Ponderings/questions about Life after death

Originally posted by Niobis

The only obstacle is understanding and realizing you know the answer.

No, I personally don't think we forgot during the course of this life. Instead we don't realize we know.

We already know because 'God' is all knowing. We are a part of 'God', so therefore, we already know everything we could ever want to know. We as humans think we make discoveries and learn something new, but that is wrong. No one ever learns anything that we didn't already know, they only realized the knowledge that is already there.

Is it really? according to your logic I can't necessarily disagree, because I can make sense of it, but If I come to the realization that I know "the" answer, what is stopping me from sharing it with someone, and when they don't agree, aren't we back to where we started? How does a body of people have a mutual answer to things like Life after death? I just can't agree that there is only one answer for certain things.

Originally posted by Niobis

No, I personally don't think we forgot during the course of this life. Instead we don't realize we know.

I may be completley missing your point. I am trying my best to understand what you are saying. So bare with me while I try to amke sense of what you mean.

Whether you forgot the answer or you dont realize you know the answer, one is unable to say the answer because we dont know the answer. Even if it is buried deep within us somewhere. Forgetting that we know the answer and not realizing that we know the answer is the same thing to me. either way we dont know the answer untill we learn to realize that we have known it all along.

But how can we learn to realize that we knew it all along if we never realized we knew it in the first place? It seems to me that if this is the case we are screwed. We cant answer the question untill we realize that we knew the answer all along. and we cant realize we knew it all along untill we know the answer.

So it seems that what you are suggesting isnt all tha viable, unless I am still misunderstanding you.


[edit on 18-11-2008 by gimme_some_truth]

reply to post by juveous


yeah that is another thing. I dont think the answer is the same for all of us. What feels right in my hear and mind may not be what feels right in your heart and mind. I think there are so many different people who grow up in so many different cultures and environments and societies. Not to mention that every single individual person is different.

So the answers should vary accordingly, shoud they not?

[edit on 18-11-2008 by gimme_some_truth]

reply to post by DocGonzo

ive looked in the mirror and felt the same reaction(s) then i snap out of it

reply to post by schrodingers dog


I like that.

reply to post by Niobis


I find your post highly condescending.

The bottom-line is that God exists is a realization you made. That he is all-knowing is another. You cannot substantiate, except possibly within your own mind. To you, the rest of us are floundering along in the dark, while you urge them to make the same realization.

Your realizations seem to forgo questions, because to you the answers are apparent. The existence of an all-knowing entity, that we are part of, as you say, certainly makes things easier. But it is in my mind, entirely subjective. Unless of course you can show us why these realizations are true.

It is a good point and I was impressed with the observation that truth and knowledge exist independently of thought, which I strongly agree with, albeit for seemingly different reasons. But the insinuation that the rest of us are asking "irrelevant" questions is condescending. To which I would ask you, what is a relevant question?

reply to post by gimme_some_truth


Like all things in life, we look too hard into everything. The truth is your born (you dont remember it) and you die (you won't remember it) and you simply live on in the memories of all the people you touched during you lifetime. They carry your actions and sayings on to the people they touch and so on.

Some good posts in here.

I have had some very deep thoughts (some fruitful, others dangerous) on this very subject. In fact it's a subject that I think about every other night or so as I drift off to sleep.

I have never been one to meditate, and I never really try (or have the time in daily life to try). However when I am lying in bed, thinking, I just can't describe it. I focus my thoughts on what it would like to "not be living." What it would FEEL like, LOOK like, etc. Not from the outside, not as a spirit, just to NOT BE ALIVE.

It's the strangest thing. All sorts of thoughts flow through my head. It's like my brain is rebooted and cleared of all the crap that happened during the day. I have come up with some of my best writing, music, theories, etc. while in this state.

At the end of the day I've decided that it's pointless to really spend too much effort on the answer to the question "what happens we die." I have pretty much taken up the view of a scientist, that we decompose back into the earth and that's about it.

It is this idea that drives my directives in life. While I am not reckless by any means I now take far more risks than I would have before I started thinking like this.

I wonder two things: 1) has anyone else truly meditated on the thought of what it's like to not be alive? what was the outcome? and 2) if religion was really just created by humans to "rock ourselves to sleep" would the world be BETTER off or WORSE if we were to pull the wool away from our own eyes? My views on this whole subject are very deep and very hard for me to verbalize, so my apologies if this post came off as sounding wierd or self-important.

