I would recommend that everyone read at least the first page of the article linked, because it goes into the public perception of this new law and of dogs and cats in general. Apparently, most are baffled by the law and feel it is unneccessary and unreasonable. The article also describes the Saudi view of cats (generally respected as Muhammad had great affection for them) and dogs (often viewed as unclean and bothersome). It is interesting to note the cultural differences between this region and the West, cultural differences that the Muttawa (religious police) are very keen to maintain and even strengthen.

Remember, the Muttawa are the nutters who go around patrolling shopping centers to make sure that unmarried Saudis aren't "flirting" (which very often means even looking at one another or standing too close) and chastising people for having the audacity to walk their dog in public. It is going to take a very, very, very long time for this culture to come into line with modern times. I wouldn't be surprised if it were a century or more from now, honestly.


[edit on 19/11/08 by paperplanes]

culture to come into line with modern times

Don't you mean come in line with Western Culture?

The way I see it is that if people aren't satisfied with their lot in life they will do something about it. Non Western doesn't mean BAD.

I eat horse meat regularly and find absolutley nothing strange about it. There are people who think this to be absolutley barbaric. Do their opinions make it bad?

OFF topic: What the hell happened to the preview button??

Aleetha al-jihani is not only foolish but he must not be reading the Quran..




Dogs in the Quran....

It is interesting to know that dogs are mentioned in the Quran 5 times, not just once, 7:176, 18:18, 18:22 (three times). NO WHERE does God call the dogs dirty animals or give any indication that they should be avoided or treated the way many Muslims think they should. Actually the story of the people of the cave, in Sura 18, gives the indication. that we should appreciate.

The people of the cave, 3, 5 or 7 were mentioned in the Quran and every time God insists on letting us know that their dog was there with them. Their story can be as complete without the mention of the dog, but God did, Why ?

God is telling us these righteous people were in the cave with their dog, if it is not righteous to have dogs, God would not have told us that story in which the dog has to be remembered as being there. We have to know the quality of God, if we were to worship Him correctly. When God says something He means it, and when he does not, he means it as much. If God did not curse the dog and call it all kinds of name, it is because God wants us to know that He created that beautiful creature and He expected us to make all use and companinonship with that animal that accompanied these righteous people of the cave.

Fabricated hadiths contradict the Quran. Many of them narrated by Abu Hurayra. Abu Hurayra, whose name is translated as , father of the little cat, hated dogs and women and from his mouth came many hadiths that insulted women and cursed the dogs and make them undesirable animals that need to be avoided and in other hadiths killed.

These fabricted hadtihs were falsely attributed to the prophet Muhammed who cannot utter but the teachings of the Quran and would only be a living example of the Quran itself. The prophet Muhammed who lived by the Quran could not have done anything but agree with the Quran,not contradict it. God gave us a great criteria to judge His truth form the man-made fabrications;

"....If it were from othr than God, they would have found in numerous contradictions 4:82

Ah yes, I remember the Valentine's Day vilification very well. It is just so odd to hear these stories and realize that, thus far, the government there has not done something to curb the power the Muttawa (or Mutaween) holds. It really shows the vacuum that government lives in, where it is absolutely reasonable to criminalize something like a Valentine's Day gift and arrest men for so much as sitting near an unrelated woman. But for every one humorously absurd story about the Muttawa, there are ten more that are absolutely horrific. Their offenses have ranged from organizing public stoning to beheading school children to, as you note in your other thread, preventing young girls from escaping a burning building because they weren't wearing the appropriate Muslim clothing. It is just disgusting that something like that is allowed to occur anywhere, and with such power and impunity. Fortunately, the more I read about it, the more it seems that the progressive Muslims view the Muttawa as a stifling, unnecessary and brutish force. The progressives are a significant portion of the population, and seem to be increasing as younger, more liberal Muslims reach adulthood. I believe these cultures will have to go through a few more generations before they have purged this way of thinking. It is just so shocking that it is even viewed as reasonable.

I do have to wonder if the Muttawa and their supporters have really stopped to think of what their behavior is saying. It seems to me that by enforcing these ridiculous, superfluous rules, they are really suggesting that Muslims are too weak of character and their relationship to Islam to tenuous to police their own behavior. "Not only do we need to tell you who to marry, how to marry, and what to do in your marriage, but also when and if you can walk your dog, care for your cat, speak to a stranger in public..." and on and on. This is an insult to Muslims and their faith, by the very people who claim to be upholding Islam. If they feel that Muslims are so incapable of doing the right thing, and must be eternally restrained for fear of temptation, what does this say about Islam?

