Grey Aliens, Insects and Disinformation

reply to post by invisiblewoman


The reason why an insect can continue to walk around without a head is because it has a decentralized nervous system. This doesn't mean it actually thinks, but that it can still maneuver based on external stimuli. Without sensory information from the larger sense organs (antenna, eyes, etc), you'll notice that it's movement are erratic and undirected.

Insect Legs aren't controlled by a central nervous system

An insect, when moving its six legs, has to control 18 joints, three per leg, and therefore has to control 18 degrees of freedom (d.f.). As the body position in space is determined by 6 d.f. only, there are 12 d.f. open to be selected. Therefore, a fundamental problem is as to how these extra d.f. are controlled. Based mainly on behavioural experiments and simulation studies, but also including neurophysiological results, the following control structures have been revealed. Legs act as basically independent systems. The quasi-rhythmic movement of the individual leg can be described to result from a structure that exploits mechanical coupling of the legs via the ground and the body.

Further, insects don't think with a hive mind. You're mistaking emergent behavior with a conscious direction. A termite isn't following instructions when it builds highly complex mud structures, but simply following some very basic stimuli individual to that particular insect (even if stimuli comes from scent or movements of other insects). In this way, the actions of insects building a hive is not so much different in causation than the flocking/schooling patterns of birds or fish. The "Hive Mind" is an illusion because we are used to thinking of top-down organization approaches. However, as we're finding out more and more, bottom-up organization approaches aren't just viable - they seem to be the norm in nature.

[edit on 18-11-2008 by Lasheic]

reply to post by Lasheic


oh sure I know about the decentralized bug nervous system and hive mind but you know bees can communicate quite alot of information to each other by dancing around ,and the cumulative effect LOOKS smart and purposeful


that is why I like the insect solution it explains why greys are so weird,they're bugs they have the motivation of bugs ,bugs just want to extend territory it's all bugs do extend territory make more bugs extend territory

It explains things that I've asked many times in this forum ,why are these 'aliens ' so devoid of compassion and a higher motivation toward good and all the things that make life life to us

reply to post by invisiblewoman

but you know bees can communicate quite alot of information to each other by dancing around ,and the cumulative effect LOOKS smart and purposeful

Oh, they are purposeful and convey a lot of information - but it's not smart. A bee's dance is instinctual and in response to external stimuli. It's not like a Bee has to think about what kind of a dance it has to do to convey this information - it just does it. The other bees don't "recognize" the pattern of the dance, they just take in the stimuli and go. It certainly looks impressive in it's complexity to us, but it's far from any sort of intelligence which is apparently displayed in Aliens.

that is why I like the insect solution it explains why greys are so weird,they're bugs they have the motivation of bugs ,bugs just want to extend territory it's all bugs do extend territory make more bugs extend territory

These behaviors (which do not seem uniform across all alien accounts) can be explained by other means as well, and the insectoid theory has so many holes in it that it cannot possibly fit or be accurate. Even if it does explain some of the evidence, unless it is compatible with all of the evidence, it doesn't work. Whether you like it or not is irrelevant. As Thomas Huxley once remarked: The tragedy of science is the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact.

reply to post by Lasheic


This is true ,I should tell you that I don't necessarily even accept the existence of such things,I'm just having fun thinking about bugs living underground and giving us the creeps


I can have a little fun can't I?

I like to fiddle around with this stuff,it's why I joined

come on humor me

reply to post by invisiblewoman


The problem is that some people actually take this stuff deadly seriously, and it's hard to differentiate between those who actually believe it and those who are just having fun.

Besides, poking holes in speculative and unfounded theories like this is fun for me.

I decided to look into a bit of the chemistry and found this one to be interesting.

2-Phenylethylamine is produced by a beetle, this is the stuff they make all kinds of drugs from including ecstasy, STP, DOI, Amphetamines.

----------------------------------
2-Phenylethylamine
----------------------------------

www.pherobase.com...

www.ent.iastate.edu...

wiki

en.wikipedia.org...

leda.lycaeum.org...