Originally posted by slymattb
As I am a full blown Christian. My belief are based on the bible. I do believe in life after death.

But as for reincarnation. Let think about it. Has anyone every thought how does reincarnation work.

Lets think about it. Person dies and is reborn as a new being or animal.

heres the thinking part. Person dies and soul goes becomes new being or animal. So when does this happen? Does the soul enter a pregnant women and take over the new born baby who already had the body and had a souL??? Obviously no. So then the soul enter the women while she having sex when she becomes pregnant????? Sound strange??? Because reincarnation is wrong.

God bless.

Im not following your logic. Who is to say that god knows you are going to get pregnant? who is to say there is not a whole line of disembodied souls just waiting to enter the womb where the fetus is?How are you able to say for certian that the fetus already has a soul? How do you know that the fetus is souless untill one of those waiting souls enter it?

Here is a fact about the the original reason for being baptised. Back in thr 15th century it was the belief in christianity that a fetus did not have a soul untill it was born. They used to feel that there was a possiblity that a demon could enter and take over the fetus before a soul ever has a chance. So they did what was originally called an exobaptism after the baby was born just incase any demons did infact take over the body before a sould could.

Of course over the years society dictated that exobaptisms were scaring people away from joining the religion. SO they changed the prayer to leave out the part where they exercise the demon and renamed it baptism.

Now as I am sure you know, baptism is supposed to be a blessing instead of a removal of demons.

So even your own religion has believed that the soul isnt in the body untill after you are born.

What makes you so sure that you are right in saying that the soul is there the whole time so reincarnation isnt possible?

Also what do you mean that reincarnation is wrong? Are you saying all of a sudden that it is possible but it is not right? or somehow evil? or do you mean that it is wrong as in not possible?

since your own religon has taken a stance at one time that goes against what you claim could you help me understand better where you are coming from?

"The ultimate in optimism is believing that there is no life after death." (I don't know the author of this.)

Still, I believe it. It would be great to finally face the last challenge of this life, which is dying with some semblance of grace, and there be nothing on the other side. Just eternal rest.

I'm not that much of an optimist though.

I know I had free will before I came here, I chose to come here. I have free will right now and I believe I will have free will when I pass to the other side.

Death is not a question of whats going to happen to you when you crash the party at the great beyond, it's a question of what you want to do when you get there.

I'm going cosmic bungee jumping. I just love freaking people out as I scream through their world in free fall and then show up again on my way back.

Then I'm coming back to Earth. I like it here. The food is decent, the company is acceptable and the sex is fantastic.

What more could a growing soul ask for?

reply to post by Fiverz


It makes a lot of sense, and you make a lot of points. I recently had the pleasure of participating in a series of lectures by a man called Dr Victor Johnston. The lectures series focused on what "the real world" is comprised of. I'll never forget a point he wished to emphasize. And that is: That chemically and functionally, our brain has not evolved (or is not -- if you're uncomfortable with evolution) in order to understand the universe. Which seems to indicate that had a God placed us here, on this rock, he had no intention of letting us know he was there. Either that or he doesn't exist.

Despite the fact that notions of life and death are central to us, the world we see, the world we know, the world we interact with simply does not exist (an apple has no flavor, it is comprised of molecules -- being an example). So in a sense we are not living, we are skimming (examples of this are our minuscule visible light within the EM spectrum, color dominance based on survival (green > red), and others).

The point of all this?

Like you I have difficulty verbalizing. It's a torrent of feelings. What sparked the burst was when you mentioned peeling everything away. And to me that would mean an infinitely dark, alien place. Strangely, this is not at all frightening.

I won’t attempt to try to answer anyone’s questions because there are no “answers” as such. I can only try to tell you what I believe to be my answer to my questions. And, that answer lies within the essence of thought.

Example: You have a radio and you are listening to talk show. The guest on the talk show is explaining his idea about how to eliminate poverty in the world.

As he speaks his idea the microphone he is talking into picks up vibrations in the air and electrically converts these vibrations into radio waves that are beamed out into the universe. You receive those radio waves on your radio. Your radio converts the radio waves back into electrical pulses which are, in turn, converted into sound waves that you receive.

All of the above is explained quite well by science…except for the “thought” itself. Yes, science can explain the physics and the bio chemistry that projects the thought, but not the thought itself. Science cannot combine a pinch of chemical, some electrical current, a protein here and a dash of amino acid there, mix all this up in a test tube, but they have not created a thought. There is energy behind that thought and it is transmitted out to the universe.

