Another Clintonista Joins the Club, page 2
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ATS Members have flagged this thread 2 times


reply posted on 19-11-2008 @ 10:07 AM by HunkaHunka
reply to post by jibeho



For all of those who say things like "How is this change?"


Keep in mind that the change is in Policy, which comes from the Executive.

He still needs experienced people, on both sides of the aisle to carry out that policy.


Why don't people see this? Maybe because they've never actually studied Political Science. Who knows.



reply posted on 19-11-2008 @ 10:30 AM by Irish M1ck
reply to post by FlyersFan



Seriously? You are saying that Obama is no better of a speaker than Bush?


reply posted on 19-11-2008 @ 11:38 AM by FlyersFan
Originally posted by Irish M1ck
Seriously? You are saying that Obama is no better of a speaker than Bush?

Seriously. There are tons of threads here on it. The guy can't string together two sentences without uh-uh-oh-um-uh unless he's on a teleprompter. Bush is a lousy speaker. So is obama - off teleprompter.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
What complaints would they have about Obama then?

You really need to get over yourself.

Obama ran on 'CHANGE' and he said change everything.
He's filling his positions with lobbyists and Clintonistas.
He lied. You bought it. You still do.
Amazing.


There is plenty to complain about Obama - from his lies at claiming 'change', to his 'spread the wealth', to his disarming of America, to his stand on taxes, to his stand in the culture-of-death, to his flip flops, to his problems with the 2nd Amendment, to his severe lack of experience, to his narcassistic self-messianic rhetoric. etc etc

He is not change. He said he was. He has already shown that he's not.
Dragging in the old guard. The old ways. Hiring those who 'were the problem' - lobbyists and the old corruption machines.

If he planned on doing that to counter his severe lack of experience then he shouldn't have promised change and he shouldn't have promised not to hire lobbyists.

No change. No hope. No unity. Just more of the same old politics. And no, that's not because I hope it will be that way (how pathetic of you to claim that), it's because that's just the truth of the situation.

ON TOPIC -

ERIC HOLDER - he approved of the Marc Rich pardon during the Clinton pardon-gate problems. Holder's official stand was, to quote him, "neutral leaning toward approval". Rich's ex-wife bought the pardon through donations to the Clinton Library and yet this fella, Holder, approved of the pardon (or at the very least didn't condemn it)

Lovely.

Yeah .. this appointment is a real 'change' from the old way Washington does things.


reply posted on 19-11-2008 @ 11:45 AM by Irish M1ck
reply to post by FlyersFan



It's funny because most experts disagree. Obama is thought of as an eloquent speaker who can inspire. He does use "umms" and "uhhs", but he uses them effectively, in a manner that makes it not look stupid.

He does not make a verbal gaff every time he opens his mouth like Bush does.

Honestly, it doesn't matter. I don't even care, there's no reason to argue with you. What do you know about speaking techniques? Everyone knows Obama is a good speaker, but for you, it's just one more thing you can ignore and pretend you know something everyone else doesn't.



Type "eloquent Obama" into google and view the results. Then type "eloquent McCain in".

With McCain, the only hits are either in reference to Obama, OR McCain's exit speech - which was eloquent.

Pfft, Obama's not a good speaker... says who? You?

[edit on 19-11-2008 by Irish M1ck]


reply posted on 19-11-2008 @ 11:51 AM by HunkaHunka
reply to post by Irish M1ck



Yep Irish M1ck!


Most people don't realize that when he says "uh---uhmm" that he is actually thinking about what he is about to say. As opposed to those who believe thinking about an issue causes more problems (i.e. Rove).


reply posted on 19-11-2008 @ 11:57 AM by Irish M1ck
reply to post by HunkaHunka





How can Obama be such a good speaker that he is like Hitler on one thread, and then so bad that he's like Bush in another?

These mudslingers needs to organize and get their stories straight!

[edit on 19-11-2008 by Irish M1ck]


reply posted on 19-11-2008 @ 12:09 PM by Irish M1ck
reply to post by FlyersFan



You're the one making the accusation. I just rebut what other's say if I think it's untrue.

So, you cited one example where Obama verbally gaffed. Here's at least a few non-teleprompter interviews where Obama spoke as usual:

Obama Interview (skip over the initial speech)

Interview with O'Reilly, which you know he didn't make easy on Obama

Interview in 2002 about Iraq

Cite one gaff, where he had trouble citing a statistic (who hasn't done that?), and I can cite 15 more where he spoke perfectly.

There is also a fundamental difference in the gaffs of Bush and Obama. Bush speaks unintelligently, in general. He says nuc - u - lar for instance. He calls people tearrrists. And it is often obvious from his response that he doesn't have a full understanding of the subject.

That's not the same as having trouble spitting the words out correctly.


reply posted on 19-11-2008 @ 12:15 PM by Benevolent Heretic
Originally posted by sos37
Oh yeah, the Zogby poll already answered why this happened. It revealed that most Obama supporters didn't actually care about the real political issues.


"Real political issues"? You didn't look at the
questions from the poll, did you? Hardly "real political issues"... Of course, if Sara Palin's wardrobe and pregnant teenage daughters, McCain's houses and candidate's gaffes are your idea of "real political issues" then I guess we have a different idea of what's important...

On a happy note: Holder on Bush: Executive Power


Judging by his past statements, Eric Holder Jr., reportedly Barack Obama's top pick for attorney general, may aim to roll back several of the Bush administration's most controversial legal moves if he is selected for the post.

In a June speech to the American Constitution Society, Holder said the Bush administration had taken many steps that "were both excessive and unlawful" in the wake of the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks.

"I never thought I would see the day when a Justice Department would claim that only the most extreme infliction of pain and physical abuse constitutes torture and that acts that are merely cruel, inhuman and degrading are consistent with United States law and policy, that the Supreme Court would have to order the president of the United States to treat detainees in accordance with the Geneva Convention, never thought that I would see that a president would act in direct defiance of federal law by authorizing warrantless NSA surveillance of American citizens. This disrespect for the rule of law is not only wrong, it is destructive in our struggle against terrorism," Holder said in the speech.


Woo-hoo! I like this guy already! That's some change I can BELIEVE in!

[edit on 19-11-2008 by Benevolent Heretic]


reply posted on 19-11-2008 @ 12:25 PM by jibeho

An investigation championed by House Government Reform Committee chairman Rep. Dan Burton concluded, in a 2003 report covering 177 Clinton pardons, that Holder had played a significant role in facilitating the Rich pardon, first by recommending the well-connected Jack Quinn to Marc Rich legal representatives, and by eventually delivering a favorable opinion of the twilight pardon to the President from a position of authority.[18]

query.nytimes.com...

A little on Rich.

On January 20, 2001, hours before leaving office, President Bill Clinton granted Rich a presidential pardon. Since Rich's former wife and mother of his three children, socialite Denise Rich, had made large donations to the Democratic Party and the Clinton Library during Clinton's time in office, Clinton's critics alleged that Rich's pardon had been bought. Rich had also made substantial donations to Israeli charitable foundations. Clinton explained his decision by noting that similar situations were settled in civil, not criminal court, and cited clemency pleas from Israeli government officials, including Prime Minister Ehud Barak. Federal Prosecutor Mary Jo White was appointed to investigate. She stepped down before the investigation was finished and was replaced by James Comey. Though Comey was critical of Clinton's pardons, he could not find any grounds on which to indict him.


en.wikipedia.org...

Mark Rich


One of the charges brought against him before he fled the US, was trading oil with Iran - a country which at that time was considered an enemy state.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Did Eric Holder use good judgement?
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