I want socialism.

Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife
reply to post by operation mindcrime

 

Really? According to wiki upload.wikimedia.org... they all have less than 50 million.

So now the European Union makes all the laws and everybody pays taxes out to EU and the Netherlands, Norway, Italy, UK, Germany all don't have separate governments? That is new to me I figured that would be big news if all of Europe decided to ban together and operate under one government.

Either way the USA has 300+ million people all living under one government system. And I can go on in the ways the USA and the European countries are different.

So really I don't see what you are trying to point out or prove by skewing the numbers.

check it out my friend...

list of countries and their inhabibtants

And no...we still have our own laws and pay taxes in our own country...
But we also have a lot of european laws ,yes and as for taxes....believe it or not but i recently moved just across the border into germany and i get to choose in witch country i pay my taxes......Netherlands or Germany. That's all because i work in the Netherlands and live in Germany...

I think we will have to agree to disagree here. There is far too big a gap in thinking and cultures between Europeans and Americans for ideas to come together.

All I will say is, that I am in a sector whereby I could walk straight into a job in the US and earn at least 3x the salary that I am being paid now and do you know what, I would'nt live and work in America for all the Tea in China.

Originally posted by NettleTea
[So if I understand you correctly, you have just verbally bowed your knees to the EU. You forgo any national sovereignty and no longer claim any civil duty but to the EU. You are now a servant to a one continent state?

Why...why in the name of sweet jesus does eveything with you people have to be about giving up your freedom.

The European union became a fact in 1992 and after many resolutions everybody agrees that this a good thing. The only thing that brought some difficulty was the introduction of the euro (here in the Netherlands)
Countries are lining up to join us ,why would that be you think????

Originally posted by Jkd Up
Wouldn't it be great to take all the best parts of the way other countrys are operating and adapt only the best parts... But wait a minute... Wasn't that Democracy?

Democracy in america isn't real democracy. There are leftist governments that are more domocratic than the U.S.

reply to post by operation mindcrime


Ok, so it is still significantly less that 300 million people. I don't see what you are trying to get at.

There is no comparison between 300 million and at most 82 million people your still looking at a little less than 5X the people, like around 4.7X.

What you just said kind of reminds me of what we have going on here in the states we have federal taxes and state taxes. So the EU is acting like a federal government, the US must not be that bad if the EU has adopted a form of the US government system.

But like you said about paying taxes in the Netherlands, while living in Germany same thing if I lived in New Jersey and worked in New York I'd pay New York taxes, except when it came to property tax and things that I buy in New Jersey.

None the Less you still have sovereign independent (although it seems like it is being less and less that from what you said) countries that look after their people in the country.

One of the differences between US and EU that hasn't been touched on yet is the fact that US has a positive birth rate, while the EU approaching the tipping point toward a negative birth rate.

source

I believe that the US's growth in population leads to the instabilities trending in the direction of unemployment and "people falling through the cracks." In Europe, the stable to negative birth rate makes universal social services more efficient. In other words, Europe had beggars too, when it was growing.

A second issue is the two regime's response to immigration. I believe that the US has been much more open and accepting toward its largest immigrant population (hispanic), with them rapidly becoming stakeholders in the social structure.

In Europe, the top-down social engineering has had a much more drastic impact on the middle eastern immigration. Americans have not seen the sort of widespread immigrant riots that were sweeping several european capitals. The closest thing that America has seen is the experience of blacks, who had been largely confined to the inner urban areas until after the LA riots of 1992. Basically, the black experience in America I think is similar to ME experience in Europe, much of the real poverty in both societies is in those two minorities.

The final thing is....media bias.

Because media orgs in both US and EU are pro-socialism, the presence of the underclass in america is magnified by the camera lens. European problems are swept under the rug, and media in both places help perpetrate this slant.

What level of the US population do YOU believe is homeless right now??

Five percent?

Three Percent?

Try a quarter of 1 percent..

That's less than 3 people in a thousand......

I cannot even begin to find raw data for Europe. Most compare numbers of "respondents who have ever been homeless." which is usually about half the US figures. But that isn't the same has asking how many are homeless tonight.

The European Federation of National Organizations Working with the Homeless looks like an excellent resource. I notice that they begin by pointing out that different governments classify the problem differently; i.e., excluding 'guest workers' and illegals from their numbers, whereas these numbers are ALWAYS included in US estimates.

all the best.

reply to post by Hastobemoretolife


The European Union actually has close to 500 million people across 27 Nations and is still expanding.