Quantum physics tells us that we (and all matter) is energy in a solid state. That material things exist as a pattern of probability arising from the quantum field. Since our bodies and our brains are only temporary solid forms of energy and a thought is energy it is possible that through a process called quantum entanglement, that our some total of body and thought, our personality, our essence or soul are entangled and upon the advent of death, the energy entanglement survives and is dispersed throughout the universe. Quantum entanglement is the term used to explain how particles can know the position and condition of another particle separated by vast expanses of space in real time. Also known as “spooky action at a distance”, or transmitting information at speeds faster than that of light. Also, this is referred to as “non-locality”, which means that there actually is no space between particles.

Putting all these things together, I have come to believe that we become one with the essence of the universe, or the thought that creates the universe, if you will. The universe and the material within the universe are nothing more than a concept of thought.

This was solidified by an experience I had 20 years ago. I was extremely sick upon returning home from a coast to coast airline trip and “died” for a few moments. My experience was different that those I hear about all the time. I never saw the “white Light” or tunnel, instead I found myself in a non-material realm without form. I was aware of others around me and felt quite welcome. I then came to a great realization that I had been there before. In fact, I had originated there and I thought “Oh, yeah, now I remember. Now I’m home!” Unfortunately I came back and am sitting here writing this and getting somewhat ticked off about it.

I could never put into words what I experienced, but everything I have learned since then has only served to reinforce my experience and I have come to believe in it.

I’m 65 now and the days and months are passing faster and faster but I really don’t mind, it’s been a good thought all the way.

reply to post by Hopup Dave


I found your post reassuring and fascinating. Just one thing I wanted to add into the mix (or 2 possibly).

I have always believed that science can rationalize and explain the mechanics of thought. A crude explanation would be to break down a thought into its most basic components, or senses. Each of these in turn can be monitored or stimulated. The use of certain substances, even foods, can alter our perception and thoughts. Which tells me that as much as we'd like to believe that our mind is distinct from our body, our thoughts derive from our physical make-up.

Which leads me to my second point. The release of '___' from the pituary gland upon death, or near death.

Dr. Rick Strassman, while conducting '___' research in the 1990s at the University of New Mexico, advanced the theory that a massive release of '___' from the pineal gland prior to death or near death was the cause of the near death experience (NDE) phenomenon. Several of his test subjects reported NDE-like audio or visual hallucinations.

hypography.com...

What do you make of this? I have no idea myself, but do you believe (from the gut) that this could be a reason, or are you convinced your NDE was authentic and aloof from this?

Just curious.


[edit on 18-11-2008 by Oscitate]

I think I might be able to provide an answer...How did you feel before you were born? What did you see? What did you know? I think that most of us will agree that it was NOTHING. If life is a cycle and death is the end, then it is a return to this mindset, or lack thereof. After death is literally nothing.

reply to post by edgecrusher2199


That's true, and is close to what I believe (personally I believe in reincarnation, organically, but this involves the death of consciousness).

On the other hand though, there are cases of retroactive hypnosis which can be startling, and I'm not sure what to make of those. If they were true, then...

Who knows?

I had read within the pages of this thread someone mentioned consciousness may not exist but our energy may.

Some people say consciousness never ceases but last time I had an operation and was out like a light, woke up and can't tell you or myself where I was during the operation. I was fast asleep so from this and injuries, we can be sure that loss of consciousness is possible.

Is that loss of consciousness death?

That is quite a scary thought... I had always hoped or thought death was a permanent separation of the self.... but the loss of consciousness is I feel the scarey part... what if that is what death is?

One minute your here and thinking, perceiving then your asleep = death?

Originally posted by juveous
How does a body of people have a mutual answer to things like Life after death? I just can't agree that there is only one answer for certain things.

Isn't there only one answer to the question, "is there life after death"? No matter who we are, where we come from, or how we are brought up "death" will come to us all in the same way. Only through individuality is there a sense of more than one correct answer.

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
We cant answer the question untill we realize that we knew the answer all along. and we cant realize we knew it all along untill we know the answer.

Again it's not about the answers or realizing the answers, it's about the questions. Ask the right questions.

Originally posted by Oscitate
The bottom-line is that God exists is a realization you made. That he is all-knowing is another.

I never said "he". He would be referring to a being of some sort and that would be ignorant thinking on our part.

To you, the rest of us are floundering along in the dark, while you urge them to make the same realization.

