Ponderings/questions about Life after death

reply to post by fringe


Hi. Just to say the Christian answer is that there was a first Cause that was always (and will always be) eternally self-existent.

The reason our minds find that a difficult concept is that experience has programmed our minds to expect a beginning and an end.

reply to post by Oscitate


I thought maybe you were referencing lighting up lives?

Before us many candles with fresh wicks, none burned...clean and dormant.

To light them is to consume them and to have them light others is to consume them.

It appears we are as the worlds smartest, unknowing of what creatures swim in our own seas, some never come to the surface, others walk out from the waters. We are extra terrestrial...spirit of the land. We have been here forever and never leave, we turn over here this is home. Reality is your realty...the kingdom of heaven.

Peace

Originally posted by Niobis
reply to post by gimme_some_truth

 

You gave the example of a religious person, an atheist and an agnostic, but only two of the three are correct, which correlates to only one correct answer. Someone is wrong--either the religious person or the atheist. There cannot be life after death for only the religious persons and no life after death for the atheists. We are all made of the same materials. We are all human and we will all "die". The agnostic is also correct because "I don't know" is not giving a right or wrong answer.

Who in the world are you to determine what philosophical answer is right and which is wrong? How can you not see that in philosophy NOBODY knows the answers for sure? DO you not see how your saying that two out of the three answers are correct but there is only one answer does not make sense? I dont know is a great answer by the way, because if you dont know, that is the RIGHT answer. to say you do know when you dont would be the wrong answer. You say that someone has to be right and someone has to be wrong. Not in philosphy. in philisophy there are infinite answers to each question. you are confusing a philosophy discussion with one of religion.

Exactly. But you see, you already know the answer. It was a matter of asking the right question.

Again with that? How many times does every one have to tell you that in philosophy there are an infinite amount of RIGHT questions. And for each individual oneof those RIGHT questions there are an infinite amount of RIGHT answers.

Of course not! I'm human and I'm ignorant just like the rest of my fellow humans.

You say that then you trun around and say that you know the answers and no one else does. Do you see how you contradict yourself?

That doesn't necessarily make them right and me wrong, or vice versa. Just because something feels right does not make it right.

same for you, it doesnt make you right. So what in the world makes you so sure that you are right and everyone else is wrong? Cant you see that you are going in circles with your responses? You are able to say the same thing over and over but you are never able to explain how your answers are right. There is a reason for that you know. That reason being that no one answer is set in stone. Not even yours.

Come down off your high horse buddy, your answers are not any better than anyone elses. To an athiest your answers are wrong and theirs are right. To an agnostic they dont know which is right. To a jewish person you are wrong. To a muslim person you are wrong. That is what I meant that the RIGHT answers vary depending on personal beliefs when it comes to philosophy.

You keep spewing the same material over and over and you dont even seem to be able to give your reasons for your own philosophical beliefs, you instead sit there and say everyone elses philosphical beliefs are wrong. That is why many people in this thread are accusing you of being condescending.

A little tid bit of information that you have yet to catch on to apparently but will help you understand what is going in in this thread, is the fact that this thread is not a thread where I am asking for the exact answer to whether or not there is life after death. This thread is one where I wanted to here everyones personal beliefs ABOUT life after death. There philosophy,if you will, about life after death. That is why you are coming across so negatively. You come across as stating there is only one way it could be, when we are just discussing the philosphy of life after death. And as Im sure you know there are many philosphies about life, death, heaven, hell, etc...

[edit on 19-11-2008 by gimme_some_truth]

reply to post by gimme_some_truth


Aloha, Gimme_Some_Truth.
Well, this is a thread I am interested in replying to, questions which address the qualitative difference between animals and humans. It has been said by great sages (defined as those who dedicate their lives to realization of higher truth) that only in the human form of life can we begin to search out our relationship with God. Otherwise, we have eating, sleeping, mating and defending in common with animal life.

What distinguishes us in the human form is that we ARE ABLE to ask the basic questions "WHO AM I?" and "WHY AM I HERE?" Not that everyone does. We know plenty of the type who basically live for the same basic principles that govern animals. Although in the POTENTIALLY HIGHER human form, they are in practice essentially no different than animals.

Now, we get into "Who or what is God, and does God exist?" A question, again, to which through the ages countless seeking souls have dedicated their lives to answer.
I am going to say that basically, there are two groups of those I have run into who are convinced there is something higher than themself, which some call God, some call The Creator, some call The Oversoul, the White Light, etc., etc., etc. So many names for this larger idea that we are smaller than, and not in control of, actually the other way around. The two groups basically think either that ultimately, there is a personal aspect to God, or that ultimately, the sincere seeker will go beyond all personality to the Void or the Light.

