Ponderings/questions about Life after death

I look at it this way. Our soul or conciousness (whatever you want to call it) is like the driver of a car, our bodies are the car and our brain is the computer of the car. When we die, it's like our car breaking down and not working anymore. We can get get into a new car and continue to drive (reincarnation) however, we have no memory of our previous lives because we have a new computer in our new car or we can get into another type of vehicle or take public transit (universal concousness). I however do not think that what we end up doing is our decision. I believe that our essence meets with a kind of over seen council or entity and after discussions with them/him/her, our next stage of existence is determined.

Just my two cents.

reply to post by switching yard


As a child I had a number of NDEs, because of my tender years, the experiences were untainted by bizarre religeous dogma of any stripe.
Years later after other experiences, I read many translations of Tibetan Buddhist teaching, and it was only these works that made any sense to me.
There are several NDE type threads running at the moment, I suggest looking at these too.
All I would add, is that if we read books or listen to others, we only have belief, whereas if we actually experience an event then we have knowledge.

Regards,

Horsegiver.

reply to post by gimme_some_truth


Though I haven't experienced life after death, I believe in it. I don't see how so many peoples testimony can be so easily dismissed amongst skeptics. I'm 43 years old and twice my mind has been able to relocate outide of my physical body (your typical out of body experience). The first time was when I was 22/23, when I was put in a situation of extreme fear. I popped out, and then popped right back in. The second time was last year - I found myself walking up my to my sisters house and I was a bit confused because I couldn't remember driving there and then I realized I'm dreaming - but awake. I was able to look inside her house and later tell her, things that were in her home - that there is no way I knew about. Now I know our minds can relocate outside our bodies, independent of our brain. That's huge to me.

People are going to come along and tell you (from a Biblical standpoint), that all men are appointed to one life and then they are judged. I'm coming from the same standpoint but saying 'Not so fast, folks." Some of the ancient texts, that are not included in the Bible - I know are true. It is the Church who has set the limits of knowledge in motion and it's up to the individual to find the truth.


"One question that was brought up involves reincarnation. Assuming reincarnation exists, are we required to reincarnate? Are we allowed to stay in the after life? Is it up to us? Or is it up to some one else?"

If there is even a remote possibility that reincarnation exists, I'm going to do everything in my power to not come back here. This place is absolutely beautiful but if I took a set a scales and weighed all the beauty against all the worries and fears of this world - the scales would break. Many near deathers report, that you are given a choice to come back (even in groups with your loved ones). I find no satisfaction in watching my body age and decay before my very eyes but from Eden until now - it's obvious someone has enjoyed it.

"Also if you look at the population through out time it has increased quite a bit. Does that mean that more souls are being created? Does it mean that the same souls are being some how cut in half and shared? Does it mean there is no such thing as souls? What does it mean?"

No. We are all born with a drop of Spirit. It's up to the person to ignite the spark and bring it forth. Jesus gives each of us a one in two chance of getting it right but that number becomes even narrower because not everyone follows or even knows how to apply his teachings. We are practically set up to fail from the get-go. He knew this and came to open our eyes to the truth.

"What about death in general. Is death an inevitability? Do we only die because we accept it as an inevitability? If one truly believes that you cannot die, what happens? Do you die? Do you not?"

The physical body must die. Spirit is the next level of existence. Vibrating energy, that traverses another dimension. Get it right and Jesus says you can come in and go out because he is the gate keeper.

"What of existence? If at any point in our lives, one truly believes that they don’t exist, do they cease to exist? or did they never exist in the first place? If you do exist, can you even cease to exist?"

You ask a very deep question here, so it calls for a very deep answer.Lol If you've never listened to any other advice before - please listen now.

Every story has a moral and the Bible is no different. Failure to listen has caused every single problem we find ourselves faced with. Eve didn't listen and neither did Adam. If you find yourself on the other side be extremely careful of anyone and what they offer you to eat. In the Gospel of Thomas, the disciples ask Jesus how their end will come. He responds 'Have you found the beginning that you know the end? You see when you stand at the beginning - you will know the end...... and you won't TASTE DEATH!'

1. Always listen.
2. Always be leary of what you eat - even in the afterlife.

Great post, here's my tuppence...

As quantum-physics proves, at the quantum level all matter is energy, meaning everything we perceive as solid is really only condensed energy, and therefore has no real solidity. It is only our own brains that tell us that that table is solid, and as we as humans vibrate at a similar speed to the table we cannot indeed put our hand through it, unless we raise our vibration (occurences of which have been documented)

I'm a sound engineer so I kind of see everything as frequencies and find this stuff easy to comprehend, so apologies if I don't explain myself very well, but I'll try to break it down:

1: Everything in the universe is energy. That energy expresses itself as a frequency.