Incidently, the UK population is approximately 60 million people.

reply to post by operation mindcrime


Yes, there are shelters that cater to women & children - usually these are women (and some with children) who flee abusive environments. These people come from rich and poor - so taxing me more is not going to help them. Many of these local places do not get much money from the government for support. It is up to voluntary donations and workers to keep them running. This goes for many charities.

Who do I not want to help out? Lazy people who dont do a thing to better themselves. Lazy people who choose to live off the government knowing they can get away with being lazy. And I could go on. And these examples are real examples and real problems.

And yes, I choose at MY discretion whom I help. That is how it should be.

And im glad to hear that you volunteer

reply to post by Wotan


But is the EU the final end all and be all to government? I guess what I'm trying to say is that Europe is not a country Europe is a bunch of different countries all under different government then the EU which controls the euro does the money.

The EU does not control all aspects of every government and laws that exist in Europe does it?

If so you guys can keep that system because we already have a huge government bureaucracy that doesn't know what they are doing.

I still don't see what you and mind crime are trying to point out with the EU, because all those countries in Europe are sovereign the last I checked.

As I see it:

Socialism is a necessary step in the evolution of both American and world governments at large. The forces of history compel us toward accepting this evolution. You can either accept it or kick and scream about it, but it will not matter. Either we in the US will move towards a more progressive model, which socialism is, or we will crumble and wilt as a society.

Wotan has made some very good points in this thread about the state of life in the UK and Europe as a whole, and we in the US would do well to follow their example. If our society were to be restructured around similar lines, (which it can be, despite the differences in population and land area) higher taxes would not be a concern, because the overall quality of life would increase, and much of what sucks up our income as Americans would be taken care of by the state. I have no problem whatsoever with paying higher taxes. Even as an American citizen in our broken system, I currently make very little money, but I don't mind in principle paying taxes on it, because I understand that it is supposed to be for the common good. Now if only it actually was...but that's not the point - the point is that I understand the need for taxes in principle.

In a socialist system, tax money would actually go to programs that matter and that work, as we can see in the European examples. Heck, if I could gain the benefits that Wotan enjoys in the UK for 1/3 of my wages, I would consider that a tiny price to pay.

I believe in putting the collective good before material greed and selfishness. I do not cling to money as many Americans do. I would have no problem with a socialist government taking out chunks of my paycheck in taxes to help the greater good, regardless of whether others are "working as hard" as I am or not. The benefits for all should outweigh any individual pettiness or resentment. Socialism is not about jack-booted thugs pointing a gun at your head and taking a $50 out of your wallet to give to a lazy clod sitting home and watching Jerry Springer. It's about collective social responsibility. It is the responsibility of those who have to give to those who have not. Future generations growing up in a socialistic America would not know the difference, and if they did, I'm sure they'd choose it over the current system any day.

So accept the progressive slide into socialistic policies or resist it, but be prepared to go the way of the dodo if you cling to the myth of American economic independence. The world is changing, and the US must change with it or slip into the dust of history.

reply to post by CrowServo


So what about the USA's socialist policies? Like Unemployment, Welfare, Sick Leave, Medicaid, Medicare, Public Housing, Food Stamps, Debit cards for people on welfare so they can buy other things, WIC, etc. I think the only thing the US doesn't have is Universal Health Care.

The point is that it doesn't work in the US. And I can guarantee you that the US is not going to go into even more socialism with out a fight and the progressives will lose.

Government handouts doesn't help better anybody and it doesn't help anybody all it does is make people dependent.

And it will be the other way around, the progressive nations will wither into dust and be left behind the US if the US reverts back to its roots to a more free market and a republic. How do you think America got to be a superpower.

[edit on 18-11-2008 by Hastobemoretolife]

Originally posted by Divinorumus
Then I fail and die. I would prefer to die before ever thinking of involuntarily forcing you to become my slave and personal saviour.

That just sounds horrible. No one should have to fail and die just because he or she is unlucky or unfortunate. Life should be more important than money.

Originally posted by operation mindcrime
reply to post by Divinorumus

 

I feel a lot of anger....

Not yet, but I'm getting there.

remember socialism is not the same as being social

I know that. Being social is voluntary, moral, and the civilized way to do things. Socialism is when a dictator puts a law and a gun to your head and demands you become their slave, and that's not very social, nor moral, nor civilized.

[edit on 18-11-2008 by Divinorumus]

Originally posted by GrayFox
That just sounds horrible. No one should have to fail and die just because he or she is unlucky or unfortunate. Life should be more important than money.