[edit on 19/11/08 by paperplanes]

Originally posted by Merigold

culture to come into line with modern times

Don't you mean come in line with Western Culture?

The way I see it is that if people aren't satisfied with their lot in life they will do something about it. Non Western doesn't mean BAD.

I eat horse meat regularly and find absolutley nothing strange about it. There are people who think this to be absolutley barbaric. Do their opinions make it bad?

Somehow I just knew that this would come up. By "come into line with modern times", I mean discontinue the stoning of women and men for public enjoyment, the brutal punishment of rape victims (and similar absolutely horrific subjugation of females), the banning of all dissident voices and their public expression, often subdued with murder, widespread torture of the guilty and innocent alike--the list goes on.

If by "Western culture" you mean the type of culture where this sort of thing is not allowed, then yes, absolutely--please, for chrissake, come into line with Western culture! If you find this idea disagreeable, I don't know how to help you. You seem to be lacking a fundamental aspect of rationality if the current state of the Muslim world is all right with you.

I have not heard much about the mutaween, it seems like their using islam as an instrument of fear on the local people, the goverment is probaly turning a blind eye to this, as control is in their favour.. People should speak to a respected Iman about anything there not sure about.. The mutaween are abusing authority and people..

Originally posted by Prima Facie
Aleetha al-jihani is not only foolish but he must not be reading the Quran..

Fabricated hadiths contradict the Quran. Many of them narrated by Abu Hurayra. Abu Hurayra, whose name is translated as , father of the little cat, hated dogs and women and from his mouth came many hadiths that insulted women and cursed the dogs and make them undesirable animals that need to be avoided and in other hadiths killed.

These fabricted hadtihs were falsely attributed to the prophet Muhammed who cannot utter but the teachings of the Quran and would only be a living example of the Quran itself. The prophet Muhammed who lived by the Quran could not have done anything but agree with the Quran,not contradict it. God gave us a great criteria to judge His truth form the man-made fabrications;

"....If it were from othr than God, they would have found in numerous contradictions 4:82

I understand that many rulings of the Muttawa are not in line with the Qur'an. The issue here, though, is the Muttawa's behavior in Saudi Arabia and the fact that the government there has allowed them to become so powerful.

What is it? with goverments wanting complete control of it's citizens.. It seems these days virtually every goverment on this planet is only interested in manipulating us for there gain.. The saudi goverment in this case letting the muttawa do their dirty work...

Originally posted by paperplanes
I understand that many rulings of the Muttawa are not in line with the Qur'an. The issue here, though, is the Muttawa's behavior in Saudi Arabia and the fact that the government there has allowed them to become so powerful.

Yes it seems the Saudi Royal family is allowing the religious police to get away with all manner of atrocities in the name of wahhabi islam.

From beheading witches,scalding and stoning adulterers,whipping women in town squares and harrassing and beating unmarried people right down to banning fashion,dogs,cats and red objects.

Perhaps this has to do with each iman's individual 'interpretation' of abrahamic lore (and the abuse of power by insecure people)-it doesn't just occur in Saudi Arabia-a young girl was recently sentenced and stoned to death by a shariah court in Somalia.



[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

Originally posted by Merigold

culture to come into line with modern times

Don't you mean come in line with Western Culture?

The way I see it is that if people aren't satisfied with their lot in life they will do something about it. Non Western doesn't mean BAD.

I eat horse meat regularly and find absolutley nothing strange about it. There are people who think this to be absolutley barbaric. Do their opinions make it bad?

Are you saying that all these reprehensible actions are just fine and it is Western people's fault that we cannot morally assimilate them?
If thats the case then maybe we should start beheading women at the half time period of the F.A. Cup final.


[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

It's kind of ironic seeing as the Saudi's are supposed to be our allies yet they call us infidels. If they did not have money I am sure they would have been taken over ages ago.

Originally posted by Grandma
I just know my God would not allow such things. Now, I know some of you are going to bring up OT days and what happened to Moses and all that. Just remember, Jesus, came to bridge the gap that was between man and his Creator.

Peace,
Grandma

Well, Grandma you're certainly entitles to your opinion...although I think all the abrahamic sects have the same heritage.
Cheers Karl

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]