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The Christians hating gays contradiction

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posted on Nov, 13 2008 @ 06:54 PM
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I'll try to make this as short as possible, here's my line of thought.



  1. Homosexuals exist
  2. There is a genetic factor to homosexuality
  3. Like all of us, the genetic factor influences their personal and social feelings
  4. God creates everything and everyone
  5. God does not create people who are pre-damned, or already bound for hell upon birth due to free will
  6. Homosexuals exist
  7. To those who say 'change them', is like asking a straight person to change to gay, their genetic feelings and direction are based on the same chemical principles as gays
  8. God doesn't hate gays, damn them to hell, or care what they do because He created them as such
  9. ...so why in the Lords name do some Christians use God and the Bible to discriminate and hate on homosexuals??


That's pretty much it. My questions to those who are Christian and against gays are these...



  1. Do you not believe in a genetic basis?
  2. Do you believe God creates people pre-damned?
  3. Do you feel God gives you the right to judge?
  4. Do you feel God hates gays, or anyone for that matter?


The way I see it, God is more concerned about how we treat each other than us going against Him. The commandments and other important lessons are based around us getting along and everyone experiencing a happy, peaceful time (I know wars and such were fought in His name but I don't believe men are above saying God told them to do such things, but that's another discussion).

To say God feels gays are an abomination to His work is like a child complaining to us that we aren't doing it right. Homosexuals do not cause Him, Christians, non-Christians, or themselves any harm. They can be Christians as well, it's not as if they are bathing in blood chanting Satans name or something. I don't understand how Christians can see God as being so hateful.

I know there is a verse which says men shouldn't lay with men or something, but I personally don't agree with it. I think parts of the Bible like this are the work of men. I find it hard to believe that every rule in Exodus was God reciting his list to whoever wrote it. "Ok now, if you steal food, thats going to be 5 oxen that must be repaid.... hmmn, no wait, better make that 10." I know that's my personal belief, but I think we should attempt to recognize how the greedy hands of men have been laid upon the book.

Oh and for the record I'm a straight, semi-Christian (I believe in the positive God in the Bible, don't take it literally, and a strong believer in science).



+4 more 
posted on Nov, 13 2008 @ 07:37 PM
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reply to post by Parabol
 


This adds to another point. Man, and I mean that specifically, created the Bible. The Bible's chauvinism is blatant throughout the entirety of the texts. It's quite sad that people still live by this racist, sexist, piece of fiction that plagues humanity.



I think parts of the Bible like this are the work of men.


The entire Bible is the work of man. Whether inspired by the 'word of God', also known as 'voices in your head', or through their own free will. God himself said we are imperfect sinners. You don't think we could screw up a few words? The Bible also says that 'nothing shall be taken or added to or from the Bible' (paraphrased). This is contradictory considering there are over 5,000 mistranslations in the King James version from the original Hebrew version.

I read somewhere that the homosexual portion was a mistranslation also.

I agree with your view on the anti-homosexual view of the Bible. People have yet to see why this book is holding us back. In this day and age, prejudice and discrimination seems so immature to me, for us as a race. It's depressing to think people still discriminate because they've read in a book that 'God' has told them that being a certain way is a bad thing.


The original poster also brings up a very good point, but easily countered by "being gay is a choice," which I think is somewhere close to being disproved. I've read that they have discovered the 'gay' gene?

In conclusion, the Bible inspires prejudice and discrimination. It is unfair to pick and chose. Semi-Christian is a term I cringe at because that is just plain unfair in my opinion. Say, you like what morality the Bible has to offer, but the metaphysical claims are quite unprovable and somewhat ignorant. Then I would hold a bit more respect for you. I am not saying that I do not respect you, I am just not a fan of fence-sitters.


Edit : Star and Flagged.



[edit on 13-11-2008 by panda319]



posted on Nov, 13 2008 @ 07:39 PM
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Great post and thread Parabol


I much look forward to seeing how this evolves. Hopefully we will have some genuine well-articulated responses from the Christians (Religious in general) here on ATS.