----------------------------------
N,N-dimethyl-2-phenylethanamine
----------------------------------

www.pherobase.com...

en.wikipedia.org...

wiki


[edit on 18-11-2008 by EldersCouncil]

reply to post by Lasheic


hahaha, the same thing happened to me when I first joined and someone posted a hilarious ,but apparently deeply felt post about how a shaman friend of his had astral traveled to Nibiru and killed a Nibirian and oh boy !

no I was all set to have days worth of fun with that,and in like two posts the debunkers had the OP scared off and no more fun for me

I got on and told the debunkers please for the love of Pete will you let me have a little fun before you go squashing the thread


mwahaha

reply to post by Willbert


Everything in regards to grey's is nothing more than hypothesis, I wasn't loling to be rude, until this your just not offering any ideas...

Now Owl's... Owl's are very interesting,

I could do, another entire thread in regards to Owls and the alleged sighting os the Mothmen One of the few other phenomena besides the Grey's I haven't been able to simply explain away... and can't discard entirely as a hoax in my mind from a vantage point of being true.

I kind of scoffed at the "thin" thing, because one of the single phenomena of abductions that I can not find evidence of falsehood from... that they all hae in common

Id being dragged by the Greys,

I've talked to a wide body at this point and...

The ones who come off as either Good Actors to a degree they can..fool a guy who, grew up acting... or just really telling the truth, a commonality is having been dragged not levitated or teleported, but rather dragged often single handedly by the Greys...

I could discount that as, powered armor, even though description doesn't really seem to imply armor, or maybe even go to a Gravity issue from one world to the next IF they were alien (who knows how muscle structure would evolve to deal with higher gravity?) There is Fair Hypothesis in these things.

My first inclination though, in breathing our atmosphere is that they are from HERE, and they are, unless there is another phenomena making a Large number of people beileve something that isn't actually happening to them (which is the other possibility as I see it)

which makes them, unusually Strong for their size... very insect like.


One of the points of this thread... in Hypothesis, is to address those who:

Have not only addressed the issue of "these beings are from earth" But chosen to present their Hypothesis as Fact and make up stories in regards to the scenario, Fictions

And in doing so Chosen a very, highly unlikely branch of evolution as the pick

I can talk about reptiles as well as any other

But in regards to another form of life making the grade and being able to evolve and adapt in comparisson to man nothing else on a biological standpoint besides Humans Holds a candle to Insects

and

There is no denying that at thios point they are and have been for 350 Million years the dominant species on the planet



and please don't let me be taken wrong

I Fully believe in Alien Life

I just don't believe it has gotten here yet

1: There is no indiation or genuine evidence that the craft are anything more than localized

2: there is no indication or evidence of all these species, seriously...beyond fable

3: WE have nothing to indicate faster than light travel, I'm ruling it out in regards to craft being present in our system at this time that can do so for several reasons and all of them are science

The enrgy required to to do this is extreme, it's physics, the amount of energy is...enormous, a species would have to be incredibly advanced, i'm not going into theorys that can't even be tested for 1,000 years like controlling the energy level of a star by 2 beings entrusted with a small craft that can crash and not rupture half a planet. it doesn't make sense in perspective to what we have rports of actually visiting us (IF that is real)

Your talking advanced not only from a perspective of technology... not just to pull the feat off...

But leave no signature usinmg that energy that is obvious and easy to detect, folding space, or generating faster than light level energies,... and Not a ripple!!!! Not a Boom, not anything we'd see

and

consdensing it into a very small craft

and then, trusting at times even individuals of a species with that kind of power

That's personal advancement, we can't even dream of

Imagine trusting, individuals (which we debate handguns in our society)
but rather if every man could have a nuclear weapon

There would be no Earth by Sunday

So that's where people with nothing mot a shread of evidence leap to.... Federations and 54 Aliens, with nothing inbetween

and decide, they are Humanoid, have a similar route of evolution and share our atmospheres, across the galaxy...

and it's insane from a serious perspective of science, that given the diversity fo a trillion worlds, the 54 races, (which and I here i have to LOL) who told them lol...the people who portray these things, THye were Handed this knowledge, I mean please... it's always at that point, some individual who for some reason was trusted above all others to be given this knowledge and that screams MADE UP...

Not just made up, but it is top 10 list of Bad SCIENCE FICTION, let alone... Science

If there are aliens, the odds of similar genetics, similar atmosphere,, similar appearance, similar gravity become astronomical

and I will not say impossible, but then for of all other life, to find us first, and be part of 54 (a very specific number) of other species visiting us, is so out there, so far gone in thought it has to be bs stories being told

add to that, for all abductions and sightings and people I talk to, I can't confirm, in belief even ONE other species that uses craft beyond the greys and get a serious interview


But... a Large species of Owl that has a rudimentary Intelligence... that might be real

reply to post by Lasheic


Good work!

