Auto union members refuse to open wallets to help rescue Detroit

....so why should I ?!?!?!


Everyone knows the high paid union workers and inept management are the major reasons the big three are in a crap hole.

The UAW is telling its members to lobby in support of the bailout ( read - contact congress)

So let me see if I understand this. Some union members want to earn a six figure salary AND want American tax payers to send a check for 50 billion to help them out.

I DON'T THINK SO !!

www.ft.com...



[edit on 17-11-2008 by venividivici]

I agree with your anger at the idea of bailing our Detroit. I do not agree with your blaming this mess on the union workers, however (and I'm extremely anti-union.) The auto workers union is a joke. They have no teeth thanks to the fact that the auto industry has a history of just shipping any jobs they can't fill with low paid union workers South to Mexico.

There are many reasons the 'Big 3' are in deep trouble. Outsourcing is part of the problem... how can you sustain local business when all of your capital is cycling overseas and outside of America's borders instead of being paid to local workers who build local ecocmies where you wish to sell your product? The credit freeze has hurt them incredibly by forcing more buyers to pay cash, which for most is way out of their range when buying a new vehicle. The inane gas prices, environmental gas taxes, and other demonization of American cars by the leftist eco nazis has harmed Detroit considerably as well. Finally, Americans simply aren't buying new cars right now. If the car they drive is running, they are remaining satisfied with it... which is what people do when the economy is in the toilet, they make do with what they have where large pruchases are concerned.

reply to post by burdman30ott6





Well put, I agree with your assessment.



Sailor

I think that $75 an hour in wages and benefits for a factory worker could have a bit to do with the Big 3's troubles. I understand the biggest problems are the legacy costs from retired workers due to their overly generous retirement and medical programs.

The $75 an hour I've heard mentioned on more than one occasion from multiple news sources.

When a person can work on an assembly line for wages a person with a Masters Degree would envy, it is bound to cause a financial failure. It also has a profound effect on the working poor. Every dollar too much a worker is paid adds a dollar to the cost of the product which hurts those at the bottom the worst.

We have seen this before with Airline workers, Longshoremen (over $120,000 a year for laborers and equipment operators ) and UPS.

UAW is nothing more than a legalized extortion racket taking advantage of workers greed. Sure it is great when a HS Dropout can earn as much as a highly educated and skilled worker, but it has consequences that are not good. It drives the cost up to the point that eventually the product can't be sold which destroys the company and the overpaid workers, who will never again find that kind of pay for their skills.

To be fair though, the bad decisions by American Auto Manufacturers also had a great deal to do with it. On both sides it is greed that is the real cause. Greedy workers + greedy companies = bad things.

[edit on 11/17/2008 by Blaine91555]

Like I said on another thread, People have not clue of what in the hell is going on with America last factories and America automakers.

Our own corporate ridden government in a effort to keep this nation blind and bickering about blaming unions and everybody else but their own corrupted butts that are the ones robbing our nation blind and allowing the leeching of jobs oversea.

While people are fighting each other the way that the powers wants this nation to stay, you have been blind to what is gong on.

GM while asking for a bail out in the US have not problems spending millions even billions of dollars to build facilities abroad, like in Russia sparkling new facility that open last Friday.

If they are scraping for money why they don't use the millions or billions abroad to help the American companies?

No, they want the government to keep paying for the CEOs salaries and outrageous bonuses until they move all their factories oversea

Wake up people don't you get it? is nothing but a scam at the expenses of the tax payer in this nation.

Hmmmmm . . . it would appear the sun is setting on GM, and it could be the proverbial back breaker for the economy . . . here's today's latest, including a bit about the congressionally mandated Union role in this . . .

Analysis: Strings attached to auto bailout bills

Democrats and Republicans alike want to impose stiff conditions on any bailout of the auto industry, from limiting executive compensation and outlawing dividends to demanding union concessions.

They'll demand Union concessions

Oh nelly . . . somebody isn't getting paid . . . that's never a good sign . . .

Auto giant in crisis mode says it will delay payments for rebates and sales incentives until Dec. 11.

Cash-strapped General Motors Corp. said Monday it will delay reimbursing its dealers for rebates and other sales incentives, an indication that the company is starting to have cash-flow problems.
Company spokesman John McDonald said payments due Nov. 28 will be delayed for two weeks until Dec. 11, while those due Dec. 4 will be paid Dec. 18.

GM Cash Flow Issues

And the usual daily example of the nonpartisan politics needed to fix this economic disaster . . .

Auto bailout prospects darken as GOP, Democrats clash; automakers say they're desperate

Though all sides agree that Detroit's Big Three carmakers are in peril, battered by the economic meltdown that has choked their sales and frozen loans, the White House and congressional Democrats are headed for stalemate over the government money that might go toward helping them.

