I want socialism.

You want socialism? You're in luck! We just bought a whole country, the USA, and we can sell it to you real cheap! It'll only cost you your rights and freedoms, oh, and your paycheck too. One socialist nation, comin' right up!

You want fries with that?

You won't even have to write a letter to Santa, 'cause it's already been decided you WILL have a socialist nation for Christmas next year!

[edit on 20-11-2008 by OuttaHere]

yeah don't worry dude you will get if these people pulling the strings continue to get their way.

Can I just point out what so many seem to forget?

Norway, Sweden, whatever other country you want to prop up, as an example is NOT:

300 Million plus

A socialistic system cannot support 300 million people.
Simply can't.

Also, and I think much more importantly Norway and Sweden are NOT socialist countries! Norway is a constitutional monarchy with a parliamentary system of government as is similarly Sweden

NOT SOCIALIST!

So stop using them as an example.
There is CAPITALISM in both countries. They are SMALL and being SMALLER can be more efficient in what they do. They are not perfect models either and they do not generally have an issue with immigration of individuals who at the outset are not already a working part of the system. They are different than America in many ways and a copy/paste of their system (or a real socialist system) would NOT work here.


Get your facts straight on socialism people..

From Wiki:

Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and the creation of an egalitarian society.

This means state owned business, no individualized profit. No one is richer than any other. That means my friends, that you can't have an Xbox if your buddy down the street can't have one and if the government can't afford to make 300 million Xboxes as a country then you can be damn sure you ain’t getting one.

Now apply that to anything YOU have that someone else doesn't.. a warm coat, new pair of gloves, a shiny new BMW? How about your home? How would you get a nice home if the other guy doesn't get one? How about that Twinkie you had for lunch? NOPE, it isn't efficient to make them, they costs too much and drain the resources out of the health care department so no Twinkies for you.. in fact NO SWEETS at all, as it could ruin your health and cost your comrades money we need to make more babies.

Loss of choice, loss of freedom, lost of just about every reason to live.
Yea.. socialism, so much better.

reply to post by HIFIGUY

It appears your opinion is not in agreement with the current action being taken and trends.

That certainly seems to be true. Remember that Obama won with 52% of the vote, versus 47%. Most of Obama's vote came from the youth vote, from which he received 69%. The youth of the US has never experienced a MAJOR war (Iraq is a skirmish, compared to WWII), or suffered mass starvation and high unemployment. They are, for the most part, a spoiled generation, that is used to getting whatever they want. They voted for a man who has never held a real job, never spelled out his plans in detail, was a good talker, but was as ignorant, if not more so, than Bush. All he said was that he wanted change. Numerous "on the street" interviews showed that Obama supporters could not name one bill that he helped pass, or one specific program that he proposed. All they could say is "he wants change".
Well, let's look at the "change". He is currently picking all the political hacks that were in the Clinton Administration, with a few Carter people thrown in. He said he was against war, but already he is talking about putting MORE troops into Afghanistan, and invading Pakistan. He is clueless on the economy, as much as McCain was, but he was shrewd enough not to say so.
Since his election, the stock market has continued to fall, indicating lack of confidence by the business community, people are staying home and not spending, companies are laying off, in anticipation of higher taxes, and more moves against business, and we are beginning a world-wide depression.
The youth who voted for him, for the most part, have never had to face consequences for their actions, but that is about to change. They have helped elect a President that will make all the same mistakes that FDR did, in attempting to reverse this second great depression. True economists understand that FDR's alphabet soup, EXTENDED the depression, because it attempted to thwart the natural fallout of a free capitalistic economic system, that is letting failing companies FAIL. FDR started socialism, and allowed the lazy of this country to continue to be lazy, because they knew the government would be there with handouts. That doesn't mean I believe that people who are truly in need should not get help. However, in America, there are generations of people who are still on welfare. If socialism were so great, why aren't those people working?
Earlier, someone posted the demographics of Europe versus America, and stated that the decreasing birth rate in Europe worked in their favor, as far as administration of social programs, while the US increasing rate hurts the US social programs. IT IS JUST THE OPPOSITE. When populations go down, the remaining workers cannot contribute enough in taxes to PAY for the social programs of the retired. The reason that the US social security system is in financial straights is that the population INCREASE is not enough to support the Ponzi Scheme of Social Security.
There have been very few posts on this thread that have looked at the real economics behind socialism versus capitalism. Since Europe has only been experimenting with Socialism for a short time, the time frame is not sufficiently long to be able to see its collapse yet. However, like other failed systems, time will change that.
In addition, America was FOUNDED to escape the foolishness of England, its monarchy, and its "EMPIRE". We are not about to allow the US to become part of the "empire".
For those that don't like a free country, which is not afraid of Russia, or Iran, or other despotic countries, I suggest that they should consider moving to Europe, and leave the US for those who still value freedom, democracy, and despise Socialism, and yes, despite what several posters have indicated, Socialism and Communism are just two different words for the same failed system.

