I want socialism.

Here's a few questions I'd appreciate someone try to answer:

Why not make socialism voluntary?

Let those that love socialism and need it subscribe to and play that game among themselves. If socialism is so grand and great, can't ya'll that want to play that, play that among yourselvesand make it work fer ya'll?

Isn't it immoral to force your desires and beliefs upon others? Insisting everyone subscribe to your socialist ideals and beliefs isn't any different than those fanatics that insist you subscribe to their religious beliefs or be beheaded or spend eternity in hell.

Forcing others to subscribe to your beliefs is WRONG. Immorally WRONG!

This is from a friend of mine who lives in the Netherlands but also lived in the USA before.

I think there should be a balance mixed-blend of Capitalism with Social programs, such as affordable housing for low-income, affordable healthcare for everyone, affordable healthy food for everyone, affordable quality education for everyone.

I think the Socialism that I see in the Netherlands is unfair and unbalanced. The system in Holland rewards people who do not want to work - but who are capable of working, i.e. if you don't want to work, you can stay home and collect money from the government.

On the otherhand, I like the affordable healthcare program here.
I like the affordable quality food for everyone here.

I do not like the education system in Holland because they put children into boxes at age twelve, i.e. if your child does not do well in school for whatever reason, then he or she is assigned to a lower education high school. Then that child must choose between being a garbage collector or working in a grocery store for the rest of his/her life. This lower-educated child never has a chance to recapture getting farther ahead because he or she has been put in a box, labeled a low-educated child with no opportunity to try and move further.

The high schools here are divided up in Holland -

Higher-education for the 'smart, good-grade' kids
Middle-education for the average kids
Lower-education for the kids who did not pass their tests in elementary school

I have lived on both sides of the pond now. I can tell you I like the American system better albeit there are some flaws, i.e. healthcare and poverty. But America is the ONLY place in the world where you have opportunity - no matter where you come from rich or poor.

Again, there has to be some middle-ground (I am not as liberal as you may think).

Let's keep the American dream alive and rolling - but let's take care of our own people first before we run out and try to save the rest of the world.

I think we (USA) need to cover the basics for everyone: housing, healthcare, food and education. These are basic rights for all human beings, yes?

But we need to focus on taking care of ourselves (USA), taking care of our own country FIRST, taking care of our own people FIRST - and stop spending what little money we have on everyone else outside of the USA!

I also think we need to get rid of NAFTA because looks where it has taken us (into a hole). All of our jobs in the USA are being shipped overseas to Mexico and India.

We also need to stop importing from countries like China and start producing and manufacturing products in the USA for our own people to purchase and use.

Here we go yet again ....... The typical American ATS user who has NO IDEA about Europe and its Socialist Policies or how they work.

You all seem to think that we are slaves in Europe, how wrong you all are.

I live in the UK. Here are my benefits in a country with socialist policies:-

I pay approximately 1/3 of my wages in taxes and social security.
I get FREE Health care for life.
I get unemployment benefit, should I become unemployed.
My family has access to all levels of Education.
I have a good standard of living.
I enjoy 7 weeks 1 day per year paid Annual Leave. I have at least one foreign holiday per year, sometimes two. This includes Bank Holidays.
I get paid sick leave whilst sick (full pay for six months, then half pay for six months) - This is paid by my employer, who then gets it paid back from the Government.
I work a 37.5 hour week which is standard in the UK.
I get a 15 minute tea break in the morning and 30 min lunch break.
I get susbsidised meals in the works restaurant.
If on medication, I would pay £7.10 per prescription. This is dependant on diagnosis/condition as some prescriptions are actually FREE.