Horrible maybe, but I'd rather die before FORCING anyone to become my slave. It's a moral thing.

reply to post by Hastobemoretolife

I think the reason it "doesn't work" right now is just because of what you said. A key aspect is missing. Everything is too mixed up. The system just isn't working. Add a few blocks and things might work better.

Originally posted by Divinorumus
Horrible maybe, but I'd rather die before FORCING anyone to become my slave. It's a moral thing.

Who would be a slave? I think the misunderstanding here is that some people don't realize that there's more than one type of socialism. People seem to guess or assume that socialism always means the exact same thing that the USSR had... seems like side effects of the Cold War that haven't gone away.

[edit on 18-11-2008 by GrayFox]

reply to post by GrayFox


You mean give more power to the federal government? No I don't think so. I say we need reform, like major reform, I don't disagree with some things like disability and things of that nature, but it really ticks me off when I'm in the grocery store and the people in front of me pay for their food with food stamps while they are wearing brand new Nikes and designer clothes and they walk outside and get into their new Cadillac.

The poor people in this country have it way better than a lot of people in the world. What I think is that people just need to get off their high horse and realize that they don't have it as bad as other people and the only thing stopping them from having it better is by working.

In fact I just looked at the EU stats of unemployment and GDP and as of May of this year they had -0.9 GDP and their unemployment rate was 6.8%. en.wikipedia.org...

I'm sorry but the US government doesn't even know how to spend our tax money that they get now and people need to learn how to get money on their own. Not everybody is greedy lots of people give money to charities it isn't as bad as what people make it out to be.

reply to post by Hastobemoretolife


America's social programs (while not exactly what I would call "socialist") were good ideas in principle. The problem is they don't go far enough. You can't mix and match socialist and capitalist ideas to such an extent and expect things to work out. We just need more sweeping overhauls of these programs and our society as a whole must become open to that in order for this to succeed. The problem is that America is a bit, well, slow. Too slow to change, to evolve. Too conservative, and even too moderate in certain situations.

If the progressive alternative fails, it is simply because it is hampered by the conservative status quo. We do not give progressivism (a term which I choose for the moment - the ideas behind it are also called liberalism, leftism, socialism, etc.) enough of a chance in this country. Under Obama, hopefully that will change.

Progressive ideas (however they have been termed over the centuries, in different societies in different time periods) are concerned with equality and harmony. They are focused on the future. We progress towards a more egalitarian, peaceful world, despite setbacks, which historically come from conservative ideas. History is my field, and time and again I have seen examples of conservative ideas dominate...and I have seen how they ultimately fail. The seeds of progressive ideas have seldom found soil in which to take root, not because they are bad ideas, but because the aggressive conservative/traditionalist/materially-focused soil pollutes and dominates. That is how I see it.

The working men and women of America are not looking for a handout. They are looking for economic equality and a better standard of living. As long as we need governments, we need what they provide. And they have a responsibility to provide for the common social good. This means all of the things that contribute toward a healthy life - health care, food, shelter, clothing, leisure time, infrastructure. As long as we use money, this costs money that must come from the citizens. Under a harmonious socialist system, a few people might choose to be "lazy" but this will not damage the whole. The benefits would outweigh any imagined drawbacks.

A free market inevitably leads to economic inequality, and to the eventual end result of one corporation controlling everything anyway, completely ending the "healthy competition" that capitalism is supposed to inspire. We are seeing the results of unregulated capitalism now, and the situation has gotten so bad because the "free market" is never free, and it is infinitely exploitable. It is like a game - those with economic power, the Wall Street tycoons, wrote their own cheat codes. Capitalism simply does not work in the end. So we will inevitably move towards socialism assuming we have no severe stumbling blocks along the way.

Oh scandinavian socialism is good? Well I worked with a DP operator on a ship and he hated the taxes he was paying. Guess what He also hated the useless eaters taking all his tax money as I do. How bout this idea mister socialist have the market fix our problems. Yeah You wouldn't know about that because You like big government.. Here is a little education which You need since You are mentaly lazy. The ratio of doctors to patients is 900-1 in this stinking country and why is that. I wonder if it had anything to do with the government shutting down like 80% of its medical schools just to satisfy the insurance companies. The best thing to do is open up a butt load of schools and then give out scholarships and break up the medical board monopoly. More doctors increases competition and then doctors actually give a damn about their patients instead of being over worked.. Impose a quota on lawyers and lower there ammounts and then reign in the insurance companies because they are the real culprits. Oh tired of paying buku bucks for drugs well little do You know every nation but us has price controls which means we pay the difference ... So put tariffs on the countries with price controls and wala we will pay the same as canada. So please do some research and realize the real problems we have today is big government and more government is not going to fix the problem. Oh btw We do have socialized medicine and its called the VA so go talk to some veterans and ask them how their plan is doing.

reply to post by CrowServo


I'm going to have to disagree with you. First you have to differentiate on what type of conservatism your talking about. When you are talking about American conservatism your talking about freedom and the roots of which the country was founded upon.