2: Scientists agree that the human brain can only decode 0.005% of all the available frequencies that pass through us! That means that 99.995% of all the frequencies in the universe are unavailable to us! Makes you think really...The frequencies we can percieve are not mainly decoded by five senses as we are led to believe in the West, but are rather decoded by our DNA itself. To understand this you have to realise that DNA is a 'crystalline' matrix...as you may know crystals (quartz etc.) are used in radios to pull the intangible signal from the air and decode it into a frequency audible to the human ear. It is the same principle with our DNA. Furthermore most of the stuff it decodes may be blanked out by the brain, so you may not even know that you know what you know, you know? This theory helps me understand psychics (who can simply decode a greater range of frequencies than most) and things like apparitions, which are mainly just 'trapped' frequencies within a space. It's all about frequency! Nothing more...

3: So accepting that we are basically blind as a species compared to the vast amount of decodable frequencies that penetrate us at every given moment opens up a whole new world of what is really out there...just because an ant doesn't realise it is walking over your arm doesn't mean you don't exist, right? There could be billions of life-forms around us that we simply cannot decode their signals with the human brain (check out the alleged life-form known as 'rods' for an example) The crop-circle makers could be another examle, or even the reptilians that David Icke talks of...I'm not saying I belive it per se, but I'm not arrogant enough to discount the possibility (and believe me, I'm arrogant enough for most other things!)

4: Keeping all this in mind, here is my theory on our experiences as humans: We can only decode extremely slow frequencies, most so slow that we percieve them as dense matter. As energy cannot disappear, but rather changes form (major rule of physics) it is impossible for our energy to simply vanish when we die: It has to go somewhere. Most people who have had near-death experiences say that they raised above their bodies as light-beings, and I can understand this. What I believe is happening is that the consciousness frees itself from the slow-vibration that is the body and simply assumes another waveform, one that co-exists with the 'physical' realm but cannot be percieved by those who dwell within it...check out Bill Hicks' excellent 'It's just a Ride' speech on Youtube, he nails it...

5: Lastly, with regard to your thoughts on reincarnation: I believe it is a choice...and I believe most of us here today incarnated knowing full well we would be tested in these trying times. Just as we as 3rd dimensional beings can choose to raise our vibration through meditation/yoga/prayer etc., I'm sure it is possible to lower your vibration in a similar fashion and enter this crazy thing called life...are there more souls being created now? Well you can divide the ocean into droplets but it's still the ocean...If we are all from the same consciousness it doesn't matter how many times it is divided, we all experience life subjectively, but we're all the same in the end...

A great topic!

I find it odd that all though history be it the Ateks or the Egyptians, they ALL believe in life after death. Or that the end of this life is just leading to the beginning of another. It's an intresting thing that it's almost across the board.

There's been so many programs and fictional movies suggesting life after death. Alleged contacts through mediums etc. OK, I can accept that there's something after death. Psychics telling the dead to move on etc. Move on to where? The light? what's that? a recycling center? the neighbors house?

I would imagine that Spielberg could make an interesting movie about what ghosts fear and go through also. Like lightening storms, speed demon orbs steeling a spirits memories and energies etc.

The bible mentions the second death and I've heard the saying: "Death is retirement." is it really?

Some remote viewing sites suggest they know. I used to believe I was trained as a kid to be a remote viewer also. Now I'm not so sure anymore.

Here's one site: www.trvnews.com...

I believe in a shallow form of organic resurrection. Sorry, nothing overwhelming or uplifting.

Matter cannot be created, nor can it be destroyed, as such, what we are dies, breaks up and is recycled. We are all made of each other, and the universe if made of us (and vice-versa of course). Despite its rather gray underlying philosophy it has been exalted by many other philosophies and religions (such as Confucianism and Taoism; in India, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism).

I find the idea that we have a soul, or at the very least we retain consciousness very difficult to swallow. Not abstract or laughable, just unlikely. But I do my best to keep an open mind, I've changed my mind before and adapted my beliefs to evolve with new evidence, and I will do so again as time passes.

Great thread.

To the OP and many posters here...

You're asking the wrong question/s when you ask "is there life after death", or "is there "birth after death".

You already know the answer to that question. You already know the answers to many great questions. Our problem is we are searching for answers when we should be searching for the questions. The answers are easy. They have been with us since the beginning, and will always be with us.

Don't ask questions you already know the answers to, answer the questions you don't know.

