Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

Believe what you want, but a superb auto tech is no where near as valuable as a superb exec or an interested board member. All positions are integral to the whole, that's true. And you can take any extreme angle you like, i.e. laborers are the foundation of society and if they go everyone goes, or that execs are the decision makers that bring everything and everyone together; neither stance proves anything.

You don't get an equal, or even a relatively similar, share in the profits. You get a share corresponding to the amount of production you are personally responsible for. If your job accounts directly for less production, then the company you work for can afford to hire many people in similar positions, thus driving down the price of your wage. But I do understand the cynicism many people show... You're a hard working and creative man. Do you really need managers? Do you really need executives to make financial and organizational decisions, especially when most of them are incompetent? That's more a question of character than merit. Hell, just take this to heart: if you're a better worker than your boss is a manager, then you're a better man. Ye, God! The fact is execs aren't as deep into the back pockets of their board members as many think. There are whole independent federal commissions responsible for the regulation of executive compensation. Exec pay is it's own independent market. The reason the government can't handle this issue is because the mortgage-backed securities fraud was the BIGGEST EVER perpetrated in human history. Nothing even compares to it. Just imagine the scope of it all. Sure there is going to be cynicism when there are a bunch of bad execs filling their pockets with all this stolen money. And now the government wants to TAX you? Of course you're mad. But the government isn't that smart. Taxing is the best they can think of. It's one of the few economic powers they really have. This whole fraud is way above and beyond them.

I know you don't mean getting paid "exactly" equal... that's obvious. But what are we talking here? "Higher positions" are "higher" for a reason... surely.

Anyway, this is slightly off-topic; so let me tie it in.

Americans are afraid of losing purchasing power. The national government, designed to protect its citizens' interest, is even more afraid of this shift toward foreign markets. National economic policy is plaguing this world. It has since the last decades of the nineteenth century... when the British abducted Chinese capital and infiltrated their markets. All the would-be entrepreneurs of China became extremists. They became increasingly socialist in nature until the formation of the first Communist parties. This in turn lead to a whole spur of nationalism in China itself, which has for all of its long history been of dynastic tradition. You paid homage to your King and Queen, but otherwise you associated yourself with the mountains or valleys you grew up in, the farm you worked, the cattle you raised, and not some arbitrary political border or identity.

By bailing out our industries, we fail capitalism. Capitalism is global by definition. Without national policy, you would see a massive redistribution of wealth to seemingly random locations on the planet; these new economic centers would not be aligned with the borders of any particular nation, but would exist within a domain produced by the commerce and exchange of the most industrious citizens from all sides of every border imaginable. America won't have any of this. It wants to keep this wealth in the hands of its citizens, and by extension, keep the power associated with that wealth in their own hands. This will give the federal government power because those citizens grant them that power; they show their support from having received all this wealth. This cycle has been going on and on forever since the Greek city-state leagues and the Athenian empire. They were all a bunch of greedy bastards.

We are so in-grained with the wealth and comfort we currently experience in our society today in America and we can attribute all that to national economic policy. I'm sure you protest about the living conditions and the work quality of people making Nike shoes in Indonesia, but the reason they experience that is because you enjoy the life you live. It's not like you could have provided for your family and own everything you own on your terms. Everyone in this country is responsible. But also, everyone in this country is obligated to show their support for those that brought them this wealth.

By bailing out our industries, we are reducing production possibilities and economic growth elsewhere, both abroad and in our very own country. Well, that's a pretty weak conclusion... since everyone's a nationalist these days. But it just precipitates and precipitates until we can no longer handle it and all out war breaks loose. And if not through military conflict, then severe depression, widespread famine and human suffering will bring about a hell on earth.

I can't stress enough how all of history is written today, and all of today is written in history. All the world's problems lie in the history books.

[edit on 19-11-2008 by cognoscente]

In a capitalist society, it should be survival of the fittest.
Give the $25b to someone who can make a car people will buy, and stop paying union members $80 an hour.
God, have a university competition, and the winner sets up a plant and production line. There's 500,000 people down here would work it for $20 an hour, and be happy!
Have a referendum! Put some options on the table and let the tax payers decide what happens with their money.

Here's the deal, as NPR so eloquently put it:

If the Big 3 go bankrupt, guess what? You will not be able to buy any new cars for perhaps 6-8 months or more. Maybe even longer than that. And don't even bother with used cars.

Why?

Because of this: Each car, no matter who the manufacturer is, comprises anywhere from 8,000 to 14,000 parts. The automakers DO NOT make every part for every car. There are several thousand independent car parts suppliers in the US. Their major clients are the big 3 automakers. Those small American companies also supply Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Honda and Hyundai.

If these small businesses lose their major clients (i.e. the Big 3), then these small parts manufacturers GO OUT OF BUSINESS. Toyota, Honda and the other foreign car makers are just not big enough in America to keep these small American companies in business. They cannot survive just off the revenues of the foreign automakers.

Cars are complex machines. If you cannot get a single bolt that is specified by a maker, then you don't get a car. AT ALL. JUST ONE missing piece, and the car DOES NOT WORK.

