Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

I do not think China is so dumb to buy a sinking ship when
they could simply start a car company of their own.

They are more impressed with diesel-electric hybrids than
anything coming out of Detroit.

Some diesel electrics get 225 mpg.

www.rqriley.com...

Thou it is a kit car more or less.

The main problem with the American auto industry is that they produce AWFUL products. It really is that simple, they have not made a proper car in 30 years. Consumers are not stupid. Why should they spend hard earned money on a inferior product when they could buy a "import" that was most likely built in the USA like toyota for an example.

GM Ford and Chrysler make cheap junky products and they make to many of them.

GM alone makes 86 vehicles spread out among the various brands. Every single one is crap. Instead of focusing on quality and not quanity they have lost any type of brand loyality. Do they need buick, saturn, GMC, or Pontiac? If they just had Chevy and Cadillac they wouldn't be forced to spread so much money around and end up with a water downed product.

Should they get a bailout? Yes. Do they deserve one? NO! At the moment the current heads of these companies are morons. They need to go ASAP. There needs to be a set of rules in place when they get the bailout.

The auto industry employs too many people to just disappear. It would be the death blow to the US economy. Think of the hundreds if not thousands of industries that would be effected outside of the car world. New car companies would not just spring up like some of you think. The logistics take decades to develop.

[edit on 19-11-2008 by drock905]

I think its interesting that people speculate that the unions are crushing this industry. The fact is we as americans have a choice. We either become a Socialist nation, such as in Europe. Or we stay capitalist. Both are vetted with issues.

If we choose a Socialist path, Socialized medicine, Unions, Higher wages are par for the course. The problem you get is stagnation, loss of tech prowess, laziness in the nation as a whole. Yes it has its goods, but there are also its bads.

If we choose Capitalism, Let the Banks fails, let the auto industry fail, and any other industry fail. What happens? You have massive unemployment, this results in a loss of lifestyle, this creates a catastrophic collapse of the world.

The U.S. is the Bellwether of the world, where we go, so goes the rest of the sheep. This isn't because we are better, this is because for so long we have been the largest consumer.

This is the same issue that impacts the U.S. Instead of shutting down detroit, make all car manufacturers adhere to the same standards.

1.) All cars, and car parts made in the u.s.
2.) they must be unionized.
3.) there entire fleet of new vehicles must be non-gas, or hybrid by 2020.

What does this accomplish?

1.) cheap manufacturering goes away overseas. Therefore in order for the other car companies that are non u.s. to compete they must move operations to the u.s., Manufacturering plants are bought, domestic employement increases.

2.) with unionization, its irrelevant of what car company builds what model. You have the same union producing all models. Same pay, same benefits. You eliminate the union then as a variable of cost. It would be the same nationwide.

3.) you force innovation.

I think the problem that has been facing the u.s. is someones crack dream that there should be free trade. Free trade only benefits the bottom feeders, not wealthy nations.

If China wants to send 800 Billion of product to the U.S. then they need to take 800 billion of product. This is what free trade is, This means no imbalance. The imbalance is whats killing the u.s. economy right now.

Instead of bailing out Detroit, make trade fair and free, stop the deficits, and you bring the economy back to life. Yes, things get more expensive, but you know what, if you got a job, and a union, they'll make sure you have enough to afford it.

Right now the u.s. is stuck in a position, where we have all the markings of socialism, but non of the benefits. This just plain sucks. If we go socialism, we need to go all out. If not, we need protectionism to help our economy recover.

just my 2 cents, I by no means am an expert, but I have quarterbacked many a football game from my couch, and this my friends is no different. Peace, love, and all that.


Cheers

reply to post by Realtruth

---

I don't disagree with you much Realtruth, the government will eventually have to severely cut many outlays including defense, medicare, social security, and other large programs. No one wants to hear that but it's a mathematical certainty. I'm just waiting for a bond market event to happen now, especially since Obama mentioned "he wasn't going to worry about the deficit for the first year or two" in the word of Master Yoda "He will, he will".

I'm extremely pissed about the multi-trillion financial bailout, and don't have it in me to support another one. I might have been able to get behind this reluctantly had we not had recent futile attempts to save an industry from its own excesses on the front page of every financial publication.Guess what though if all 3 Detroit companies go bankrupt, cars will still be made in America, they will be toyotas, hondas, kias, hyundais, and even BMWs.