As for the original question, "is there life after death", of course there isn't. At least not life as we define it in this life. Some have mentioned re-incarnation, and in my opinion, I think there is a choice to come back to this reality after death. After all, we all chose to be here. So I suppose that could be considered "life after death".

I think death is going to be much like waking from a dream. We will remember the more important and tragic events, but most of this life will fade away really quick. And the longer we are "dead", the more memories of this life will fade.

That's my 2 pennies.

S&F.
Cheers!

[edit on 18-11-2008 by Niobis]

The most logical explanation that no one wants to face which becomes evident in most of these posts is that nothing happens after death. We are insignificant to the universe. We simply just black out. We know nothing of our existence. No one ever wants to face that fact and if true would be a big piece to the puzzle of religion. (I am Lutheran and have done the whole communion thing...now a college student close to graduation with eyes a little more open)

I really always thought that this question however, could go so much further and could relate directly to the universe and it's lifespan+reappearance. However we don't have the capabilities and likely never will to ever compute or think of any reasonable theories other than the fact that we just black out if we are ever 100%certain their is no higher power of any kind.

I have a theory on "GOD" and the universe. I believe that life will never end. My theory has to do with the discoveries made with the Big Bang machine that the universe pre big bang were more like a molten liquid than a gas, what I think will happen is the universe over many eons will cool and solidify when all the gravity pulls everything into the center, then the heat will become tremendous and once again it will melt into a liquid starting the cycle over again. now my belief on "GOD" would have to be that it is beyond the universe and what keeps bouncing the ball forward, at least that is what my primitive mind can come up with. I also believe that god doesn't care as much as they say he does.

One of my rather simplistic speculations is that we are merely matter imitating a higher order of some universal physicality, and that we are constrained by some arbitrary laws of natural existence (all matter, not just biological beings, that is). And that matter takes on whatever random form. Biology being one of the most complex that we observe. When I look at images of very small insects under an electron microscope, that universal structure becomes even more tantalizing and inspiring. They start to look more like these perfect miniaturized constructions, almost as if we were capable of imagining and building them ourselves.

We are but matter imitating the "Gods", if you will. But that notion is so experientially motivated I can not personally hold an affirmed belief in that statement unless I consider myself insane. I tend to keep these thoughts to myself, and under no circumstances contribute them to any sufficiently dedicated social institution, such as at university or work, or church. People tend not to listen either because I think it might directly affect their reproductive fitness (its essentially nerdy-it deviates from the social norm of thought), or because it would affect their sanity (their comfort zone). Imagine if everyone ascribed to some similar "truth" as my own; they'd all flop over dead. I doubt they'd be motivated to pursue anything, if they held on to some higher belief of "knowing everything there is to know."

Assuming I actually believe what I just said, I could then equally ascertain that this entire existence is simply an illusion, and that all these complexities are just here to keep us in check, grounded in the physical reality provided by this existence, or this creator, and all that would be equally as valid... So, we tend to gravitate toward proofs. And that's deeply grounded in our evolutionary psychology. If you follow a reproducible proof, based on facts, you'll be more likely to fell a Mammoth, for example, back in early hunter-gatherer tribes. If you fail, you die.

This notion that there must be some kind of proof could be some measure of keeping us grounded. Proof is only necessary, I believe, in some social (or rather existential) structure, which either benefits from it or can only be properly sustained by it, such as human civilization or even the most basic human senses (sight especially) and then further all human thought, which is excited by these senses. If we want to explain the universe in context of this structure, then sure, proof is necessary.

And since we aren't physically capable of describing the universe without the use of our senses and of our experiential modalities, then it is not all beneficial to anyone to deviate from this method of producing proofs, coming to conclusions, making further hypotheses, and then extrapolating data from previous conclusions. It's that human tendency that we should follow as closely as possible, because it's the best reality we have. If we deviate too much, we're only blinding ourselves.

-----------------------------------

My belief is that we will only know the most about our Universe and our existence when we develop new modes of consciousness, and only when we are capable of physically eliminating our dependence on them, by abandoning those biological faculties, such as the common five senses, and replacing them with new technology. Otherwise we will eventually reach a limit. And we are doing more and more of that these days. We have radio telescopes, which replaces sight, although that data is then converted back... so it's not yet perfect. We have to redevelop our receptors so that they aren't always funneled back into some recognizable human data set.

Gerald Hopkins once said "The Best ideal is the true/ And other truth is none./All glory be ascribèd to/The holy Three in One."