I can tell you that in recent history the reason why we are in this economic mess is because of a progressive policy called the Community Reinvestment Act that forced the banks to come up with ARM's so they could make money and stay in business.

Your right though there has never really been a true free market. If you studied history then you should also know that in the 1870's the American Government granted rights to corporations. So corporations have legal rights like a person.

So regulations are also considered laws in this aspect. More regulation costs the corporations more money which that cost just gets passed on to the consumer. Market regulation is a progressive policy and as you can see that has gotten us into a real big mess.

Also the American income tax system is progressive but yet people complain about that as is, because of loopholes and all this and all that.

Adam Smith the guy that wrote the book on the Free Markets stated that Free Markets and Capitalism would fail if the government got involved. Well our government has been involved for a long time now.

I can name countless problems with progressive policies. Those countries are having a hard time adapting to a global economy. The truth is that we are all human and that is where the equality stops.

There are facts of life and the fact is that not everybody is going to be rich and successful not everybody is going to be poor and in the gutter. Then you run into the problem that once people learn they don't have to do anything to live like everybody else they start complaining and wanting more and more.

The point is that capitalism is the best economic system for adapting and being flexible to emerging technologies and business models. Progressive policies will end up being a failure.

Marxism sounds good on paper and is filled with good intentions, but when you throw the human element in then it all goes to heck.

If the laws weren't patterned to help businesses then lots of corporations would have went the way of the dinosaur, but market regulation and a corrupt government is to blame for our mess not the failure of capitalism.

Also many countries in Europe are also in a recession. Hopes and dreams of everybody being equal and everything is exactly that hopes and dreams and won't ever happen. Mainly because you have a 10's of millions of people like me that are staunch capitalist and realize that a corrupt government and progressive policies are to blame.

When everybody is equal there fails to be an individual and as human beings we are individuals first and a group second.

reply to post by Hastobemoretolife


A couple things I have noticed in reading through several pages of this topic. Nobody that i read talked about What America's founding principles are based on? the founders leaned as hard as we could to NOT have a centralized powerful govt. You all know the reasons why. We went so far that we had to correct it with a new constitution only a few years later. I know the constitution has been shredded in many ways, and it disregarded minorities for a long time, a lot of that has been fixed DUE TO THE CONSTITUTION.
Govt. authorities were limited to securing the nations safety and making laws and money. The theory that worked so well for so long still works. Let the free market take place. In that lies the government's responsibility to protect our safety by inspecting imports, regulating the borders, etc.

a few pages back i read this about Holland's educational system.

"Then that child must choose between being a garbage collector or working in a grocery store for the rest of his/her life. This lower-educated child never has a chance to recapture getting farther ahead because he or she has been put in a box, labeled a low-educated child with no opportunity to try and move further."

class structure?
Another founding principle... the right to Opportunity. NOT RESULTS
obviously some people have greater opportunities, but you cannot honestly say that America doesnt offer ways to move up in class stucture. President Obama?

We have been going down the socialism road so long we cant recognize that we are socialistic. Health care next? How about this. We actually make health care providers compete for the business instead of handing out money through set payments through insurance companies. What are the best hospitals? Private, best schools? private. Competition works with proper oversite.

The government does nothing as efficiently as a truly free market economy. Including creating jobs.

a point about socialism that I believe is why would people push themselves to become a scientist or doctor when you can cut lawns and have a similar lifestyle? Some people will, but not enough.
What economy is booming? We have only been discussing Europe and America. Look up Dubai. i know they have oil money but America had money too.
""""
III. Open And Free Economic System: Dubai’s economy has been kept open and free to attract investors and business. Government control and regulation of private sector activities has been kept to a minimum. There are no direct taxes on corporate profits or personal income (except for oil companies that pay a flat rate of 55% and branches of foreign banks that pay a flat rate of 20% on net profit generated within Dubai).""""""
www.mapsofworld.com...

Take care.
KD