Why not let the auto industry BK and then reorganize with the .gov stepping in on National Security grounds if needed during the reorganization?

Toyota Camry are produced in the USA by US workers, they have less than 3% error rate on production and have a very spartan plant compared to GM, Ford, Chrysler. It can be done in the USA, but it has to start with a good attitude and ethical CEO's.

But it is ok for millions of tons of rubber dog #hit from China to continuously poor in and people by it up.

Our country is just starting to wake up, but it may already be to late.

agree 100% with romney. why couldnt this guy have been the GOP pres candidate. he knows how it is and is the perfect candidate in an economic hard time. the frickin guys dad was the head of GM.

reply to post by jefwane

---

The Big 3 will not go bankrupt. Here is my prediction, they will close ranks and kick all the a-holes out that are currently running the companies, this will be done by the workers actually personally stepping up to the plate and taking pay cuts. People will wake up and take more pride in their work ethics.

Detroit has many talented, trained skilled workers, actually generations of them all those years of production, schooling, trades are not a waste.

I also believe this will transpire on a nationwide level, because people are sick of the lazy fcks, that are bleeding the system. If someone doesn't perform they are history. I also don't believe that because someone has a higher level job they deserve more, if you put your time in you share equally in the corporate earnings, if the company losses so does the group as a whole.

I know there is a company here in the USA that runs this way and they are extremely profitable, and everyone takes pride in what they do, if someone does not perform it's by by. Can't remember the name right now, but i'll post it when it comes to me.

I have zero problems with any and all the Us auto makers going belly up. I feel they have produced bad products for years, are grossly mismanaged, and have a cry baby work force who have enough money to buy influence at all levels of government.

I have bashed their union in other posts and they deserve every bit of it. Before anyone thinks of me as a union buster, I'm probably one of the very few on this board who routinely hire union plumbers, pipe fitters, and electricians. I have no problem paying a sub $80 to $90 an hour for his shop rate or to hire out the locals at prevailing wages up to $45 an hour.

Look at my profile and see what I do for a living. I know a little bit about unions and contracts. But the automakers are different. You're paying skilled pay for unskilled work. A guy putting lug nuts on a wheel can receive a decent wage, but it shouldn't be at the same level of the guy fixing the equipment and or maintaining the heavy equipment used by the unskilled workers. But you can't tell that to the thousands of UAW lug nut drivers who out vote the really skilled labor they do have. They have priced themselves out of business.

Now I feel better. I think I'll drive my Isuzu Trooper for a while to charge my cell phone.

His father was part of American Motors and they failed. Romney is an idiot IMO.
If Romney can't come up with a constructive solution then he should keep his mouth shut.

Time to start looking for solutions, instead of turning on each other.

Unions will take a beating though, but they will change with the times no more hiding behind union bosses.

Maybe we have passed the point of no return and society will completely break down, but I truly hope not.

Our infrastructure here in the USA is not so bad we just have to realize what we actually have and appreciate it.

[edit on 19-11-2008 by Realtruth]

I honestly don't know what to do. Romney has some good points, without the danger of the companies totally collapsing, there will be no real reason for the to change the way they do business. All three of the "Big 3" need to be restructured, almost from the ground up. The Retirement and health care obligations are tremendous drags on them as well as the current Union contracts.

It's a no win situation, bail them out and it's probably throwing good money down a hole if Detroit doesn't radically change the way they do business. If we don't bail them out, at least one if not more of them fold, causing massive ripples in the economy with such job losses.

The Government has turned a new page in it's economic policies with of bailing out the banking industry. Even then, it picked and chose who lived and who died.

While I think that it is best that the Big three evolve, bailing them out is not the way to go. All it will do is prolong the way they do business, not compelling them to radically change.

Having said that, the collapse of the any of the Big Three might be the thing that takes us from the big R to the Big D.

We might need the Big D to get us thinking right as a nation again.

Won't be pushed around, ROFLMAO

It is far too late already.

They already have their plans for 90% of the population
and carved them in stone.

en.wikipedia.org...

The Russians took the hint and started preparing accordingly
by building a massive underground complex to house 60,000 ppl
and take 6 target on target nuke hits and survive.

www.globalsecurity.org...

The way the US will fall is the stealth cruise missile with
nuclear warhead with a 5,000 km range.