Okay, I am in the God is the Supreme Person group. I want a personal relationship with God. This just makes sense to me. I certainly think of myself as a person and I like being a person and would be fine with continuing to be a person. I do not want to "merge into the Light" forever or like that. To me while it might be fine or restful for a while, and even joyful, it would ultimately end up boring. I think of personal pastimes as enjoyable, and to be in the company of the Supreme Person (or even friends of God) is what I want. I don't want to go into the void. That seems like the soul going on strike to me. Just the truth.

Also, no question in my experience that reincarnation exists. It doesn't matter if you believe in it or not. It is a fact. The reason that we don't all remember all our lives is because we would go crazy. We are here because our souls decided to turn away from service to God (well we are smaller, eternal souls, same in substance but infinitely smaller in size) and wanted to enjoy sense gratification separately in this material form.

The earth is in a corner of the universe which is dedicated to souls like us who turn away, and then anything can happen (because it is all illusory, in the sense of temporary). Here we have miniscule free choice to do what we want. It's not that God does not exist because we choose to do evil, just that there is a corner for those of us who want our freedom to be "Lords" of our own domain. It is a big self-imposed scam, in reality. The joke is on us. Most are pretty covered over in this selfish, amnesiac illusion. Karma (action/reaction) gives everyone a combination of what we deserve and what we desire. Bad stuff and good stuff come around, either this life or another. It is called the wheel of Samsara by the Buddists, they have that right. It's just that getting off the wheel to Buddhists ends in the Void, not my thing.

We put on bodies like clothing, then drop them when they wear out. We create samskaras, impressions, on our subtle mind/bodies that carry over into the between life experience and bring us back to be reborn again. These impressions are reactions to actions, unfulfilled desires, etc. We then get suitable bodies. The idea is to ultimately achieve/regain our original, eternal form in the spiritual world, in our eternal relationship with God.

Hope this helps.

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth

Originally posted by maybereal11

If our bodies are completely recycled after death as are all things by nature, then it seems logical that nature would have a plan for our "souls" as well. Otherwise why waste energy having us evolve spiritually as we age? We grow wiser and nature does not waste anything..it all has a use and purpose...our bodies to the earth and then the fundemental essence of us is used somewhere else unseen.

That is a good thought. It makes me wonder, do we have plans predetermined by someone or something else? Or do we design our own plan? Is the plan that what ever happens,happens?

Wow. Another very big question. I have thought of this often from many angles. The question speaks to "free will". If there is a god and he is all powerful and all good then why does evil exist?

Is he all powerful and created evil as well and thus not all good?
Or does evil exist despite him and thus he is not all powerful?
God sees even the smallest bird fall in peril, yet the bird still falls. etc etc.

The religious pundits would answer that god loves "free will" and that he wants us to have it and thinks the byproduct of evil..or just very sick people...is a cost worth paying to ensure that we have free will.

I fall under the George Michael camp..."God stopped keeping score".
(If he ever was keeping score)

It's not a bad thing, it just means this world is what we make of it.
We determine our own fate and that is how nature/creation/god wants it. To me that context creates an even greater onus to live a good life by our own definition and champion what you think is important in the world.

There is no predetermination outside the rules of physics and if you read enough about physics you will start to understand that even those rules aren't fixed as you would imagine!


[edit on 19-11-2008 by maybereal11]

reply to post by gimme_some_truth
[more

We are the creation of the universe/multi-verses. It wants feedBACK. Otherwise there is no purpose.

I"ll propabably know you in another life!

Peace to all

reply to post by gimme_some_truth


Woah. Stop the bus. You are completely misinterpreting what I'm saying.

Who in the world are you to determine what philosophical answer is right and which is wrong?

When did I say one or the other was right? I didn't! I said one of the three(in your example) is wrong. The religious person and the atheist cannot both be right. One must be wrong.

DO you not see how your saying that two out of the three answers are correct but there is only one answer does not make sense?

Go back and read what I said again. Hint: "which correlates to only one correct answer." The agnostic saying I don't know is not a valid answer when we're talking about being right or wrong.

I dont know is a great answer by the way, because if you dont know, that is the RIGHT answer.

No, it is not the right answer nor is it a wrong one. It's a yes or k(no)w question and saying I don't know is both right and wrong.

You say that someone has to be right and someone has to be wrong. Not in philosphy. in philisophy there are infinite answers to each question...

...How many times does every one have to tell you that in philosophy there are an infinite amount of RIGHT questions.