Socialism (or monarchy really, as someone pointed out a few posts above) is good. I live in Scandinavia and while its difficult to get extremely rich, its also very difficult to be extremely poor since you have all kinds of welfare systems. We do have pretty large income differences, but not super sized like in the US.

We have free university studies so anybody who wants (and puts in the work) can be what they want to be. I will never be super rich like some Americans, but Im very happy anyway. I have far more than I need to get by and thats enough for me.

I think the Swedish system is pretty good. It doesnt encourage people to step all over eachother like in the US. Its not that competitive and people dont live to work. The corporations also dont have the same power. You cant just fire someone for nothing and we have unions that work.

And so on. It just works.


[edit on 20-11-2008 by Copernicus]

For those who think government intervention is bad... Fine, but you have to do away with all of these things too then:

*Tariffs - More American jobs down the toilet

*Price Floors

*Price Ceilings

*Subsidizing - Farms and airliners going down the tubes

*SEC - No one to hold agencies to ethical accounting standards

*FCC - No one to regulate what's on TV

*Monopolies - Bring back the Telco and Microsoft monopolies

*Oligarchies - Cartels become legal again

*Insider trading - No problem there. Government shouldn't interfere with business.


Need more? Government already controls and regulates business to a good extent, and we all reap the benefits of such. But you never hear about how those agencies help keep business in line. No, all you hear is that government intervention ruins business.

I disagree. If governments didn't intervene, Capitalism would destroy us all.

*Edit to add:

I make this point because these are all socialist like programs. That also includes Welfare, Medicaid, and Social Security.

Many of you claim to hate socialism and say it will ruin this country, while unknowingly are reaping the benefits of some of it's tenets.

[edit on 20-11-2008 by Irish M1ck]

pffffff........

once more...




pretty small picture...enlage to read the text.....


Edit : had to remove some text because of wrong picture but this will explain al lot aswell

[edit on 20/11/2008 by operation mindcrime]

Originally posted by operation mindcrime
reply to post by switching yard

 

Everything fine and dandy here in the Netherlands. Not much to complain...economy could be better but the economical growth is still +1,5% so no resession here. Still looking for +100.000 jobs to be filled and no banks gone head under....

Yeah...i guess having a socialist goverment really s**ks.

Oh noes! a Socialist has posted!

-runs around with arms waving in the air-

Seriously I don't fear Socialism, I'm just tired of the same old same old ignorance here in the States. During the campaign that word was thrown around by the losing side as something to -fear-. To bad for the fearmongers I guess/

reply to post by switching yard


Norway is a little unique due to it's oil wealth. It's a very small country with very large oil reserves. Its oil companies are state owned and provide the financial resources that make their lifestyle possible. You can't translate their model into something that works for a country the size of the US.

Originally posted by Divinorumus
Do you see how similar socialists are to the fanatical religious extremists? Say, can I insist what you should believe in and subscribe to instead?

What will come, will be for the willing. The unwilling will be left to themselves.

The willing desire to help all of the willing, and the unwilling.

The unwilling, desire to help only themselves.

Peace

last i heard, americans pay taxes under the threat of imprisonment... the government takes those taxes and redistributes them at will to organizations and initatives that are suppose to help everyone, rather than the few... sounds like socialism to me (by many of the definitions I've read tossed around here)...

the notion that people pay into a system that takes care of the most vunerable in our society is what makes us civilized... wild animals fight for scraps in the forest because if they don't they die... personally i'd be ashamed to live in a country that has so much yet lets so many suffer.... the problem with capitalism in its unregulated form? greed.... i'm not sure when people started thinking it was cool to have so much more than anyone else... sounds like "small penis syndrome" to me...

to imagine socialist policies make for a lazy citizenry is ludicrious... some of the most powerful economies of the world have socialist leanings (as has been pointed out in previous threads)... knowing you are taken care of in times of strife, lead to more productive healthier communities that are happier and less aggressive... countries that do little to help when someone is down, and more so, imply that its "communist=bad" to do so, are countries that bully and invade other countries taking whatever they want... these countries and by proxy their citizens are loathed around the world... sad really

i'd suggest that many of the points here about "freedom to choose" and "socialism=bad" are from the minds of those who have rarely ventured beyond their borders... it takes looking at the big picture before any plot evolves...

imho

reply to post by Wotan


If socialist policies are designed as safety nets for bad times and not for people to give up work and live off of the state, then I'm afraid I have to classify Sweden, a country where I've spend 35 years of my life, as communist rather than socialist. Fortunately the current, allegedly right-wing government is working hard on rectifying this but not without a great amount of complaints and resistance from trade unions, people used to living off benefits (as working has not been beneficial enough) as well as the opposition, e.g. the former "socialist" government.

ha ha americans going on about socialism and they don't even realise they live in one of the biggest socialist 'societies' in the world. Ever heard of the 'federal reserve' that is a socialist/facist system, when the corporation controls your government and the greedy self serving pigs on capital hill.