Try not to gag . . .

Bottom line here is that if you're a banker, you're in the dough, if you're an auto worker, go learn something new

And there's always this approach . . .

GM = German Motors???

it's that whole beggers can't be choosers thing.

Sing with me now . . . Football, knackwurst, sauerkraut and Chevrolet . . .

Hmmmm . . . might work.

The 25 billion is not enough for GM to get out of the hole they are in, that money is going to pay for all the back pays for the CEOs and to finalized the building of factories abroad, then they are going to give the finger to America and move completely out of the US.

All pay by the tax payer.

reply to post by burdman30ott6


WHY has GM, Ford and Chrysler failed?

My first car was a Chevy .. I spent more money fixing the POS then I paid for it..

At 130k miles, having all but fallen apart, I got a whopping $500 for ..

That was probably a deal.

My crappy Chevy Cavalier.

My friend, same age, had a Honda Civic, same year (96) and when he sold his car, which had 210k miles on it, he got $3,500 for it.. a nice down payment on a new car right? I had $500 bucks.

What cars did I look at?

Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, and Hyundai (was not to impressed with Hyundai's)

I ended up buying a Toyota (Scion) .. which is on track to 1. Employ more American's then GM, Ford or Chrysler, as Toyota, Hyundai, Honda are all building plants in America while the "big three" fire us. 2. builds a better quality car, at a fairer price, with more options.

I test drove a few Chevy and Ford models. I test drove the Ford Focus (pos) .. The Chevy Malibu (Grandpa's car), the Chevy Aveo (Go karts have more acceleration) the Cobalt (my Cavalier with a new plastic cover?) .. and a Ford Mustang (which the old 2001 model we owned at one point broke down every 5k miles, the 2008 is anything but a sports car imo)

One thing I also looked at when I bought my car, was resale value.. I looked at my make and model on Auto Trader, the local car site, and Kelly's Blue Book .. My car at 2 years old would average only 5k less then what I paid for it..

A ford looses half it's value when you pull off the lot.

A Ford with 70k miles is considered worn, a Toyota or a Honda it's just getting broken in..

The big three offer

1. An inferior product
2. A price inflated product
3. Nothing new what so ever
4. When other companies built smaller cars, Ford made the Flex. Nuff Said.

They deserve to fail.

And our government BETTER NOT bail these bastards out..

And if they do, I say EVERYONE boycott the scum, boycott all their brands, and tell anyone who will listen to never buy "American" again!!

They will fail, and a new company will take it's place.. Hopefully bringing with it new ideas, better products, and less big corporation corruption causing it to go bankrupt!

reply to post by Rockpuck


Yup that pretty much sums it up. For the past 30 years they have relied on name while peddling the same crap with a different look. The transmissions go out after 60k, small stuff starts breaking after 10k, and it devalues like mad I mean what the hell. I can go buy a 2008 Cadillac Escalade from the auction with 10k miles right now for $30k meanwhile I can go to the dealer and get one with 50 miles for $60k. They really hold their value huh? This is why the free market needs to be allowed to work.

I do put part of this on the union though also. They arent willing to give an inch and they have been the ones putting these pieces of crap together for 30 years and yes some of the problems I have had with American vehicles are issues that are directly linked to Assembly. Just like the financial firms that mis managed should of been able to fail so should these guys. Its not like they will disappear. They will be bought out and opened under new management.

reply to post by Rockpuck


OK, I can't comment from personal experience on what you just posted because I have never owned a car. Since I was 13 and my dad bought me my first truck to rebuild and use to run around the dirt raods in Southern NM around the ranch (a trashed 55 Ford flatbed) all I have ever owned are trucks & SUVs. My next truck was a '76 Chevy which I put over 300K on with no problems until I blew the main seal and started hemmoraging oil. It made the round trip to college & back (170 miles) every day, two semester & 2 summer sessions a year, for 4 years. My next truck was an 87 Chevy half ton. I owned that truck for 8 years and put 250K on it (on top of the 100K already on the engine when I bought it for 2 grand). Again, same problem... blew the master seal and sold it to a migrant worker for $750. My current ride is a Jeep Cherokee with almost 200K on it. It runs fine.

Part of this may be that I'm a gear head and work on my own vehicles. Up to the Jeep, everything I owned and drove prior was in 110 degree heat in the summer and hard freezing at night in the winter. So I do not have a jaded view of GM products. My trucks, even when they blew a seal, never once left me walking unless you count the starter going stone dead on my 87.