The question of life after death does not really correlate to philosophy as well as it does to religion. There cannot be an infinite amount of answers to the question, "is there life after death". Again, there can only be one correct answer. Whether the religious person or the atheist is right, someone is going to be wrong, and very disappointed when they "die".

You say that then you trun around and say that you know the answers and no one else does. Do you see how you contradict yourself?

Please, by all means point out to me where I said I know the answers or thought my way is the only way, please!

So what in the world makes you so sure that you are right and everyone else is wrong?

My friend, please read my posts before coming to these obscure conclusions of yours. I'll quote my own words:

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
Certainly you arent suggesting that you know the right answers and no one else does.

Originally posted by Niobis
Of course not! I'm human and I'm ignorant just like the rest of my fellow humans.

To me, that is me saying I'm ignorant. Meaning I don't know jack! I don't see any contradictions.

You are able to say the same thing over and over but you are never able to explain how your answers are right...

...Come down off your high horse buddy, your answers are not any better than anyone elses.

What answers? I have only gave one "answer" in the whole thread, and that was to the original question. I also explained why I thought it was a correct answer. I gave no others.

you dont even seem to be able to give your reasons for your own philosophical beliefs, you instead sit there and say everyone elses philosphical beliefs are wrong.

Another misinterpretation. I have not once said anyone was wrong. Again please show me where I said "that is wrong, this is right."

I think you have become confused because I say you/we are asking the wrong questions when we ask, "is there life or birth after death". I have tried to explain why I think it is an irrelevant question, but you don't seem to understand. I really don't know how else to explain it other than my previous ways.

[edit on 19-11-2008 by Niobis]

reply to post by gimme_some_truth


Look up "dr. brian weiss", he wrote a few books (very interesting) also few videos on line. I also got a few of his CDs which kinda take you through the process of past life regression and well, I think it worked on me, I had some amazing dreams that night. Any who few videos on him as well on Youtube;

www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...

Cheers,

reply to post by gimme_some_truth


I know it's usually a mistake to just reply and not read the whole thread - because I'm sure you've already gone over this part - these 2 things from your OP are things I always have wondered about - a lot

What about death in general. Is death an inevitability? Do we only die because we accept it as an inevitability? If one truly believes that you cannot die, what happens? Do you die? Do you not?

What of existence? If at any point in our lives, one truly believes that they don’t exist, do they cease to exist? or did they never exist in the first place? If you do exist, can you even cease to exist?

along the lines of faith, "The Law of Attraction", and how much of our own reality we bring about - including our after-reality - by belief

I'm not a Christian - and definitely not a Christian scholar - or really even knowledgeable about religion - in general

so, anyone who has an opinion - or actual answer to my question - I'd be very interested

I'm sure it's not a new question - or concept

...that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

from the point of view of an agnostic - it always seemed to me that believing in Jesus was the easy part - that he existed

even that he is the son of God - and that he was resurrected

those things seem easy enough to believe (as far as spirituality, faith and belief go)

so, if I consider that to be the whole thing - salvation is a cinch

but, I always thought - it can't really be just that simple

would it be then - that he never meant to believe in him - but believing in the possibility of him - and all that comes with that belief - is the real point

the key to it all

it's actually necessary to believe in the possibility - in order to continue on - and beyond - into whatever existence might be just beyond this one

allowing for it to be real makes it real

not believing ends the whole cycle right there

I have no idea what I believe when it comes right down to it - only that I'm not willing to rule anything out

so believing in the possibility of continuation would work across the board - for all faiths - if it works at all

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
questions that bring up more questions.

This is a fascinating thread isnt it?

I wonder, is there a deffinant answer to any of these question?

Yes in fact there is, the only problem is that your asking questions that involve so many different religions. All of which are being answered. The only way you will ever, Ever be able to accept those answers is if you truly believe in all religions, which is impossible because they all contradict each other in some way. However, if you asking it on a scientific note, then i believe i already answered all your questions in my first post.

Is there an end to just how many questions there are?

Isnt it obvious that questioning and seeking knowledge is a constant on-going element in humanity? Yes. period. There will always be a question at hand no matter what, and those questions can in some way lead to others. It is impossible for the human mind to gather up all the information in existence and hold it. Besides that, we have new children being born, they begin to ask questions, and then more are born. Thus a circular cycle. an infinite cycle.

Here is a good question, is the pain that humans go through each day evidence of the absense of god? Is our suffering part of the "divine plan"? If so why?

Yet again you are asking this in general. If you want a definite answer you have to specify what religion you are talking about seeing how all religions don't have the same opinion on things. hence the reason for multiple religions.