This is just a few of the things that I benefit from in a COMMUNIST, I mean socialistic country ........ Not too bad eh!

reply to post by Camilo1


Socialism does'nt work in Cuba because the U.S. and Cuban lobbyists
keep trade away from Cuba so that the Cuban mafia(that own the lobbyists) that used to run Cuba before Castro took over can regain it when he goes down.
if you look into history ,you'll find that life for the poor in Cuba was no picnic before Castro.
Remember,China is communist, but you can't buy anything in the U.S.
that's not made there, yet the U.S. purposely keeps the Cuban people starved because of senseless policy. i bet you could practice Falun Gong (like Tai Chi)
in Cuba without being taken away and tortured. You can't in China.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Before we even start with this...I have reason to suspect that you, and most other people, cant discern between:

liberal
social democratic
socialist
communist

Am I wrong?

No you're absolutly right. In the Netherlands we tend to be liberalist but also socialist but still most of all we are a democracy....

( sounds funny?? Well in essence most of us (in the Netherlands) are liberal ,freedom above everything but the one thing we share with socialism is that we feel everybody should be able to enjoy that freedom and have n equal amount of it. And we are all willing to pitch in to make that happen).



Being a socialist is not the same as being social.......


[edit on 18/11/2008 by operation mindcrime]

Edit : sorry Skyfloating, should have mentioned that this was your quote....

[edit on 18/11/2008 by operation mindcrime]

I would bet, that I in the UK actually pay less tax on a pound for pound (dollar for dollar) equivalent than most average Americans do.

Add up what you pay in taxes and insurances to get the same benefits we get as standard in the UK. I bet you pay more.

reply to post by Wotan


Thanks for the selling points. However, all that for 1/3rd of my income is NOT worth it.

So again I beg, why not make these socialist ideals voluntary. Let me and any others say NO THANKS! Isn't it wrong to force anyone to involuntarily subscribe to your beliefs?

I would agree with Operation Mindcrime. I know quite a few Dutch people and they are the most liberal minded people in Europe.

Too many on this forum do NOT understand Socialism or what social policies are. The whole of the EU is socialist in some form or another, but we are still a Democracy. We have elections and we do 'kick-out' our leaders. Our Governments even change to differing political ideologies, but regardless of whether the political power in control is Conservative, Labour, Liberal, Green or Social Democrat, they ALL implement and sustain socialist policies - ie; The Welfare State.

Originally posted by Divinorumus
reply to post by Wotan

 

Thanks for the selling points. However, all that for 1/3rd of my income is NOT worth it.

So again I beg, why not make these socialist ideals voluntary. Let me and any others say NO THANKS! Isn't it wrong to force anyone to involuntarily subscribe to your beliefs?

These are not beliefs. These are National Policies and have been since the end of WW2.

Tell me, How is it that America is the ONLY nation in the western world that has the system that it uses whereas ALL the the others in the western world persue socialist policies? Which system is right?

Originally posted by Divinorumus
reply to post by Wotan

 

Thanks for the selling points. However, all that for 1/3rd of my income is NOT worth it.

So again I beg, why not make these socialist ideals voluntary. Let me and any others say NO THANKS! Isn't it wrong to force anyone to involuntarily subscribe to your beliefs?

The whole idea is that EVERBODY delivers his share....!!!

And as for the 1/3rd of your income...are we talking freedom or economics here or are they perhaps the same with you.....

I think the meaning of Socialism gets lost in the translation when it goes across the pond.

reply to post by SailorinAZ



Hey sailor ,nice post but.........

Just one tiny question.....(with you living on both sides of the pond) how many people have you seen living and dying on the street here in Holland and in Amerika......

(and don't say you live in Amsterdam and see a lot of homeless people, i'm not talking about the ones who are homeless out of free will.)

Being from Canada, it sounds pretty strange that anyone would like to live in a place with no safety nets, ie. socialized health care. I imagine that it is the minority that would rather die than accept free medical care. And really, socialized health care in Canada costs less per capita than what the typical American has to pay for private health insurance. You get rid of having to fun all of the greedy insurance companies with employees who get the bonuses when rejecting your claims to save their company money.

