Top Republican senators oppose automaker bailout, page 5

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reply posted on 18-11-2008 @ 07:20 AM by GoalPoster

The reality here is that GM is playing a game of high stakes poker and I think they really tipped their hand last week . . . kinda blew it on two accounts in terms of their savings in the bank of public support . . .

Example #1

Example #2

If GM is as destitute as they claim, what the hell are they doing investing on foreign soil while claiming to need our tax dollars to save their bacon>

Whatever the reason, it is all in the perception. Maybe they've detatched themselves from reality so much that they fail to see that if you go to the food bank in a limo, you're probably won't even make it in the door let alone leave with a handout.

So, they continue to sit at the table bluffing while going 'all in' with our future.

Nice.

reply posted on 18-11-2008 @ 11:33 AM by KaiBosh

Why do people think GM deserves to be saved? Where is their competition to the Prius? Oh wait, they were too busy building an entire corporate conglomerate just to build Hummers that get 6 mpg. The US auto-makers are an ancient and corrupt dinosaur and it sickens me to see the unions get blamed for this mess. Guess what? Those contracts were NEGOTIATED. The reason all those employees get fat paycheques and benefits is because the companies were rolling in cash as fast as they could rake it in. They were the ones who decided what to do with their future, how to plan for a tomorrow that was quite obvious to the rest of the World.

I'm sorry millions of people will lose their jobs, but throwing money at GM isn't going to do anything but let the fat cats toss the moneybags into the trunks of their cars and get out of Dodge before it all goes sour. Nothing can save these companies, they have been pouring their R&D into the wrong direction for decades now and did so by their own volition and because they were deep into the pockets of the oil barons and corrupt politicians. They are still pouring out commercials that brag about how their latest SUV gets 20 miles to the gallon! Oh My God, that's amazing! People are still driving a 3 ton vehicle 100 miles to the store and back to get two bags of groceries. The Firefly made too much sense, so they stopped producing it altogether. GM can rot.

reply posted on 18-11-2008 @ 06:06 PM by mlowsley

Wow! And I used to think that ATS posters tended to be brighter. You should all start by reading this article at the Detroit Free Press:

www.freep.com...

The biggest difference is that the auto industry is trying to make good on the promises they made workers years ago. It isn't just jobs, people. How many of you know Ford, GM, and Chrysler retirees? I think you have all drunk the oligarchy's kool-aid.

The bankers, on the other hand, want money for the losses incurred by their own unethical practices. Simply put, the bankers are just criminals, the auto industry wants a BRIDGE loan - something to carry them over the hump to fulfill pension and healthcare obligations. So, we reward those who destroy American jobs and benefits and punish those trying to fulfill their obligations. Wow! You all have fallen for it hook, line, and sinker. Nothing to benefit anyone but the wealthiest.

I've worked in both industries. There is almost no waste in the auto industry of today. They are all cut to the leanest workforce and resources possible while still sustaining a semi-living wage. Yes, there are the problems of the "eat their young" syndrome, but, heck, that comes from the fact that the US government has continuously - since the late 1960s - continuously encumbered the domestic car market with unrealistic and when realistic, expensive, rules and regulations.

As to the person asking about why the international divisions are doing well? They don't have to follow Congressional dictates that have no base in reality.

Oh, and the reason the F-150, for instance, is a major seller still is not because of anything other than the necessity for the workhouse vehicle. F-150s are the beat up truck that keeps running while that Toyota or Honda is for going to church only. It is the American Public that chose to buy the gas-guzzlers due to the underwriting of Big Oil.

The US pays nowhere near the market price of oil. Even those high prices earlier in the year had more to do with the fluctuation of the dollar on the world market than it did on anything related to the actual cost of gas. If gasoline prices had kept up with inflation, we would be paying 3 to 4 USD already. See this chart (inflationdata.com... inflation_chart.htm to understand where gas should be.

Congress owes the auto companies for such atrocities as NAFTA, CAFTA, and creating a very hostile trade environment for all manufacturing. This hostile environment made the supplier network - that even the Japanese and Germans rely upon - so tenuous that when a manufacturing outsider at Chrysler tried to play "hardball" with a major plastics supplier he threatened several other auto body makers. (This got him a well-deserved slap on the wrist. The current CEO of Chrysler is an incompetent slash and burn type - so Chrysler will fail unless he is replaced with someone who understands the ins and outs of manufacturing.)