I never claimed I was right and everyone else is "in the dark". I stated my take on the subject--that is all.

The existence of an all-knowing entity, that we are part of, as you say, certainly makes things easier.

Again I never said God was an entity. Did you notice the ' ' around God? Those were there to emphasize I was using the term "God" loosely. As humans we think we must put a name to everything, and although I think the word God has been distorted so badly by religion, I have no choice than to use the word, even loosely.

But the insinuation that the rest of us are asking "irrelevant" questions is condescending. To which I would ask you, what is a relevant question?

I ask irrelevant questions everyday. I still ask myself "why am I here", "what happens when I die" and "what is God". All of which, in my opinion, are irrelevant because I already know those questions.

My whole point was to search for the questions, not the answers. Once you ask the right questions, the answers become apparent.

Edit: where's the preview button?

[edit on 18-11-2008 by Niobis]

reply to post by Oscitate


"Which leads me to my second point. The release of '___' from the pituary gland upon death, or near death. "

I liken this to a radio that is receiving a bandwidth and drifts of scale, or a radio that is operating with broken parts. It is still a material object, it still looks like a radio but it is failing, dying. The condition of the radio does not reflect or portray the thought that is being transmitted and received. Dementia and other disorders are akin to broken radios. They cannot convey the thought properly anymore. The origin of the thought does not lie within the function of the brain, but rather the mind, and that is the quantum field from which everything arises. There are many other names for this, the overself, the super conscious, the the higher self divine mind, god. The function of the brain is to put this thought into words and therby motion.

If there is truly no "locality" as is believed in quantum physics, there is no distance between the particles that make up our our material bodies, All of that is energy in one form or another, so entangled that no space exists between them. A singularity, in other words. We are all one with everything and only thought creates the "probability of matter". Death is only the termination of the pattern of probability. The mind untangles itself from the probability pattern of matter and returns to the singularity.

The journey of life is a learning experience and our personalities are a reflection of that experience. The question I have not been able to answer is why? I have a pet theory about that, but that is another subject.

I do believe my concept - not because it is right or true, but because it is my knowledge gained through my own experience. Mileage may vary. Don't try this at home!

I never thought much about life and consciousness until the Star Trek
Next Generation series debuted with its "Hollow Deck". To the crew of
the ship, the folks they met in the hollow-deck were simply ficticious
images that acted and felt real. But these "people" who the crew
came in contact with were certain that they were living,
breathing, intelligent humans. Not make-believe hollow-grams.

One episode that particularly stands out in my mind was one where
captain Picard told this hollow-deck character near the end of the
episode that he was just an image made by a computer..not a real
being. The guy/image with a distressed, startled look exclaimed,
"That can't be true! I have a wife and kids and home." He then asked
captain Picard what would happen to him when Picard walks out the
door and ends the program. "Will I still exist?", he asked sadly.
Picard said in his calm voice, "I honestly don't know." Picard then
walked out the door and the room went pitch black.

That portion of the episode has played through my mind often as
I wonder what our lives and our reality really is. We could all be
just characters in a dream that some sophisticated mind is having.
When he/she/it wakes up, everything that we know, including us,
ends in an instant. Hopefully that's not the case, but I firmly
belive that much science fiction that human writers and producers
bring to books and movies is based on truth, even though it wasn't
supposed to be. I believe the Bible says that everything is made
in God's imagination. Since we are all a part of God's imagination,
even what we dream is real at some level of existance. Science
can explain some things, but my God-given intuition says that it
can't even begin to explain 99.999% of the universe because most
of reality is out of our plane of dimensional existance.

Is there a religion that teaches God as love and that we're all
a part of God and God's plan? I'm growing tired of religions that
say "God loves us, but those who don't believe the way we do
will face eternal punishment".

-cwm

Originally posted by carewemust
One episode that particularly stands out in my mind was one where
captain Picard told this hollow-deck character near the end of the
episode that he was just an image made by a computer..not a real
being. The guy/image with a distressed, startled look exclaimed,
"That can't be true! I have a wife and kids and home." He then asked
captain Picard what would happen to him when Picard walks out the
door and ends the program. "Will I still exist?", he asked sadly.
Picard said in his calm voice, "I honestly don't know." Picard then
walked out the door and the room went pitch black.

I really liked this! Very scarey though... I wonder if the hologram in the episode had a pulse? we will never know...but the possibilities put forward can be quite scarey.

star for you!
cheers


[edit on 18-11-2008 by Thurisaz]