I would explain it in that anything evolved from our planet can share DNA it's similar enough, working with what we know (not saying it's impossible with alien dna) But it strikes me as highly likely anything interested i our genetics if far more likely to be from Earth, it is, a very improbable thing that Dna develops the same way everywhere.

We can mix dna with plants let alone insects it's not far fetched

One thing I have noticed in respect to abductions stories (admittedly the few I have in my possession where the victim retains memory of the on board experience.

Is a constant in another creature over seeing the Grey's, and, descriptive of that creature is horrifying, very insect like multiple legs etc, etc

when it comes to the Grey's, I think, they are some kind of drone... a fabrication, done by genetics...

There is Insect proof of this in nature, particularly the Parasitic Wasps, who... Paralyze their victims in much the same way that the Grey's paralyze us then insert their offspring who can then...control the mind and behavior of the host from the inside

It is not a very dramatic evolutionary leap to

take that control up a notch to a place where, the host then reproduces hybrids, it's a single step from hatching the young to hatching young that... resemble the host...

and it wouldn't require advanced technology it could simply happen in nature....

The scenario I will provide is gruesome, but please entertain it:


Sometime, long ago, a variety of Insect, I'm guessing a parasitic termite chose as the wasp, to provide food for it's young in the manner of the parasitic Wasp... but it had an entire colony to feed

So it uses the mechanism, to start "abducting" larger creatures than Giant spiders and the like...

It goes after Mammals eventually... stings, them and after paralysis they wake up and head to the hive for consumption by the Termite nest.

In time, the usefulness of this becomes apparent, the ability to control the creatures like anything else within a social Insects becomes associated with tasks, maybe defense of the nest, it would be nice to have a parasite driven Bear guarding the nest, when it outlives it's usefulness it becomes food...

But, drones are valuable, the only ones that fly sometimes get killed stinging new victims... The next step up, is, reproducing the hives genetics... I.e. the female Bear, doesn't become just a zombie for the Insects but it reproduces, more Bears for the Hive, Mixed termite Bears

Your saying Far fetched

But here is the full Theory

A: the parasitic wasp does this to tarantulas everyday

B:in the begging of the thread I provide links to a species of Mollusk that, uses a Crab, a much more complicated organism as... a Reproductive facility, it not only takes over the mind of the crab, it uses it to reproduce endless amounts of it's young...

so this whole process exists in Nature, with dna that is associated with us in terms of life on this world...


What I propose to explain a Grey, is that somewhere a long time ago, an Early man, perhaps seeking shelter in a cave during the last Ice age, encountered these parasitic termites and, once controlled from within by the Larvae started spitting Greys out of it's uterus.

Now here's where, it get's interesting... because those larvae, although controlled by a non intelligent hive is none the less controlled Yet, still posses an Intelligence...

Thus suddenly, in a day, you have something NEW, an Intelligent drone cast, not after 2 Million years of evolution but in a single year after taking it's first human host over...


What we would need is real evidence, fossil evidence wont do

Because termites have an annoying habit... of drying out the Dead and feeding them to their young














[edit on 19-11-2008 by mopusvindictus]

reply to post by mopusvindictus


I'm your side I think the bug thing is awesome ,I still don't know if I accept the existence of such a thing but if it is there, I'm with you in assuming it is Earth life and bugs are a good pick.


It fullfills alot of criteria ,and I'm having a blast thinking about this ,I know you mentioned in the thread somewhere that you are developing this idea for a movie ,so if it gets made watch out it's going to scare the crap out of people


Me included I hate bugs,well maybe not all of them I used to raise Australian Giant Stick Bugs ,those things are awesome so cute in a creepy gross bug way

See bugs can live in all kinds of environments and don't even need the same kinds of atmosphere as us,and I can see how some of the metamorphosis
and developmental changes bugs go thru could supply all kinds of alien type sitings weird and cool and now I don't know what to think I want to call the Orkin Man and have him make them go away,but I honestly think that right now the government and their let's enslave the whole human race thing is taking up far to much of my brain ,I want to get rid of them and then hunt the bugs .do you think the bugs are controlling their brains I mean if they are do they mean too in the sense that maybe we would if we did the same thing?