This means that not only will you not have parts for your American cars, you wont have parts for many foreign cars either. You won't be able to get that spring fixed for your BMW. You wont be able to get that turn signal fixed for your Camry. That is, until an INDIAN or CHINESE company come to the rescue and supply those parts.

So now, this is what happened: You just transferred thousands of jobs from America to India or China.
Happy now?

Losing the Big 3 means losing thousands of small parts manufacturers. Losing them means the end of AMERICAN car parts suppliers. You won't be able to get that replacement brake pad. Why? Because the small company in Ohio that makes that brake pad just went out of business. Because their major client went bankrupt.

[edit on 19-11-2008 by astron1000]

I understand how it involves the corporate irresponsibility, the fiscal mismanagement, and the CEO's greedy inability to budge on demands for the bailout. It sucks, I'm a laidoff robotics employee turned carpenter once again in my life. I live right down the street from Chrysler's world headquarters and know MANY friends who work within the finely woven web of the big three. None exactly blue collar, not executives either, just workers. My best friend lacking a degree worked his ass off to get up within a small vendor of Chrysler. I can feel the tension and the broken voices on the phone after I got laid off.

"So man how do you do it?"
"What can I expect?"
"$%^( do I do?"

I have no children and am not married.. It sucks and If your from Michigan you can feel it in the air here. ALOT , I mean a TON of people are screwed.

I hear people bickering about whether or not its a recession, a depression , the next Great depression. Up here its shock. I read The Grapes of Wrath, its that bad. Its families who have never learned how to survive. They are not like us here on the boards, not at all. These are the people who are getting the shock of their life and never saw it coming.

Ill be the first to admit my friends are the sheeple. Kinda. They're just thirty somethings trying to live the american dream like the rest of us, and now theyre in for the ride of their lives because of the greed of so few.

Sorry for rant , my second job as a finish carpenter is under fire now because of this mess. Im moving south. It sucks and i know ill love it but its scary as hell up here. I dont support any kind of bailout that involves just handing out taxpayer money , thats revolting. What i REALLY dont support is the greed of some unchosen few being rewarded by riches I could never see in my lifetime while my friends starve. Im sickened by corporate america and The now laid off , tomorrow "are buying guns"... This is bull and we all are friggin stupid to even pass it off as anything else. ITS A DEPRESSION. Im seeing it for the first time in my 36 year old eyes.

Its Steinbeck and Rockefeller and a great dustbowl here. My head is spinning. I want to agree with a bailout for obviously personal reasons, but I understand the dilemna... It hurts.

reply to post by astron1000

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That is not accurate. The Big 3 all or any if Bankruptcy is filed can obtain DIP Financing (Debtor In Possession). This would allow for creditors to be paid in pre packaged settlement the value of their available debt owed. This allows suppliers and other creditors to maintian their operations. However, I'm sure under capitalized suppliers and vendors would collapse even with their portion of debt repayment paid up front through DIP financing. That won't matter though because there will only be room for the healthy suppliers in the auto market at that point with the Big 3 gone anyway.

So Bankruptcy will not stop all auto production, it will only weed out the over surplus unhealthy suppliers and vendors, which will be necessary with the decreased auto demand and output capability.

The point is, there is no such thing as a "healthy supplier." American suppliers of auto parts depend on American auto manufacturers for most of their business. Eliminating, say, 50% of your revenue because of American automaker bankruptcies sure makes you vulnerable to bankruptcy yourself.

The US car market depends on UNIQUE suppliers, not generic ones. The fact that foreign car parts suppliers would be much more responsive to filling the void quickly rather than taking time for new American suppliers to ramp up their production (and again, given costs, why would they?) means that thousands of jobs would be lost to overseas concerns.

Is anyone here seriously suggesting that the bankruptcy of the Big 3 would NOT result in the loss of American jobs to foreign businesses???

To be clear: I am NOT necessarily a fan of unions. I am NOT advocating that Detroit continues its self-destructive course with a free bail-out. I AM in favor of Barney Frank's approach that Detroit gets an infusion of cash, as a loan, and would be required to pay it back to the government with the stipulation that Detroit has a rock-solid plan of alleviating their long-term debt issues.

[edit on 19-11-2008 by astron1000]

I think you're looking for the USSR. They did not allow freedom of religion there.

Detroit dropped the ball again, let them fail.

Their business model is extinct. They are not producing the cars we need. We can't afford the 13-17 mpg cars when the next wave of oil greed comes along. 100mpg cars have been around for years, but they refused to make them. Now we are all paying thanks to Detroit, the bankers & the oil barons.

Time to cut the fat cat parasites.

100+ Mpg car that the Auto Companies ignored

How about giving the 26 billion to the small companies making electric cars & air cars?