Other ways in which Congress has screwed the auto companies included safety mandates with no consideration of costs - while not requiring those same mandates on foreign imports. Allowing poor wages in the ignorant south. (The same group that continually votes against their own interests by voting for the same corrupt politicians in both parties.)

The bankers? They created a true ponzi scheme that had no relation ot real wealth and then stole billions of taxpayer dollars. There was a real solution to that involving eminent domaining their assets and allowing Fannie Mae to administer all confiscated - with minimal renumeration - land and financial "products."
MORE

reply posted on 18-11-2008 @ 06:09 PM by mlowsley

I have worked in both industries. No, the bankers involved belonged in jail. There were "honest" bankers who ended up being punished for doing the ethical thing vs. the convenient and very profitable thing.

BTW, the statistics do not support the idea that real subprime loans targeted at averting urban blight had anything to do with the mortgage disaster. Nope, it was those misusing those laws to create a market of suckered, financially uneducated individuals into buying homes they could not afford. I was nearly a victim myself but got out early enough. The statistics are out there if you care to look.

The bigger problem was the fact that the mortgage wholesalers created a system where they started betting on the repackaged debt and how it would fail - and the when. It became Monte Carlo on Wall Street. I have absolutely no empathy for the top tier of the Wall Streeters. (I feel for those on the lower rungs and support staff who were just doing their job.)

Really, the auto BRIDGE loan request has little to do with the GRANT given to the criminal bankers.

reply posted on 18-11-2008 @ 06:23 PM by Desert Dawg

A few years back I read in several places that one in six jobs in the United States depend on the automobile.

I note that some are happy and even looking forward to the collapse of the American auto industry.

Are you positive your job won't be affected?

As for American quality vs overseas quality, my last three new cars didn't require any warranty work and in fact none of them have gone back to the dealer for anything that's failed or gone wrong.

All Fords so I can't speak for GM or Chrysler.

88 Mustang 5.0 liter GT, 14 years 137,000 miles.
89 Ranger 4x4 which I still have, 140,000 miles right now.
Only parts replaced were power steering pump seals and that didn't take long.
Less than $5. for the Mustang and less than $15. for the Ranger.
I did the work fwiw.

My 2002 Ford F-150 SuperCrew, 6 years and 63,000 miles and has had no failures of any kind.

I do take good care of my cars, but it's the initial quality that stands out.

I note that all of my foreign car owning friends have had their cars back to the dealers for one problem or the other.

They like to brag about quality, but none of them have done as well as my Fords.

reply posted on 19-11-2008 @ 02:17 PM by FoxStriker

reply to post by Desert Dawg

mlowsley and desert dawg,

right on.... its like talking to a wall with these people. I put a thread of my own and only got the same backlash.

www.abovetopsecret.com...'

It's like most people want the world to burn, but no one does the research to see how badly they will be affected if these three go down.

this article on yahoo states what the senators asked the auto executives.

biz.yahoo.com...

"During the House hearing Wednesday, Rep. Brad Sherman, D-Calif., asked the three auto chiefs seated at the witness table before him to raise their hands if they had come to Washington on commercial airliners. No hands went up. Then he asked if any planned to sell their corporate jets. Again, no hands went up."

WTF!!! are they seriously asking these questions to them, what about their bank buddies, how come they havent asked them similar questions.

These are real people with families here in the united states, i thought about 1/8 of people in the united states are someway associated or work in an industry that will be affected if these auto giants go down

reply posted on 19-11-2008 @ 02:44 PM by sos37

The Democrats are now setting expectations lower.

www.msnbc.msn.com...

Check this out from that story:

During a hearing Wednesday before the House Financial Services Committee, Rep. Brad Sherman, D-Calif., asked the three auto chiefs seated at the witness table before him to raise their hands if they had come to Washington on commercial airliners. No hands went up. Then he asked if any planned to sell their corporate jets. Again, no hands went up.

Sherman and Rep. Gary Ackerman, D-N.Y., told the auto executives they were having a hard time justifying to their constituents bailing out companies whose chiefs fly around in expensive private jets.

Ackerman said there was "a delicious irony in seeing private jets flying into Washington D.C. and people coming off them with tin cups in their hands."

