

Right...little children was it...

First, I am not a Brit, I'm a Swede. But that is really not important at all.

Second, I don't eat meat.

Third, I was in the army and so was my father (commando) and his father and most probably the fathers before him. Even my little sister is now applying for the Special Forces (kind of strange I know). I fired so many rounds of both 5,56 mm and 7,62 mm that I lost count way before boot camp was over. After that, I've shot quite a load of 9mm as well. And yes, I loved it, but guns are for the military and the police. And maybe hunters and some security personel. Not for private owning "just for the hell of it". Just the idea of having a gun in your house...crazy man! It's not war yet. It is just a little demon made of metal waiting to casue mayhem.
Be a man and learn how to defend yourself with other means if you feel so threatened all the time. Or even better, get a life.

And fourth, your input had extremely little inpact on me, I would almost say no inpact at all. It was like talking to a wall, man.

Anyone else able to help me understand this illogical "logic"?

Reply to Solomons
Since you seem to have a mental maturity above the one of a 12-year old maybe you can draw the picture for me.

I know that history has served us very differently, but we also had our share of civil wars and such. Hell, we were in the midst of at least two world wars with nazis and commies and all but we still look upon weapons as tools of death and destruction and see no harm what so ever with putting stricter than strict laws upon them.

And don't give me that "it's not guns that kill people..." kind of insanity...

I was expecting to see the Obamanauts come in here and praise Obama and his cabinet for their gun grabbing position but it seems the Euro folk got here faster.

reply to post by Raud


Who said anything about defending myself or war? I shoot because it's great fun. I shoot because I enjoy it. I like the challenge of taking that bullet and putting it where I want it under various conditions. I collect guns for the same reason I collect bicycles. I like them. I enjoy building them, maintaining them, modifying them and even cleaning them and I love the satisfaction that comes with taking something that is thoroughly mine from the ground up and using it successfully to perform the duty for which it was designed.

It's nice to know you're a thick wall that cannot be "inpacted." I have had too much interaction with 'walls' and know you don't want anyone to convince you that any opinion other than your own could possibly have merit or value. I wish you much success in that.

reply to post by Raud


You just haven't done the thorough research required to make an informed decision.

You are equating guns with death simply out of fear and media perversion.

Don't worry, most people in Europe suffer from this.

Read this debate in full if you want a total grasp on the issue:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by MetatronCubensis
I was expecting to see the Obamanauts come in here and praise Obama and his cabinet for their gun grabbing position but it seems the Euro folk got here faster.

The long time socialists were first, the up and coming socialists will be here after their morning prayers to their Messiah.

reply to post by Raud

Originally posted by Raud
Why the hell does the vast great majority (it seems) of the U.S. population think that owning a weapon is some sort of human right?

I'd say, it's just a right set forth in the U.S. Constitution, namely the Second Amendment.

Until ALL the criminal elements in society (including those in control of the Government) completely and verifiably disarm, I will be a gun-owner.












[edit on 20-11-2008 by FewWorldOrder]

[edit on 20-11-2008 by FewWorldOrder]

Reply to thatguyrighthere

Now we are getting somewhere!

So, guns are your hobby. No problem with that.
But then you must have great insight and respect for what a weapon really is. And most of all, what it means when the wrong people get across one.
You must also understand that letting them loose on an uncontrolled market.
I mean, you have to see that there are way to many guns circulating your country at the present.

I love guns also. I love shooting and blowing things up, I was actually raised to love that. All my childhood, the distand sounds of the shooting range was always there, and I mean always.

Still, what I am fishing for is why the hell you see any problems with tightening the belt a little. What harm could it possibly do?

I just want to know the fundation of this gun-owning-fundamentalism currently influencing the US. I just want to know what's the deal (knowing that there are literally thousands of different reasons).

reply to post by 44soulslayer


Will check that thread out first.

I am achin' to know!

Thanks for the tip.

reply to post by FewWorldOrder


Hmm, I don't know about the second amendment. Isn't that one pretty obsolete by now? I mean, times were a little different back then, wasn't it?

But maybe, just maybe if I was under the influence of such a govenment such as yours, especially the one you hade the last 8 years, I would understand that view.

Still, this is the lacuna coil I am talking about; people arm themselves by mentioning this amendment, the government becomes uneasy and starts being afraid of the population, the population sees this and so goes the arms race-merry-go-round...down, down, down...while people die for no reason.

Originally posted by Raud
Reply to thatguyrighthere


Still, what I am fishing for is why the hell you see any problems with tightening the belt a little. What harm could it possibly do?

I counter with what good could it possibly do?

No gang-banger or criminal is walking into a gun shop or gun show or even seeking out legitimate FTF transactions. They exist in a black market that deals in stolen arms or illegally imported arms. How does making it more difficult or expensive for me to get a match grade barrel or new receiver hinder in any way black market traffic?

Under Clintons pointless AWB not one aspect of the criminal gun trade was affected but millions of law-abiding gun owners were made criminals overnight. Some were forced to turn over their property to government authorities. Some of that property was no doubt 'lost' by crooked cops/feds and/or stolen outright and ended up on the criminal market.

reply to post by Raud


I own a gun or three. I like having the right to decide how to use it.

Now I could be like you, and only use a weapon while in the military. But that means those somewhere further up the chain of command do all the deciding on when and where to use that puppy.

Americans tend to not feel so inferior towards our leaders. I have just as much right to decide when and where to use that gun as the President does. True, he and his buddies can enact any law they want, even gun laws. It's like a speed limit, it's up to me to obey it.

I'm sorry they may have removed your backbone in that Swedish hospital where you were born. It would then be painful going through life tugging your forelock and bowing to your masters. You go ahead and be amazed at America's love of guns; we're just as amazed at your servile attitude.



[edit on 20-11-2008 by TheFreeBird]