YouTube Link

YouTube Link

[edit on 19-11-2008 by verylowfrequency]

Let the Big Three fail and get ready for the ride. All of you who think that is a good idea to let them go down and then watch the American auto industry rebuild from the ashes are in for a rude awakening. There won't be time for it to repair itself. This country will go in the dumper so fast it will make your head spin. GM goes down and it going to drag half this country down with it. It's going to be like pulling the plug on a washtub. Pull the plug and watch the American economy swirl down the drain. It won't take long.
The automakers definitely have to change the way they are doing business. Any bailout money should have strings forcing them to make these changes. There isn't time to let them fail and rebuild. The whole economy is teetering on the edge right now. Letting the auto makers fail will be enough to push it over the edge.
All of you sitting back with what you feel are your safe non auto related jobs are going to be sucked down the drain with everyone else.
Anyone who sees this as an auto industry issue only will be in for a major surprise.

reply to post by astron1000

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No one is implying that no jobs would be lost. Yes there will be pain of unemployment and failed subsidiary businesses all the way down to restaurants and bars near auto hubs and plants etc. So what?

Propping up failed businesses is not free market capitalism. Out with the old in with the newer, better, more eager and aggressive business model.

What you are proposing is Socialist Facism. You are afraid of a collapse, depression, adapting. It is needed to flush out our failures. Beleive me, the intelligent, aware, adaptive, and aggressive entrepreneurs see much opportunity on the other side of a collapse.

Adapt, get used to a new system, maybe not as good as the past. But it is inevitable and we can't stop it. Opportunity will still exist for those who are aware and learn the new game.

sorry but sometimes things need to go down in flames to come out of the ashes. a phoenix. will jobs be lost ? yes but sometimes risks need to be made in order for the rebuilding to occur. i see private companies buying up these 3 sectors anyway.

why doesnt the government just use that 25 bil to pay for the auto workers pensions if these companies do go out of business? way better than just giving it to the companies to stay alive for another 6 months.

[edit on 19-11-2008 by Swatman]

So you are in favor of losing thousands of American jobs to other countries, eh?

I agree that Detroit has failed us. But to abandon Detroit means all of our cars will come from Japan, China, Germany and India. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. but American industry should be able to compete.

What's needed, if we want an American car industry to survive, is that WE put strict requirements on an infusion of cash to Detroit. Make them create cars with a certain MPG or a certain performance standard as a requirement for a bailout. Otherwise, I agree...Let them rot. But don't complain then that we've lost all these jobs.

I AM NOT advocating free money to Detroit. I agree with you that the US auto industry has wasted years and billions of dollars on gas-guzzling ego-loving mega-cars. Detroit MUST give up it's back-seat love affair with the oil industry.

[edit on 19-11-2008 by astron1000]

reply to post by astron1000

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And I don't think it's an issue that those industries are transferred to other nations. This is the first step in a long leap towards globalism. As things are heading, there will be a massive redistribution of wealth to other parts of the world. Only by embracing globalism, free trade, and competition (we've forgot what this means) can we ensure the financial success of our country. The only other option, which has already manifested in the recent Gulf Wars, is military conflict and imperial expansion. That just can't be tolerated in a modern world. That would mean World War III.

For America, this is simply an opportunity to prove that we can still compete. America is the kid at the back of the class who fell asleep because he got a couple A's in the math course he's taking. That kid is getting a free kick in the back of the head, a reminder that complacency doesn't produce success. Time to wake up or flunk out.

ONLY bankruptcy will solve this problem. You can't fix bad human qualities by patching them up. The whole yarn will shred up into little bits and pieces over time. There is only so much integrity you can build up for someone else, the rest has to be self inspired.

What we need is a new cut from a new cloth.

National economic policy is the thing of the nineteenth century.

[edit on 19-11-2008 by cognoscente]

for those of you who dont think the big three offer quality products, here are a few links. (besides chrysler)

blogs.thecarconnection.com...

www.jdpower.com...-anchor

www.jdpower.com...-anchor

Last year, toyota had the camry and tundra dropped from there "recommended" cars because they were below average. ( i believe they are recommended this year though)

blogs.consumerreports.org...

www.edmunds.com...=123049

[edit on 19-11-2008 by tdubz]

reply to post by duster

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No one is letting them go down. They let themselves go down. A bailout will not prevent them from failing, maybe delay it, not even a year. That is your fundamental misconception of economic survival. Yea, it will drag the economy down quite a bit further. We are headed into a very bad depression as it is anyway. Car sales are crashing due to credit slashing of consumers, unemployment, and the rest of our global financial and economic meltdown. Throwing good money on top of bad is completely foolsih.

Understand this. Whichever of the Big 3 go down without receiving a bailout were going down anyway. period.

tdubz every person in my family has owned a honda or toyota for as long as i could remember. and not one has ever needed a major repair ever. friends that i know that have ford or gmc have had to have transmissions fixed before 90,000 miles is even hit

you cannot compare japanese cars to american, Japanese cars are the A students and american cars are the C students. the quality just isnt there.

reply to post by Question

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Huh. I did that myself- I wrote my NC rep and 'politely' asked for him to lobby me some bailout cash. Even told him what I needed it for.

Then I told my friends. They have acted like I lost every last BIT of my mind. I suggest they do the same thing. "No, no" they said. "Good luck with that", they said.

And that, boys and girls is why we got robbed. And stay robbed.


BTW- I own a 70 VW beetle. I shall stand and salute when the big 3 sink below the waves.