Freedom on Eath is a fallacy

OK I had to start a thread and thrash out our concept of freedom.

It infuriates me when people say well you are free to do what you want.....blah, blah blah. You are a free person etc etc.

NO YOU ARE NOT FREE. In fact no-one is free in the true sense of the word. Mostly the perception of freedom is simply a staggered delusion of ones circumstances versus what is available or on offer. The reason I use the word delusion is because people will literally lie to themselves and convince their psyche that they are free. IOW its a comfort/belief system thing. Freedom also has a correlation with knowledge, by this I mean that you can’t fully realise a freedom unless you know about it, so for example people may well have continued to walk down snow capped mountains for some time until word got to them that ski's were invented, thus giving them greater freedom once they knew about this. The same goes for lots of things. So you can't be free unless you have all the tools and facts to hand and realistically no-one does.

On earth there will always be someone who will object to you exercising true freedom whether it is the law, morality or simply your own state of mind and its conditioning.

For those of you that think you are free think about this, you pay your taxes, you queue in line, you pay for your goods or services, you walk and drive in designated areas only observing signs here and there, you do not trespass, you don't commit any crimes for fear of persecution, you are polite to people you don't like, you contain your anger and suppress your delight. I could go on.......

Those who think they are free are in denial or are simpletons de facto.

One of my goals is the pursuit of freedom, not necessarily in this domain. It should be yours also!

Listen to this and tell me if you are free.

listen, important info

No one is free to do what they want, if the wrong person does not like you, you can end up in what they talk about here, in this mp3.

Freedom would be something like Gaugin in Tahiti or Kerouac on the road, but they had little or no money. Money is to some people a door to freedom hence the term "independently wealthy", but for others, especially artists, money is sort of a tie that binds hence the term "wage slave".

[edit on 20-11-2008 by switching yard]

All of the freedom mentioned above is subjective and relative.
Every person has true freedom.
...Your choice to Love or not to Love. The simpliest of concepts but if you don't understand the most basic element of freedom then you get all of these subjective definitions and questions, "what is freedom?" Some say money, some say doing anything you want...etc...

...if you are stuck on the image of love being a hug and not love as a punch in the face...well you aren't understanding it yet.

One small small example, using one from an above post. Standing in line.
If you were "free" you wouldn't have to stand in line, is that right? You should be able to walk right up to the front if you were free. Why don't you? Because of some penality or potential ass kicking from the rest of the people? If that is your reason for not going to the front than you are NOT free, or at least not in the prison of your mind. If you don't do it because you wouldn't want someone else to do that to you, and you are wise enough to know that it was a choice to "love" rather than not to "love" then you might also realize that every decision you make answers that question, every single time you decide anything.

We are all free. Any other definition of freedom is anecdotal and subjective and of little value to you as an individual. If everyone was conscious of this and chose to love rather than not to love, then even your definition of freedom, or your idea of freedom would be realized throughout the entire world. But of course as long as people think selfishly about "their" freedom and "their" right to be free...well here we are.
Think about that the next time you (a collective you) decide to exercise your freedom to drink a 12 pack and go hit the highways. Think about the freedom you decided to take away from the rest of us, whether it is killing someone or being responsible for the statutes that put a limit on what the rest of us can drink and drive without punishment because of you.

Your idea of freedom doesn't exist because the results of selfish people exercising their freedoms at the cost of ours has made it this way.

reply to post by Res Ipsa


One's own disposition to love can greatly be influenced by hereditary or environmental factors. If an autistic child isn't able to internalize the ideas of love, then does that make his moral decisions any less meaningful than yours? A child brutally beaten and raped will be much more inclined to not love than a kid from a more fortunate background. It's not that he's saying to himself, "I'm not going to love anybody because I choose to." He's not loving people because he's a product of his environment. So in this sense, he's still not free from the world around him.

I think it's an oxymoron to talk about true freedom in the physical world. Our bodies are dependent upon food, air, and water, which is inescapable. Perhaps in death we may achieve true freedom, but never in the physical world. And anyone that truly believes they are free are buying into a false illusion, no matter how good their intentions may be.