I think he means that the culmination of our scientific understanding only has basis in our adherence to the human institutions, which provide for their existence. Too much deviation will only conceal the real truths. He was a Jesuit by the way, so a lot of what he said was religiously founded.

But I must admit I enjoy the clear intellectualism and comforting cogency of that statement, regardless of its possible religious insinuations.


[edit on 18-11-2008 by cognoscente]

reply to post by gimme_some_truth


I have been obsessively dwelling on this subject lately.
The more I think about it, the more terrified I become.
And I am a spiritual person so I should believe in something
after death.

Anyway, here is a good article that tries to answer some of the
questions you have asked:
Why We Can't Imagine Death

Consciousness is a function of the brain that is only "alive" because of the blood flow and electrical signals that go through it.. When the body dies you will definitely be switched off, deleted and dead. If there ever was such a thing as another side or dimension, we would cross it without identity and mix with the other energy that existed..

On the bright side.. After death our body decays and mixes with the earth and becomes part of new life such as insects, trees, bacteria, whatever i suppose..

Actually, all of these questions can be answered fairly easily.

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
One question that was brought up involves reincarnation. Assuming reincarnation exists, are we required to reincarnate? Are we allowed to stay in the after life? Is it up to us? Or is it up to some one else?

Reincarnation was brought up like so...

Belief in reincarnation has ancient roots. This doctrine is a central tenet within the majority of Indian religious traditions, such as Hinduism (including Yoga, Vaishnavism, and Shaivism), Jainism, and Sikhism. The idea was also entertained by some ancient Greek philosophers. Many modern Pagans also believe in reincarnation as do some New Age movements, along with followers of Spiritism, practitioners of certain African traditions, and students of esoteric philosophies such as Kabbalah, Sufism and Gnostic and Esoteric Christianity. The Buddhist concept of Rebirth although often referred to as reincarnation differs significantly from the Hindu-based traditions and New Age movements in that there is no unchanging "soul" (or eternal self) to reincarnate.

Source

There for, all of the beliefs on reincarnation were birthed by religion. now, we can attempt to answer your question, but! we would be answering it in a non-scientific way (which is what you want i assume). We would be answering it through the beliefs of those specific religions, All of which are speculations (impossible to prove).

The only way someone could accept the answers would be if that person truly believed in that religion (in a sense brain washed to believe anything that religion says).

So in actuality, we cant answer that question in the way that you would want as it is impossible to prove scientifically (at this point in time).

Also if you look at the population through out time it has increased quite a bit. Does that mean that more souls are being created? Does it mean that the same souls are being some how cut in half and shared? Does it mean there is no such thing as souls? What does it mean?

Once again this is impossible to prove factually in the way you are asking (through religious beliefs).

However, I can prove why there is an increase in population over time through science. Lets take a group of people on an island, they live there for 200 years. Humans have the possibility of producing more than one child at a time (twins for instance). we do not die directly after reproduction, thus an increased amount of population. our relatively long lives allow us to reproduce more than once during our life time.

Take for example a single cell or bacteria. they (by religious standards) do not have "souls". yet they are still capable of reproducing on an extremely high rate. why is that? not because the transfer of a soul (which doesn't exist in them according to religion), but because its not a formula that makes one A-sexual cell reproduce, 1 cell form, and the single cell that reproduced dies.

What about death in general. Is death an inevitability? Do we only die because we accept it as an inevitability? If one truly believes that you cannot die, what happens? Do you die? Do you not?

ok then, lets take all life on earth, it all has an end. lets take a single celled organism. it eventually will die. is it because that single cell organism accepts that its life is limited? no! because it doesn't process death as information. it lives, it dies, it doesn't have to accept anything or deny anything because death is in fact inevitable.

Take another example. a sun! It is thought that about 4.59 billion years ago, the rapid collapse of a hydrogen molecular cloud led to the formation of a third generation T Tauri Population I star, the Sun. AKA the birth or "life" of the sun. Following the red giant phase of a suns life, intense thermal pulsations will cause the Sun to throw off its outer layers, forming a planetary nebula. The only object that will remain after the outer layers are ejected is the extremely hot stellar core, which will slowly cool and fade as a white dwarf over many billions of years. thus the death of the sun. according to the logic's of "if we don't believe it it cant happen" This would only apply to humans even though nothing else seems to show that they accept their inevitably.

What of existence? If at any point in our lives, one truly believes that they don’t exist, do they cease to exist? or did they never exist in the first place? If you do exist, can you even cease to exist?

This is in fact possible. but only in the mind of the person who believes he or she does not exist. In reality, everyone can see that person, everyone can touch, smell, taste that person (if necessary).