I guess what I'm saying is if they're bugs they aren't intelligent in the same self aware way that we are and they don't or wouldn't have an agenda like we would,so whatever effects they have on us apart from just simply chemical mind control is incidental and some effects are not conscious on their part . Does that make sense

I don't think I can go far enough to think that a cavewoman can give birth to independent living bug children,all parasites live in their hosts , or feed off the host as in paralyzing wasps and such,but not hybridizing chimera like through some kind of sex I think that kind of thing would require micro biological laboratory gene splicing.


I don't think the bugs are that smart. I think their adaptations make them appear smart. I know I've had pet Praying Mantis that I was sure loved me
I know there is way more to bugs than we like to think


So tell me more about the cavewoman what am I missing

reply to post by mopusvindictus


Er... you might not want to pimp the science angle too much. Especially when nothing you've said here thus far has even the slightest hint of anything to actually do with science. Indeed, you're working the complete opposite path, more in line with religion. You have a conclusion and are trying to fit it with facts to support it - rather than following the facts to whatever conclusion it may lead.

The fact is, however, that Grey Aliens do not exist. At least, there is no reliable or demonstrable evidence to support this claim. Even under the assumption that they are real, what we do have of them (photographs, drawings, descriptions) of their basic outward morphology reveals that they are closest to what we'd call primates. Hominids, specifically, and as such would represent humanity's closest sister species on this criteria - barring genetic testing to exactly place them on the tree of heredity or a much more detailed inspection of their anatomy and embryology.

Also... insects are not the dominant species on this planet. Bacteria are, far and away, the most successful, most prolific, and most diverse forms of life on this planet. Period.

As for evolution following similar paths in similar circumstances - remember that evolution is not a random process. Mutations are random, but the selector (the environment) is not. Selection is deterministic - so it doesn't really matter what random mutations occur - if the environment only selects for certain traits, then those mutations will not succeed. Only the ones which best adapt the organism to the environment will.

Carbon is the most prolific life building chemical in the universe (we even find it on comets from the Oort cloud at the outskirts of our solar system) - so it's reasonable to assume that most life we may encounter in space will be carbon based. Current theories of Abiogenesis suggest that life first originated from RNA molecules which formed in and then became trapped within lipid vessicles near hydrothermal vents. So any planet with a substantial source of water and that is geologically active could produce the same basic organic structures. From there, other developments which occured on Earth are likely to occur in their life as well. Multicellular life, digestive tracts, bilateral symmetry, spinal cords, etc. If life starts in their oceans, then it's likely that their earliest life will resemble fish and crustations that developed in our early oceans. This sort of thing is seen all over in our own animal kingdom. Birds, Insects, and Mammals are pretty far removed from one another on the evolutionary tree - but all of them have adapted to Earth's substantial atmosphere by developing flight. Bats, Sparrows, and Bees do not get their flight from a common ancestor - but from a non-random selection process acting on random mutations to adapt them all to a similar environment.

I simply don't see why this wouldn't hold true to some degree on other Earth-like planets which harbor life as well. The idea that alien life would be so completely dissimilar to life as we know it is about as absurd to me as those old Star Trek episodes where they'd run across a civilization which exactly resembled 1920's Earth - right down to the guns and fashion of the day.

reply to post by invisiblewoman


Several of you address the nostril issue, so I will reply to all in one post


The Brain does indeed use allot of oxygen, the Human brain

Termites however are for more efficient creatures as are all the social Insects.

a Single Ant can live for 2 weeks without Oxygen, which is amazing, or course it's not carrying our brain mass, but in comparison it functions at around a 12-1 ratio in regards to utilization of the oxygen it does intake, it's entire system is designed better in regards to energy use as a whole, it uses almost hydraulics in replacement of muscle and even it's brain is wired for a minimal use of resources better

the Termite in scale, via bacteria in digestion has 1/5th of the carbon signature of a cow and can even produce hydrogen in digesting cellulose

The reality is, in scale to size, even given human genetics in a hybrid, you would be dealing with 3-4 x a better use of Oxygen and 1/5th our Carbon Footprint

and I would dare say, any social insects thinking is reduced to needed thinking, the human imagination keeps our clock ticking night and day and dreaming when we don't. I would offer a doubt that, an Insect or Insect hybrid would... be thinking as much and when it did, it's not human ADD thinking but right to the point... in such, not wasting energy in thought process either maybe it could indeed remain even with a large brain a 12-1 ratio of oxygen use