Freedom is based on our ability to choose. Just because I don't have an INFINITE amount of choices does not make me less free because I can still make any choice that I want that is within my realm of possibility. For example. I have $10 in my pocket. To be able to use that money to buy ownership of the earth is rediculous and simply not possible. However, how many other options do I have to spend it?

Even if I only have 2 choices I am still free to choose which I prefer. Freedom is only lost when one gives that power of choice to another being. Freedom does not imply that I can make any choice that I want with no negative consequence either. Cause and effect still apply because my choice has an effect in the world. I have the freedom to choose to steal from someone else, but that does not mean I will not go to jail.

Are you implying that I am not free because I cannot do anything that my creative mind dreams up? If I said I want to turn into a fire breathing dragon and fly through the air, does that imply that I am not free because I cannot physically do that?

I say that I am free because I can make any choice I wish that is within the realm of possibility.

Freedom exists if you try hard enough.

As long as you cling to materialistic needs and being 'one of the guys' freedom is not something that you will get. But if you cannot see the options (few they may be) for total freedom of control you may be simpler than you would like to think in this aspect.

If i set up shop in some old forest building my own tree-hut i am free of any oversight but not able to get on the interwebs for my daily dose of digital fun, a choice you could make. But even in this day freedom is not impossible, just look harder. In a perfect world you would be able to have total personal freedom AND the possibility of all benefits of technology. Now it is not the case and you have to choose. Leave the addictive bonds of society in place or choose to be free. (and there are enough options to find in between)

I also wanted to add, that if your idea of "true freedom" is the ability to have an infinite amount of options at your disposal, then it simply cannot exist at all except with God. Even in the spiritual realm there are laws to be followed.

Originally posted by killuminati2012
reply to post by Res Ipsa

 

He's not loving people because he's a product of his environment. So in this sense, he's still not free from the world around him.

no one can choose "not to choose" we must act. Our freedom to act as we can unto our own will, is not a fallacy. You must define the will before talk about freedoms. Beliefs, desires and intent predict how we will act. Your will can be known by anyone but only confirmed by you (or God).

To say we are all a product of our environment is plausible, but unfortunately not entirely correct. I say plausible, because you can probably give me tons of examples of cause and effect to our behaviors, but many cognitive sciences are finding it hard to determine if our self-conscience can or can't be a first cause.

[edit on 20-11-2008 by juveous]

If you put a rat in a maze with cheese at the end as the motivator, the rat is free to choose to go left or right, free to move around inside the maze on its quest for the cheese. Its making "choices" it can go whatever direction it wants, but is slave to the cheese and that who put it in the maze first off, if the rat really had a choice or freedom it would skip being put in the maze and go right to the cheese.

We too can make choices inside a already determined set of circumstances but we cannot choose to not be put in the maze. Although i suppose we can choose to end our lives and I think that is the only real freedom we have. We cannot disregard how much we are manipulated in the "choices" we make. I don't think we choose as much as people would believe rather living up to material desires, fashion, wanting look like those who we admire, so we buy and live in accordance to those trends, ideals, materials that we surround ourselves with looking to be comfortable with ourselves and such. Does a woman really want to push liquid filled sacks under her skin to make her breast bigger? or does she do this to live up to outside factors that persuade her to to do this in order to get something for it or look a certain way or receive compliments? Interesting, I don't know if that makes us free, or free to choose within a given set of guidelines, and then is that really a choice? Excellent thread!!!!

we continue to move forward, do we want this? yes and so on,at the end of x years this is what we have become.

Originally posted by killuminati2012
reply to post by Res Ipsa

 

I think it's an oxymoron to talk about true freedom in the physical world. Our bodies are dependent upon food, air, and water, which is inescapable. Perhaps in death we may achieve true freedom, but never in the physical world. And anyone that truly believes they are free are buying into a false illusion, no matter how good their intentions may be.

Bingo, you have hit the nail on the head

Originally posted by Mav3rick
Freedom is based on our ability to choose. Just because I don't have an INFINITE amount of choices does not make me less free because I can still make any choice that I want that is within my realm of possibility. For example. I have $10 in my pocket. To be able to use that money to buy ownership of the earth is rediculous and simply not possible. However, how many other options do I have to spend it?