The gaul of these men and women is simply amazing! It's clear that if they get a bailout it'll be business as usual and that $25 billion will be gone before you know it. It's not going to save them because, as indicated in the hands up question above, no one is willing to change!!!

reply posted on 19-11-2008 @ 02:56 PM by FoxStriker

reply to post by sos37

Where similar questions asked to the Bankers? No

Are they regulating the money given to the Banks? No, in fact little to no money has trickled down to the homeowners in need of it, or to losen up the Credit Crunch.

Is going to be business as usual? No, please read last three post, and links.

It seems to be getting to the point where there is a hidden agenda regarding letting the big 3 drown.

reply posted on 19-11-2008 @ 03:09 PM by sos37

Originally posted by FoxStriker
reply to post by sos37

Where similar questions asked to the Bankers? No

Are they regulating the money given to the Banks? No, in fact little to no money has trickled down to the homeowners in need of it, or to losen up the Credit Crunch.

Is going to be business as usual? No, please read last three post, and links.

It seems to be getting to the point where there is a hidden agenda regarding letting the big 3 drown.

Read the posted link. There's no hidden agenda - some politicians don't want to hand out money to people who have so far demonstrated that they have yet to change their business practices, even to the point of transportation to and from Capitol Hill!

reply posted on 19-11-2008 @ 03:17 PM by HunkaHunka

As I have mentioned before there are two problems:

1. Big 3 automakers now have to pay for their blind allegiance to Big Oil. So be it, let them go bankrupt.

2. The people who work for the Big3 will all be laid off, causing a serious ripple effect through the economy at large.

I'm all for working toward figuring out a way to deal with problem #2.

However, Problem number 1 is honestly, not the tax payers problem.

Let's have some accountability for goodness sake.

reply posted on 19-11-2008 @ 03:22 PM by sos37

reply to post by HunkaHunka

At least we agree on that. The whole point of resisting the bailout in the first place was to hold the bankers accountable. The heads of the big three just made statements to the effect saying they don't expect to be held accountable but they do want this money.

reply posted on 19-11-2008 @ 03:49 PM by mybigunit

I will say this it just bugs the hell out of me that the bankers got a bailout. I think neither of them should get a bailout. Honestly though if there was a bailout to be had and I had a gun to my head and had to choose who to bail out it would be the auto makers before I would the bankers. The money these guys pull down on the backs of hard working Americans is disgusting. You think that a $9 Million dollar payday is nice for a GM CEO try hundreds of millions for some of these very banks that drug us into this mess. They all for sure need to fail and should get no bailout but man if I had to choose and I do understand the crap that the big three is putting out I still would choose bailing them out.

reply posted on 19-11-2008 @ 03:55 PM by warrenb

the Canadians just gave the go ahead to bailout GM and the others in Canada. Sad sad sad.

www.iht.com...

reply posted on 9-12-2008 @ 02:38 AM by TH3ON3

Let's face facts.

Fact: If they don't bail out the big 3 the economy gets much worse.

Fact: It really isn't a good move in the long run for the health of the dollar and the natural capitalism business model.

Fact: The working middle class have over bought into the false American dream that says everyone can have a $250,000 house and two luxury suv's sitting in the driveway.

Fact: The ones that actually worked hard and spent within their means are not the ones causing the problems...They are the real backbone of our nation! yet if they ever get in trouble they are never bailed out.

Fact: We are in big trouble financially, and no amount of well meaning, but misguided money bailout's will be able to stop the ultimate conclusion...a deep depression.

It will only forestall it for a short time, and when it does implode it will be drastic and things will get ugly real quick.

reply posted on 11-12-2008 @ 08:14 PM by aquiesce

I come from a military family with about 40% of relatives that worked for GM, or are working for GM and some have retired. I used to be a big fan of the union, hey, the union was taking care of all workers, right?

Actually, the big inflated beast( union) ha, people retiring at many thousands of dollars a month with full benefits, such as medical and bonuses, then they complain because their prescription drugs have to be ordered over the phone or on line and there is a little copay .
Sorry to say, these folks are spoiled beyond anyone's understanding and the company is not competitive at all.....let them go down and restructure as the airlines had to do.

reply posted on 11-12-2008 @ 08:53 PM by RetinoidReceptor

I think it is ironic that Republicans have no problem spending 10 billion a month in Iraq to rebuild Iraqi infrastructure and they have a problem with bailing out Detroit.

reply posted on 11-12-2008 @ 08:57 PM by RetinoidReceptor