The U.S. has many socialist policies as well so it is wrong to call it a capitalist country and other countries like Canada or the European countries socialist. They are all a mix with the U.S. just having fewer social programs. Also note that most of the U.S. socialist programs are geared to protect the wealth in the form of gov't bailouts for the financial companies!

And having a few socialist policies does not make people lazy. It's not like everyone makes the same amount of money. The ambitious are the ones who still make the money. It's no fun being unemployed, living in a crappy place, only making enough on welfare to buy food. The government only gives you enough to survive if you're unemployed and as far as I'm concerned that's one of the basic rights for anyone. No one on the planet should be starving to death. It sounds like some people here think that's good, that people should starve to death and be denied health care if they don't have money. I don't see it and I wouldn't want to live in a country that supported those beliefs. The coutnry as a whole becomes poor. Crime rates go up. Slums expand. Everyone is affected, including those with money.

Originally posted by jam321
It is right around the corner.

Socialism isn't a bad thing. It just isn't something I want or want to see. I believe it makes people less productive in life. Why work hard if you are still going to get an equal share? Why study? Would you still have rich people in a socialist society? I also don't like the way it makes the people dependent upon the government rather than the other way around.

I'm not saying all but, a lot of people have high up jobs that pay really good money, and they don't do half the work that some people making minimum wage do.

I saw a interesting show on t.v. the other day. It was called 30 days. Its that guy who made supersize me. Anyways, he and his girlfriend got work from an unemployment office, to see if they could survive one month living pay check to pay check. The couldn't do it. And the crazy part about it is, thats how many americans live.

In any society whether it is an extreme right wing one or an extreme left wing one, there will always be the haves and the have-nots.

Countries that persue socialist policies know this. It is not just about Healthcare or Education but also of providing cheap housing, sanitation, providing clean drinking water, cheap food etc etc.

It is every persons' on this planets' right to have access to water, food, shelter. It is the DUTY of the Government to provide the above to its own population ..... at least in first/second world civilised societies.

Some Socialist policies are provided as ''safety-nets'' for the unfortunate ones in our society. No job is safe, no-one is indespensible and misfortune can strike at any time. Even the rich can fall on to hard times. You only have to look at the present financial crisis to see that even the ''average joe'' is affected by misfortune - Is is it his fault, that his firm has laid him off? Is it his fault that he can no longer pay his medical insurance? Is it his fault that he is now behind on his rent/mortgage and may possibly lose his house? Is it his fault that he and his family could be destitute? THAT is why socialist policies are introduced into civilised societies.

Originally posted by SailorinAZ
I think there should be a balance mixed-blend of Capitalism with Social programs, such as affordable housing for low-income, affordable healthcare for everyone, affordable healthy food for everyone, affordable quality education for everyone.

You mean...like we have in Europe

Originally posted by SailorinAZ
I think the Socialism that I see in the Netherlands is unfair and unbalanced. The system in Holland rewards people who do not want to work - but who are capable of working, i.e. if you don't want to work, you can stay home and collect money from the government.

With you doing the judging of who does not want to work and who can not work. Say for instance you lost you wife and children in a carcrash and 'cause of that emotional shock you are not able to work for some time.

Originally posted by SailorinAZ
On the otherhand, I like the affordable healthcare program here.
I like the affordable quality food for everyone here..

Next to housing i would say you covered the three basic needs every human has a right to. These are exactly the things you DON'T GET in Amerika

Originally posted by SailorinAZ
I do not like the education system in Holland because they put children into boxes at age twelve, i.e. if your child does not do well in school for whatever reason, then he or she is assigned to a lower education high school. Then that child must choose between being a garbage collector or working in a grocery store for the rest of his/her life. This lower-educated child never has a chance to recapture getting farther ahead because he or she has been put in a box, labeled a low-educated child with no opportunity to try and move further.