It is on Some of their bombers, most of their ships,
and most of their subs.

Its an upgraded variant of the KH-102 called the X-555:

www.globalsecurity.org...

When the time comes they let the Russians take the blame
for the war and act like they didn't coerce the Russians but
plenty has been going on to show the Russians are getting upset.

In early 2008 they moved to the new doctrine of preemptive
nuclear strike in regards to Europe and the US.

www.mnweekly.ru...

Putin and his replacement were targetted for Assassination
but managed to avoid it due to some good work from agents.

www.telegraph.co.uk...'foiled'.html

All this adds up to some nervous ppl in Moscow.

Putin has been known to trapse around tigers and even tranquilized
one that was about to attack someone.

Putin was the Russian Judo champ for some time, yet he makes
the statement that the US is a frightening monster...I wonder why?

www.bloomberg.com...

I think we are all being setup for a little miss direction.

Please romney is no idiot. hes not a self made millionare for being stupid. the guy is all about business. and AM didnt fail on his watch

[edit on 19-11-2008 by Swatman]

reply to post by Realtruth

---

That is basically what I was saying. Toyota/Nissan design a better product. GM Ford and Chrysler do not, they have poor quality control and poor designs. Its not the plant workers, it is the cost cutting measures that the big 3 have had to employ to try to compete with imports. That resluts in:

No real innovation
Cheap materials
Boring designs
No quality (bad panel gaps, squeaks and rattles, plastic interiors)

There was a time when most Americans would not have even considered an import. Those days are gone but the big 3 still think they exist and have rested on thier laurels for way too long. They cannot understand why americans have no pride in american cars.
The heads of these compaines come across as bean counters ( and not very good ones) It is 100 percent the fault of the Presidents and CEOs.

The car in America is an interesting product. People are passionate about them and care about them. For good or bad a car is a big deal with most people. Your not passionate about your stove or microwave, they just do a job. These compaines have lost the passion and how to understand what consumers want. They are paying the price.

reply to post by Ex_MislTech

---

Sure they would or any Japanese manufacturer as well. To purchase the Big 3 infrastructure, plants, bldgs, etc., etc. at cents on the dollar would be a great deal for say Hyundai, Nissan etc. They dont buy the Big 3 Business model just assets.

bankrupty Ch 11 - reorganize management, restructure business plan, bankruptcy trustee manages creditor settlments, business continues to operate. Sell at negotiated price allowing creditors to recapture 25 to 50 cents on dollar.

Ch 7 liquidation of assests at cents on the dollar (all assets, production infrastructure, etc.)

White Knight - Cherry Motors of China offers 20 cents on the dollar right now. Forego most Bankruptcy legal costs, creditors accept discounted debt repayment. Cherry owns infrastructure of one of GM.

The trickle down lay off number currently stands at 3 million
expected to lose their jobs if GM, Ford, and Chrysler decided to
scrap their domestic names and debts.

They will most likely move the well heeled top dogs to the offshore
subsidiaries and dump the pensions and the debt, and say have
a nice day Ms. USA.

Recently GM built a huge plant in India, pretty good timing if you ask me.

It is damned if we do, damned if we don't, no matter the course
the US is well and truly screwed.

reply to post by Realtruth

---

That would be a Grand Scenario. However, that is not how the business world, and contract law works.

The issue is they owe massive debt which they have no way of repaying. To all suppliers, vendors, lenders, private capital, etc., etc.

The issue is repayment of debt. There is only 2 basic options at this point (as no Private capital has shown any interest in lending to any Big 3 for some time, raising capital in any way has failed over the last year for GM):Only Bankruptcy or Bailout.

GM and Chrysler should go down in flames... I take exception with Ford because they at least are somewhat well managed. This shortsighted vision of the US automakers is what got us in trouble in the first place.

Even if they liquidate someone is going to step in and by those assets, put those factories back in playand even if that don't happen then we should move on.

We have to look at the future and not the past and thats is somehting that these companies have failed to do time and time again.

hopefully darwins survival of the fittest comes into play in this incident.

reply to post by drock905

---

There needs to be a real change in the way the Big 3 operate.

Do the American workers at a Japanese plant in the U.S. make poor automobiles? Obviously it is something in the way the companies operate, not just the employees. Is the Camry a poorly made American Car?

I just don't get how the Big 3 have managed to stay so relatively uncompetitive?