To answer your question assuming that your implying this to the Christianity faith. No, pain does not equal no god. in fact, in many cases in the bible it is literally telling a person to teach another by beating them (in certain cases). Besides that, a christian will generally have the answer of "it was ment to be because god made it so", meaning that god made us able to feel pain.

Why would our creator want negative things to happen? Or is it that he/she/it doesnt want them to happen but we bring them on ourselves?

and yet again you do not specify what religion, but lets stick with Christianity for now. It is never stated that negative things should happen. Humans are made to be imperfect according to the Christian beliefs, there for the reason why Adam ate the apple and was punished for his wrongful doings. To err is human. other wise we would be gods.

Is god able to stop them from happening but chooses not to, or is god incapable?

and once again you do not specify, but lets keep to tradition and stick with Christianity. A Christian would answer "God is capable of everything, there for it is purposely made for us to learn from our mistakes"

Why do bad things happen to good people?

Its called inevitability. Good and bad aren't a element in this world capable of choice. Good and Bad are opinions based off of a human mind. I personally have had friends murdered in front of me, family commit suicide, or something as simple as failing on a math test. Yes, they are tragic. but you cannot change what has happened. However! you can in fact learn from it. and as sick as this sounds, i wouldn't have it any other way. Why? how is it at all possible to think this way? because i dont think so negatively. because i take every event as a learning possibility. Sure i morn and feel, but why should that stop me from living my life? Taking everything as a possibility to further your own being is beautiful.

The happiest person in the world can still have the worst of all things happen to them and still feel happy. Yet even the most depressive people can have everything that anyone could ever want and still be un-happy. How? because of perspectives and opinion.

Good and bad. Joy and rage. Good guys and bad guys are all based on perspective and opinion.

reply to post by Niobis


ok Niobis, I believe I understand what you have been trying to convey. just curious where you get your "backwards logic" i.e. correct answers have always existed, we are the ones looking for the correct questions. Yes, that is one way of looking at it, which is your perspective.

To say that "I" am not asking the right questions is also a point of perspective, for "I" believe I am asking the right questions, open for all points of view, so that "I" can draw my own answer in relevance to all my understandings. I'm guessing you believe the only way we can come to a form of absolute correctness is if by told by an authority that has every answer to every question, i.e, God.

(if that is the case) then, I only slightly agree with you, because as I type and come to my understandings of this world, I project my own beliefs and answers to the many questions that I have had and will have in the future, that is my philosophy. I think most people would agree, that their technically is only "one" correct answer, but in philosophical questions their is an almost infinite number of perspectives to that answer (which often look like an entirely different answer).

Originally posted by Niobis
reply to post by gimme_some_truth

 

When did I say one or the other was right? I didn't! I said one of the three(in your example) is wrong. The religious person and the atheist cannot both be right. One must be wrong.

When did you say that? well you just said it again in your answer when you said that one must be wrong.

DO you not see how your saying that two out of the three answers are correct but there is only one answer does not make sense?

Go back and read what I said again. Hint: "which correlates to only one correct answer." The agnostic saying I don't know is not a valid answer when we're talking about being right or wrong.

No, it is not the right answer nor is it a wrong one. It's a yes or k(no)w question and saying I don't know is both right and wrong.

Once again you are stuck in the only one answer thing. How many ways can I tell you that the right answer for one is not the right answer for others? The answer to wheter or not life exsists after death is not neccasarily a yes or no question. The answer VARIES FROM PERSON TO PERSON ACCORDING TO THEIR INDIVIDUAL BELIEF"S. Some might say the answer is yes. That answer is correct for them but not for others. Some might say no and that would be correct for them and not for others. Some might say they dont know and that answer is correct for them and not for others. In philosphy there is no one correct answer The correct answer for one is not the correct answer for others! When you stop ignoring that fact you will understand that the answer to life after death exsisiting is not set in stone for any one answer. by the way your admitting that you could answer more than one way "yes or no" just proves that their is not one set answer.

...How many times does every one have to tell you that in philosophy there are an infinite amount of RIGHT questions.[/

Yeah that is what I just said, but thinks for rephrasing it to help yourself understand better. There is an infinite amount of answers to each question and all of them are right. are right. The answer does vary form person to person. once again, you have just proved my point that there are more answers than just yes or no. The right answer DOES change according to each persons individual beleifs. Thanks for helping prove my point. I appreciate.