This question is exactly like the sound in a forest one. If a tree falls down in the forest and no one hears it, does it still make a sound? Yes of course the sound is still present. Sound doesn't cease to exist simply because no one heard it. Just like how there are pitches in sound that are so high or low that a human ear cannot pick it up. It still exists, we can still record it, we just cant personally hear it. Another example would be with a defend person. Just because they cant here doesn't mean that there is no sound to everyone. It is only in their body that they cannot hear sound.

hope that has answered all of your questions. feel free to ask more.

there is nothing more complex and rational about life after death than this - THE TIBETAN BOOK OF THE DEAD - there is explanation of all that stuff like a light at the end of the tunel, reincarantion ....

[edit on 18-11-2008 by naljorpa]

LIFE IS BUT A GAME - A SIMULATION RUNNING ON A COMPUTER - we are either illusionary computer characters created by the simulation or plugged in from the outside. Life, time and everything else are illusions. Given enough power anything can be duplicated within a computer simulation.

This is all being taken from a very scientific point of view, which doesnt leave much for the imagination. Im suprised no one has mentioned past life hyponotists. I have been to one before and the amount of information I got was incredible.

I find it incredibly terrorfying to even imagine just disappearing, no life after death, nothing. So I searched for answers and found a very good book by Micheal Newton (Past life Hypnotist) called Journey of the Souls. It studies 'Life between lives'. So the time that we are between dead and reincarnating. Its a very good book, and it answered some questions for me.

I have also heard many other things from psychics. I happen to know a few psychics quite well, and they all three of them all have roughly the same belief. That we come to Earth to live the human experience. There are many planets we can live on if we wanted to, but we are here to learn and advance our soul.

This is probably a little more over the top then most people are looking for but this is what ive heard and learned over the years and it fits alright with me.

Originally posted by Niobis
To the OP and many posters here...

You're asking the wrong question/s when you ask "is there life after death", or "is there "birth after death".

You already know the answer to that question. You already know the answers to many great questions. Our problem is we are searching for answers when we should be searching for the questions. The answers are easy. They have been with us since the beginning, and will always be with us.

Don't ask questions you already know the answers to, answer the questions you don't know.

As for the original question, "is there life after death", of course there isn't. At least not life as we define it in this life. Some have mentioned re-incarnation, and in my opinion, I think there is a choice to come back to this reality after death. After all, we all chose to be here. So I suppose that could be considered "life after death".

I think death is going to be much like waking from a dream. We will remember the more important and tragic events, but most of this life will fade away really quick. And the longer we are "dead", the more memories of this life will fade.

That's my 2 pennies.

S&F.
Cheers!

[edit on 18-11-2008 by Niobis]

Hey, thanks for posting. Im not so sure I follow what you are trying to say, so I would like to ask some questions so I can better understand where you are coming from.

First of, when you say that we already know the answers to the questions that have been asked in this thread, what do you mean? I certainly dont know the answers other wise I would not have needed to ask. Are you saying that somewhere deep down we know the answer but have some how forgot? If so how can we already know? and how could we forget?

You also say that we should be answering the questions that we dont know. That seems a bit over my head. I dont understand how one can answer a question if they dont know what the question is.

I may be completley misunderstanding you. Either way, would you please help me to understand better what you mean?

Originally posted by scorps
I find it incredibly terrorfying to even imagine just disappearing, no life after death, nothing.

I agree. To me the thought or idea of ceasing to exsist is a scary one. I just cant wrap my head around the possibility of non exsistence. Deep in my mind and in my heart it just feels right that there is some type of "life after death" in one form or another. I dont know what it will be like but to me I just dont think I could get behind the idea of non exsistence after death.

I sit and try to think of what it would be like to not exsist, and I have trouble doing it. Are humans really fully capable of imagining such a thing?

I am reminded of what ImaMarty said about how we are here for the purpose of experiencing everything. Well does that mean experincing everything includes non exsistence? Can we experience non exsistence only for a limited time? or is it that once we experience non exsistence we are stuck not exsisting for eternity?

reply to post by kindred

Interesting concept. Yet some how the questions look remarkebly the same if we were talking about "god" Isnt that neat?

Ah so many questions. If we are a computer simulation, who created us? Why did they create us? Who created our creator? Why war our creator created? Is our creator a computer simulation? Who created our creators creator? Is there an never ending chain of creators?

Are we in a way our own creator? I mean to say that when we became intelligent enough to realize our own awarness, did we create a creator in order to try and better understand our place in the universe, or was there a creator already who helped realize our own awarness and conciousness?