Which would allow for the Grey's, very small nostrils, IF they still take in oxygen through the skin or other small unapparent openings like an Insect

the volume of oxygen could compare to our own with the same 1-12 ratio and, it would explain that seeming strength and energy

Without being an actual entomologist, I do know, the Insect overall is vastly more fuel efficient than a human being

like comparing a new battery powered car to a 57 Chevy

reply to post by Lasheic


And... it would be another thread...

All I can say is I have interviewed many abduction victims and... some BELIEVE, Many in fact

I am looking to explain a reality to this and find answers

BUT

That the whole phenomena is entirely Psychological is POSSIBLE

Here's the funny thing though,

As best as I have researched sleep Paralysis, and understand it... the closets theory I have to the cause, also, comes down to Insects

I wasn't going to go here, but since brought up

Asthma is a known reaction to many insect allergies, including:

Roach Feces

The entire phenomena of abduction may come down to a paralysis induced by reaction to insect chemicals

Either

A: a simple allergic reaction

or

B: Some sort of odd, psychological hallucination that can occur when our brain subtly is processing their pheromones

and I have wondered that perhaps there are NO large Greys but rather the insects themselves are attempting communication with us (which I know is a bit out there)

But, Intelligence as a Hive is different than our own... BUT, Intelligence none the less and, it is hard to say that brain Size matters for sure, when we know, the folds in a brain determine actual intelligence, in theory, you could squeeze allot more brain into a very small space, ALLOT more

But that aside... it just, if it is only a paralytic reaction to Insect Allergens

the commonality of the Aliens with Insect heads is still, extremely interesting as a common hallucination, I would lean to, some how, our brains are processing their pheromone signals and manifesting that image if that was the case...


and here is the thing...

The Commonality in those (and I honestly would be one of those people) who have broken sleep paralysis via will (or one of the biggest)

would be the presence of:

Octopamine

Octopamine is not uncommon in body builder supplements

and injected, it can revive an insect from... the sleep Paralysis of a Wasp... INSTANTLY

I have found a definitive correlation in Sleep Paralysis to the presence in the home of various Insects, particularly roaches and termites

and those who can break the Paralysis as having indications of having natural amounts of Octopamine in their bodies as exhibited by characteristics of person or actually having been on the substance


At that, i would almost be ready to say... SOLVED given scientific study

BUT

The commonality, of the beings with the Roach Heads appearing when Under Paralysis says: There Is Something More to This Than an Allergic Reaction

But this is why I say, IF there are full sized Greys, They don't get into your home, their nasty little brethren get you first....

reply to post by Lasheic


Your right in all your saying.

I just don't know that it is Fair to use the word ILLUSION

It's just Different

The Hive in it's own right would represent a Mind, just as our brain is composed of Billions of Communicating Cells, the Hive can be Trillions of interacting Neurons...

It's Yet another angle on how there could be intelligence behind a hive,

If you put together billions of creatures each capable of processing hundreds of different...maybe unlimited different pheromone signals and chemical combinations, you very well could evolve a genuine form of hive MIND

might not think like us, but very well could be Intelligent

There could be hives in the Earth that are literally Minds and are capable of signaling genetic changes from the queen at will and making very complicated steps and reacting to mans pressence, this too could account for beings such as the Greys a defense measure against a species on the surface that.... does indeed threaten life on earth and wage bio chemical war against insects

The presence could be a REACTION, to us

again I bring out the fact that modern abductions stories begin... after we invent and test and use the A-Bomb

i have alot of responses for this theory!

i was considering the honey bee. the average drone has this complex life, all supposedly programmed into its dna before it's even borne. some of the things it can do with that tiny brain... really quite incredible. how it could happen by random chance, is even more incredible.

next up, i started thinking about nanotechnology. as miniaturization enters the realm of the subatomic particle, it dawned on me that perhaps there are even smaller things than subatomic particles and quarks, that we've yet to discover and/or correctly recognize. we would have no clue of their existence, and they could operate in our vicinity without us being any the wiser.