The question of life after death does not really correlate to philosophy as well as it does to religion. There cannot be an infinite amount of answers to the question, "is there life after death". Again, there can only be one correct answer. Whether the religious person or the atheist is right, someone is going to be wrong, and very disappointed when they "die".

So now you are changing your mind and going back to your old way of thinking? First you say their is only one answer then you admit that there are an infinite amount of answers and each of them right. Now you say there is only one again. Make up your mind. As for your thinking that one is going to be wrong, id like to hear how you know that for sure. Do you have all the answers? Is god telling you how things are? How do you know that if one believes that their is no life after death , that wont be so for them? How do you know that if they believe there is life after death that wont happen for them? How do you know that if a person believes a certain thing, that wont happen to them? YOU DONT KNOW!

Please, by all means point out to me where I said I know the answers or thought my way is the only way, please!

Way to take what I say out of context. I was reffering to how you give that impression. That is why people have been accusing you of being condescending. You come across as if you are saying that you know all the answers and no one else does. I hope that clears up your confusion as far as that goes.

My friend, please read my posts before coming to these obscure conclusions of yours. I'll quote my own words:

Dont you ever accuse me of not reading posts! I take ATS very seriously I read every single post that is addresed to me. I take it very personal that you accuse me of not caring enough to not read my own thread. I request that you not make such ignorant and unfair accusations of me anymore.

Originally posted by Niobis
Of course not! I'm human and I'm ignorant just like the rest of my fellow humans.

saying that you should be able to understand why many people have accused you of writing condescending and arrogant sounding posts.

To me, that is me saying I'm ignorant. Meaning I don't know jack! I don't see any contradictions.

Ive shown one contradiction of yours already in this post. But to clarify again. for just your last post. You go from saying there is only one answer to saying there are infinite answers right back to saying there is only one.

What answers? I have only gave one "answer" in the whole thread, and that was to the original question. I also explained why I thought it was a correct answer. I gave no others.

All I can say to that is see above where you have given several different answers in your last post alone.

Another misinterpretation. I have not once said anyone was wrong. Again please show me where I said "that is wrong, this is right."

oddly enough it is you who is misinterpreting me. As I have told you several times in this post. I am not saying that is what you said. I am saying that is how you come across. Hence the accusations of being condescending.Ive explained that too you mutiple times now in thes post and others. If you cant understand by now, I dont know if you ever can.

I think you have become confused because I say you/we are asking the wrong questions when we ask, "is there life or birth after death". I have tried to explain why I think it is an irrelevant question, but you don't seem to understand. I really don't know how else to explain it other than my previous ways.

Ugh, just see above. No on second thought, let me explain one more thing. You have yet to actually explain. All you have done was rephrase the sentence 'Ask the right questions". You have yet to explain why you feel we are asking the wrong questions or exactly what these RIGHT questions are or how you know what the right question is or how you know them and no one else does.

That is another thing about contradictions, You go back and forth indicating that you some how know the right answers, then you say you are ignorant just like the rest of us. You go back annd forth saying there is only one answer then you say there are infinitea answers. make up your mind

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
reply to post by gimme_some_truth

 

I know it's usually a mistake to just reply and not read the whole thread - because I'm sure you've already gone over this part - these 2 things from your OP are things I always have wondered about - a lot

For the most part that is usally true, but to be honest, I have just been allowing this thread to flow to where ever it goes with little to know direction from me. I think it has gone well so far too, if I dont say so my self.

That said I really like what you wrote. It comes across with such wisdom. Those questions that I have posed seem to mean so much to so many people. Alot of people from so many different backgrounds have pondered similar questions and I find that wonderful.

You raise a great question by the way. Is it just easier to believe in some one seen entity and accept that they created all this and are therefore responsible fore everything that happens? Is that what we have done? Or is there really a creator who just chooses to let us make our own decisions?

Nice addition my friend

[edit on 19-11-2008 by gimme_some_truth]

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
In philosphy there is no one correct answer The correct answer for

reply to
[ by gimme_some_truth]



Ok, before everyone goes completely off Topic into a philosophy of truth debate i will say this.

To put this into a more philosophical example: lets say I make a prediction. My prediction is that the china prime minister will be assassinated in exactly 10 days. now, I have an answer, to a question - will the prime minister be assassinated? before this happens, there is going to be a correct answer. and there is going to be many opinions and arguments that try and refute my prediction or concede it. But regardless of our opinions, or one man/s truth vs. another, there is only one correct answer. Asking about an afterlife is the same scenario, but guess what, when the 10 days are up (figuratively speaking) only the person that dies has the correct answer. As long as I am alive, all I have is just another opinion.



[edit on 19-11-2008 by juveous]