The high schools here are divided up in Holland -

Higher-education for the 'smart, good-grade' kids
Middle-education for the average kids
Lower-education for the kids who did not pass their tests in elementary school

I cannot judge on your school system 'cause i don't know anything about it but if i had to guess...every kid in amerika get the same education till the age of 16? /18? and then gets to choose a college to go to. No high drop out rates or anything????
With our system atleast the kids with lower mental capabilities get an opportunity to learn a trade before they get a change to drop out.

Originally posted by SailorinAZ
I have lived on both sides of the pond now. I can tell you I like the American system better albeit there are some flaws, i.e. healthcare and poverty. But America is the ONLY place in the world where you have opportunity - no matter where you come from rich or poor

Are you serious?? So it doesn't matter in Amerika if your daddy is john d. rockefeller or john nobybody living in a trailerpark....you will have equal opportunities......you believe this????

Originally posted by SailorinAZ
Again, there has to be some middle-ground (I am not as liberal as you may think).

Let's keep the American dream alive and rolling - but let's take care of our own people first before we run out and try to save the rest of the world

Nobody is asking to be saved ,if you haven't noticed.
The american dream...you know why they call it that, huh? 'cause you have to be asleep to believe it (stole that one from Carlin(rip))

Originally posted by SailorinAZ
I think we (USA) need to cover the basics for everyone: housing, healthcare, food and education. These are basic rights for all human beings, yes?.

What were again the basics here in the Netherlands for all it's inhabitants..??

Originally posted by SailorinAZ
But we need to focus on taking care of ourselves (USA), taking care of our own country FIRST, taking care of our own people FIRST - and stop spending what little money we have on everyone else outside of the USA!

You mean spend billions on war and bailing out fat bankers.....

edit: it was a long one and i made few mistakes....

[edit on 18/11/2008 by operation mindcrime]

edit : and some more....

[edit on 18/11/2008 by operation mindcrime]

Originally posted by operation mindcrime
The whole idea is that EVERBODY delivers his share....!!!

Huh? I thought socialism is some deliver more than their share, and others receive it. ?

Again though, I would like to know, why not make socialism optional. Not everyone needs or wants it.

Some do prefer to be left alone unto their own. Some feel it's immoral to involuntarily force or even expect another to feed and care for them. How would those that have a moral issue with involuntary socialism escape what they feel would be a sin? I mean, I don't want to take food from your mouth or the mouths of your children to put into mine by involuntary policies and force.

And, does involuntary charity (socialism), as opposed to voluntary charity (social responsibly), make us civilized? Or caged and enslaved?

Socialism should be individually voluntary! Many just do not want or need it for many ethical and moral reasons. Forcing anyone to contribute their labor involuntarily is enslavement and NOT civilized behavior.

Originally posted by Frankidealist35
I want socialism.

Then move to France.

What's so bad about socialism?

Slavery to the state.
No independence - which is what America is all about.



[edit on 11/18/2008 by FlyersFan]

I don't think most americans know what it would be like to live in a pure capitalist society. Friendman's trained Chicago boys have implemented pure capitalist polices in a few countries over the years. Without exception they have turned into huge humanitarian disasters although a few people got rich. Read "Shock Doctrine" by Naomi Klein. It gives you pretty good insight into what U.S. foreign policy objectives are and those of the IMF and World Bank:
The Shock Doctrine

reply to post by Wotan


Damn, I spent 21 years in the military and am rated 60% disabled and even my health care is not free and to make it worse I have to use the base.
Any college my family wants is not free.
My standard of living is ok
I get 2 weeks paid vacation per year and have been with my company for three years.
I get no holidays off and only get paid for the holiday if I work that day.
I get no sick days. If I am sick and can not work I do not get paid.
I work a minimum of 42 hours per week.
I get no breaks, no lunches, nothing. I eat at my desk when I can. I run to the restroom when I get a chance and must carry a radio with me.
I pay for all my meals.
My prescriptions are free as long as I get them on base.
Also, I have no dental coverage.

[edit on 18-11-2008 by SailorinAZ]