Even if I only have 2 choices I am still free to choose which I prefer. Freedom is only lost when one gives that power of choice to another being. Freedom does not imply that I can make any choice that I want with no negative consequence either. Cause and effect still apply because my choice has an effect in the world. I have the freedom to choose to steal from someone else, but that does not mean I will not go to jail.

Are you implying that I am not free because I cannot do anything that my creative mind dreams up? If I said I want to turn into a fire breathing dragon and fly through the air, does that imply that I am not free because I cannot physically do that?

I say that I am free because I can make any choice I wish that is within the realm of possibility.

Yes but what if that realm of possibility which you pool your choices from is more and more restricted as society introduces more and more procedures, protocols and laws!? It looks to me as though you are making blinkered choices.

No I am not implying that you're not free because you can't breath fire, that is another type of freedom altogether which is true freedom of expression, which cannot be done in a physical body but might be possible in the spiritual realms.

Originally posted by Fletcher33
If you put a rat in a maze with cheese at the end as the motivator, the rat is free to choose to go left or right, free to move around inside the maze on its quest for the cheese. Its making "choices" it can go whatever direction it wants, but is slave to the cheese and that who put it in the maze first off, if the rat really had a choice or freedom it would skip being put in the maze and go right to the cheese.

We too can make choices inside a already determined set of circumstances but we cannot choose to not be put in the maze. Although i suppose we can choose to end our lives and I think that is the only real freedom we have. We cannot disregard how much we are manipulated in the "choices" we make. I don't think we choose as much as people would believe rather living up to material desires, fashion, wanting look like those who we admire, so we buy and live in accordance to those trends, ideals, materials that we surround ourselves with looking to be comfortable with ourselves and such. Does a woman really want to push liquid filled sacks under her skin to make her breast bigger? or does she do this to live up to outside factors that persuade her to to do this in order to get something for it or look a certain way or receive compliments? Interesting, I don't know if that makes us free, or free to choose within a given set of guidelines, and then is that really a choice? Excellent thread!!!!

I've stared you on this post, your scenario with the mouse is most excellent I might add. Really I think subconsciously we all want to go straight to the cheese but I think we get a sense of control when we think we are making our own 'exclusive' choices even though society, advertising, morality steers us into making many of the choices anyway.

Theoretically speaking a large part of our personality is determined by the choices we make in life i.e. how we move through the maze to get to the cheese. Maybe this is why people are so defensive about the subject!

I am free to try to enjoy this brief period of embodiment and learn as much as I can about being physical.

I am free to focus on other goals when one material path is closed off from me.

If I am the mouse, I am free to explore my maze. I am free to check out all its passages, and wonder why it's blue instead of green. I am free to see what it feels like to drag my side against a wall.

We always have freedom if we let ourselves look for new possibilities.

I think it's a mistake to spend the century or less that we have in a body resenting that body.

edit for speeling

[edit on 11/20/08 by americandingbat]

Agreeing with dingbat

The thing is that there is a big chance that we chose to be here out of free will before being born by the way. So we always keep the ultimate freedom in 'ending the game' so to speak if we really want that. Seeing the body as a restriction is correct in a way but it is a chosen restriction. So in the ultimate sense we are still free, while being bound to this body for the most part. It would be a mistake to dismiss it, imo.

Originally posted by americandingbat
I am free to try to enjoy this brief period of embodiment and learn as much as I can about being physical.

I am free to focus on other goals when one material path is closed off from me.

If I am the mouse, I am free to explore my maze. I am free to check out all its passages, and wonder why it's blue instead of green. I am free to see what it feels like to drag my side against a wall.

We always have freedom if we let ourselves look for new possibilities.

I think it's a mistake to spend the century or less that we have in a body resenting that body.

edit for speeling

[edit on 11/20/08 by americandingbat]

Fantastic, this is the idea that I was trying to convey earlier. We will never ever EVER have an INFINITE pool of choice before us. There will always be restrictions. only God, Creater, Deity of choice, has that luxury.

We have the freedom to focus on whatever we choose to focus on. Well put, I like that.