I have a work van, Ford, with 330 K on it Canadian...not sure what that is in miles.....I also have my 1994 ford half ton (pick up) with 200 k miles on it ...bought it in Tulsa OK and I have driven that truck from Tulsa to Sturgis to Saskatchewan once a year every year as well as to work everyday.....which has been in 4 different states!!

I have a lot of friends who refuse to buy Ford, Chev or Chrysler because of breakdowns.

My Ford Truck 1994 has had a lot of work done on it as well as maintenence and I am needing to put a block heater in it this winter as I will be staying in Canada this winter.

Over all I am satisfied with both vehicles. The van I bought from an old guy who bought it new in 1995. I paid 900 for it. It was fully equiped for my work...ladder racks, part rack inside, bungie hangers for some tools and tool bins and racks. Runs really well.

But I have to agree that a lot of Jap and Korean vehicles seem to be buillt better.

[edit on 18-11-2008 by whiteraven]

I have to admit that so far our GM cars has been very good to us.

My last car was a 2006 Monte Carlos that I bought brand new top of the line with heated seats and key power on.

The smoothest and sweeter ride ever for me so far.

My daughter total my Monte Carlos three weeks ago in Atlanta, I am waiting for the pay off to purchased another car and this time I am looking at a foreign car.

Well, like everybody has seen my husband and I do not own and never had owner foreign cars he has a 2008 Mustang, my daughter a ford Focus that now she has to share we me for the time being (for obvious reasons).

My first foreigner car will be the next.

I am now boycotting GM.

Repeatedly the unions have been asked to make concessions for the companies and repeatedly they have ponied up and still the companies are failing and the root of that failure lies not in the workers and their unions but in management or should I say mismanagement... they are the ones with the really big wages and pensions and health insurance and golden parachutes... its time for them to step up to the plate and match sacrifice with sacrifice if they really want the companies to succeed.

The same is true of the airline industry and so many more... the ones who actually make the wealth by doing are asked to make the most sacrifices while the management waddles away fat and unscathed.

You want quality you pay for quality but when you pay quality prices for inferior work then the buyer looses all faith in the maker and that is what has happened at the big three.

And the ones who set the tone for that is the management, not the workers so lay blame where it belongs... on management.

[edit on 18-11-2008 by grover]

I remember my father telling me about starting the union down at the LB harbor in the 50's he said at the time they were working people like slaves,this was in the early 70's he said that now the unions would end up destroying companys,that they had over stepped their bounds,IMO unions are run by organized crime,once you sign with them they will never leave you alone,during summers I would work down at the harbor,we would start work then a horn would blow,I asked why we stopped working steward said"Longshoreman's break" got started again another horn,"stevadors break",few minutes more horn again"Enginners break",then 15 min later,it was our break,no wonder things are so expensive,I learned that at age 17,I could go on and on with other examples,but it makes my stomach turn

I agree that thier must be a balance between labour and capital. The problem is when Capital has gained the upper hand it has always degenerated into some form of slavery.

Socialism is not much better when viewed through the eyes of history.

The United States of America is a ceasless battleground between the two world views. We have many socialist trends in the system as well as capitalist trends.

It seems that at the moment both socialism as well as capitalism are failing.

All one has to do is view the markets in Moscow and the markets in New York.....both are devasted.

We are on the cusp of great change.

[edit on 18-11-2008 by whiteraven]

As a Retired UAW member we have had enough of giving consessions only to see 10 times the ammount we give go into bonuses. 75$ an hour is also BS and nothing compaired to what a superentendt makes and theres 2 of them for every 15 production workers. If GM fails that will be the end of the US as we know it and I believe thats why they are going to let it collapse. Talk to somebody who lived thru the depression and see how long it took the working man to recover . 25 years or more and it was the union that made it possible.

mikell

reply to post by venividivici


Turns out that the Government doesn't want to help either, And I do so agree with you on the expendetures coming out of my dust ridden wallet!! lolol

Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson has told Congress the administration remains firmly opposed to dipping into the government's $700 billion financial bailout fund to provide the Big Three automakers the $25 billion rescue they are seeking.

news.yahoo.com...;_ylt=AlbB_xgIznzsvWkBsl58hrKs0NUE

I guess that is because the 700 billion dollars now 2 trillion has been gone and done with.

In order to bail out the automakers they have to add another bail out bill.

Originally posted by marg6043
I guess that is because the 700 billion dollars now 2 trillion has been gone and done with.

In order to bail out the automakers they have to add another bail out bill.

Um . . . er . . . while you blinked . . .

Fighting the financial crisis has put the U.S. on the hook for some $5 trillion a report says. So far.

According to CreditSights, a research firm in New York and London, the U.S. government has put itself on the hook for some $5 trillion, so far, in an attempt to arrest a collapse of the financial system

Honest . . $5 trillion!!!