this idea was spawned while watching a line of the tiniest ants i have ever seen, marching across my bathroom floor. had they been any smaller, i would not have seen them at all. this is when i considered that honey bee again and wondered if perhaps our understanding of intelligence storage requirements is flawed. cause if you think about it, the computer chip just gets smaller and smaller, as well, and yet holds greater and greater memory capacity.

believing we are the penultimate of all creation everywhere, leads to assumptions that perhaps are not correct or even logical.

next up, is your issue regarding star gates. i put together the clues for the possibility of star gates, in quite the same way as you have, but i also have evidences that may or may not be immediately apparent to the casual researcher. i seriously believe there was a star gate, in fact, seven of them, scattered through out the ancient world. i don't think they are doorways to the space underground. to believe it is that simple would require also ignoring the rest of the evidences. i do believe, if you want to seriously consider such topics you can't leave any detail out. you have to consider all the data. and if you decide something is incorrectly translated or stated, offer a feasible reason. for example...

the sumerian enki's abzu (gate) was connected to the field constellation.

i also have images from the ancient past which depict greys and reptilians. if you'd like, i'll share them here. also, there are reports of some greys have scaly skin, not always mammalian smooth.

reply to post by Lasheic


You have yet to poke a hole I can not answer my friend.

But I give you this, you actually are... poking holes that are worthy of answering

Somewhere in all of this is truth... sharpest thing you said yet was that it might be all psychological and... I'll be interested tomorrow to read your response to this

and remember please, debunking is to Strengthen theories, I'm sorry but... Insects are the closest real world possibility, the next leap goes into pure speculation and no science that can be found in terms of, galactic civilizations with zero proof and no mechanism of testing

We must seriously consider all possibilities of life on Earth first to entertain this subject matter

when we rule it out...and genuinely can rule it out with no explanation, then you can say debunked

Until then your not even close

But I commend your thinking btw

oooh boy! this is gonna be a big response.
i just know it!

reply to post by undo


Agreed in regards to miniaturization and, as I just posted above the concept of a collective mind is also hard for people to fathom but real none the less.

There is something to be said that... the Grey could be small and we are led to think of them as large by mental influence only, there could be truly intelligent insects even as individuals, it exists as a possibility

Certainly the numeracy of that kind of genetic variation exists

Think about the FRIGHT here

Lets discard for a Moment ALL my theories of the Greys

There are TRILLIONS of Insects, constantly adapting indeed we have put via our actions, extreme pressure on these creatures as a legitimate Enemy

IF an Insect or social Insect even a singular Queen or Individual of a species were to evolve miniaturization of Intelligence... Tomorrow,

In 30 days, there would be Billions of Intelligent Insects, given their natural genetic abilities, there really is no speculating on exactly what they could potentially accomplish and how fast

and as you point out, nature could do this, nano tech proves it, if we can do it, nature can too, it's not impossible

That a single hive either individually or collectively that gathers an intelligence, could simply out pace us in a matter of weeks or months


as far as star gates, I think it would be another thread

My only real stance on the subject is not impossibility, nor that it has Never been done or can't be...

Only that the technology is sooooooo advanced of where we are that I see no reason for such a species to care about Earth

I'd be interested in being convinced of course from a perspective of science as to how it might be possible and to do it quietly...

it was here in the ancient world. not our tech.
enki's Sumerian abzu is later called Bab(el) during early Babylon, and ka.dingir.ra during akkad (ka.dingir.ra, etymology=gate of Eden). and if you know your old testament, i'll just let you ruminate on that one for awhile!

in the epic of Gilgamesh, he makes reference to his mortal predicament. even though he was a hybrid (2/3rds god it says), he had not inherited the immortality of his god progenitors (the scientists who tinkered with him after he was already born a normal human... like the six million dollar man goes to akkad!). it really hits home when he sees the worm crawl out of the nose of his clone, Enkidu, after Enkidu's untimely death. so he sets off on a gate journey to some far away land, called paradise, to see if he can learn the secret of immortality from his human predecessor who had been granted immortality by the gods after building a wooden boat to escape a catastrophic flood. (seems to be the biblical noah, making gilgamesh the biblical nimrod).

anyway, when he gets to the gate, it's being protected by two scorpion men, they are called. now skip forward to revelation chapter 9. read it, and consider the bottomless pit is not a pit at all, it's an abyss, which is the etymological descendant of abzu (gate).