Wow, I am truly shocked by this thread. I don't think I have ever seen such a collection ignorant and uneducated posters in one place.

Do yourselves a favour and read a book once in a while rather than snippets from wikipedia

Start with this one Politic al Philosophy. You will not regret it. And you will cease to pollute the net with this 'I know what socialism is' bs. It's making me lose faith in humanity and may cause me to live out the rest of my days in a bunker somewhere.

Take heed! you cannot understand socialism, or any other political philosophy for that matter, without reading at least one book on the matter. A one page explanation on some website will most certainly not deliver you unto enlightenment.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


Right on....

As far as your Social Security statement, yes I 100% agree... its only being sustained, sadly enough by the Immigrants that keep comming into this country.

We are a democracy that has been running for over 200 yrs.

Don't see any Socialist outlasting us.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
What will come, will be for the willing. The unwilling will be left to themselves.

The willing desire to help all of the willing, and the unwilling.

The unwilling, desire to help only themselves.

Peace

You got it me all wrong. I think what many object to is involuntary socialism.

One can be voluntarily socially responsible without others forcing mandated involuntary socialism down their throats.

My point is I do not want someone else's ideals, be them political, religious, socialist, communist, capitalist, whatever, FORCED upon me or another. To force another to subscribe to your beliefs and desires is wrong. That's not freedom. Or, if you feel that's okay, can I force my ideals upon you instead? Why do socialists feel they must have things their way and forced upon everyone else? Can I do that to others instead too?

Why can't we pay for socialism on the front end with taxes on non-essentials and luxury purchases, instead of taxing our labor involuntarily? Those that earn more buy more and will pay more as they spend more. You can also collect tax that way on those earning unreported income as they spend it too, unlike today where drug dealers pay no tax.

reply to post by Camilo1


Cuba has (had) something between socialism and communism. But maybe that would be fine if the US had not destroyed the Cuban economy. If the OP is talking about European style socialism (or even Canadian-style) I see it as a big improvement over the US system, which is: every greedy sob for themselves and let the poor starve...as well as no regulation. As for posters yammering about loosing their freedoms, it looks like you've lost more freedoms under Bush than any previous US admin.

reply to post by Frankidealist35

Socialism in theory is a utopia. Socialism in practice, is a dystopia, due to human nature.

It not so much that people DON'T want it, its that they realize human nature makes it impossible.


[edit on 11/20/2008 by prototism]

[edit on 11/20/2008 by prototism]

Originally posted by The_Modulus
Take heed! you cannot understand socialism, or any other political philosophy for that matter, without reading at least one book on the matter.

I don't care what socialism is or isn't. Try to understand this: I'm not interested. No thanks, whatever it is or isn't, I'm not interested. Leave us that aren't interested alone.

Can't you all make socialism work without me? If I jump off a cliff today, is socialism doomed to fail without ME? (sigh, ha)

(now, I slams the door on salesmans face and returns to my own affairs and concerns . . . oh, and I makes note to self: attach "No Solicitors" sign to my door tomorrow)

reply to post by Camilo1


I went to Coba in 1995, spent a month traveling the island, seeing what it was really like. Cuba has free medical care for all citizens. Free. Medical bills are the #1 cause of bankruptcy in the USA. Cuba has free education, through the PHd level, which includes housing and food for students while they study. Free. Every US college grad has tens of thousands of dollars of debt to re-pay as soon as they graduate or drop out of college.

IN CUBA, HOUSING IS SUBSIDISED - THERE ARE NO HOMELESS OR EVICTIONS IN CUBA. Cuban citizens are GUARANTEED a place to live, but are required to pay for it; 5% of their monthly income, If they are unemployed, 5% of nothing is nothing, so they don't have to pay, but they still have a place to live. Oh, and did I mention that electricity, water and sewer are included? In the US, the average percentage of income spent on housing (NOT including power, water, etc) is 25% - 30%. But, in America, you can "own" your own home, right? Try falling behind on your mortgage or not paying taxes, and you'll find yourself "owning your own home" - a tent or a cardboard box.

"Socialism" is simply the government protecting worker's rights and well-being, taking care of the poor before the rich. What we now have in America is government controlled by, and working fo, the rich and the corporations. That's not "capitalism", it's fascism.