I for one believe in a Creator God who is an omnipotent and omnipresent force of Love. Because I recognize homosexual orientation as born, I believe it was created and is loved by God.

Cheers,
a fellow 'semi-Christian', and fellow Tool fan



posted on Nov, 13 2008 @ 07:56 PM
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reply to post by Parabol
 


As far as I understood "christians hating" by itself was a contradiction, you know all that "Love your neighbour, love you enemies" yadayada.



posted on Nov, 13 2008 @ 07:57 PM
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i dont hate gays, also i dont believe homosexuality is predeturmined or genetic they choose to be gay, i choose to be hetrosexual, gays want to do everything their own way and not take responsibility for their actions.

evolution wise and in terms of continuity of the speices homosexuality is a dead end street.

i cant remember where in the bible i read it, but i saw a passage that stated that "God Hates homosexual activity" i found this to be rather profound because up untill then i didnt believe god would hate anything his creations do, saddened perhaps but not hate. and i would like to reiterate that it doesnt say god hates gays, he/she hates the behaviour, theres a difference.

sex is supposed to be for procreation to continue the species, but it has been twisted and corrupted by things like pornography, prostitution and homosexuality (men and women).

so in essence what the gay community are trying to get everyone to accept is a corruption of whats supposed to be a beautiful moment where a man and a women create life to some perverse act.

now looking at it from a purely phisical standpoint the rectum wasnt designed to be penetrated in such a way if homosexuality was supposed to be normal it would have been designed as such to accomodate such activities.

lastly i feel if 2 people of the same sex generally do love each other in that way thats fine, what they do in their own homes is their business, but trying to force acceptance of such behaviour on the rest of the community is wrong and in time its going to be something they will have to accept.

by claiming homosexuality is predeturmined or genetic is just the gay communities way of trying to shift responsibility from themselves in an attempt to gain acceptance in the main stream of society.

from a study done by Dr. Francis S. Collins, Head Of The Human Genome Project



Estimates of heritability are based upon careful analyses of studies conducted with identical twins. Such studies are important and lead to the conclusion that heredity is important in many of these traits. It is important however, to note that even in such studies with identical twins, that heritability is not to be confused as inevitability.

As Dr. Collins would agree, environment can influence gene expression, and free will determines the response to whatever predispositions might be present.

Dr. Collins succinctly reviewed the research on homosexuality and offers the following: "An area of particularly strong public interest is the genetic basis of homosexuality. Evidence from twin studies does in fact support the conclusion that heritable factors play a role in male homosexuality. However, the likelihood that the identical twin of a homosexual male will also be gay is about 20% (compared with 2-4 percent of males in the general population), indicating that sexual orientation is genetically influenced but not hardwired by DNA, and that whatever genes are involved represent predispositions, not predeterminations."

Dr. Collins noted that environment, particularly childhood experiences as well as the role of free will choices affect all of us in profound ways. As researchers discover increasing levels of molecular detail about inherited factors that underlie our personalities, it's critical that such data be used to illuminate, not provide support to idealogues.

Citing such dangers, Dr. Collins referred to the book written by activist Dean Hamer who declared the discovery of the God Gene (this same author also is associated with "discovering the gay gene").

Dr. Collins noted that the "evidence" in Hamer's book "grabbed headlines," but was "wildly overstated."


Homosexuality is not hard wired



posted on Nov, 13 2008 @ 08:01 PM
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The title is misleading. Christians do not/should not hate gays. Like God, hate the sin. Not the sinner. Agree or not, I'm just pointing that out.



posted on Nov, 13 2008 @ 08:08 PM
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reply to post by Parabol
 


You make the mistake that many make. First of all, for Christians, we believe that our God never changes. He can never tolerate or even be in the presence of evil. Thus, his Son came to enable forgiveness for those who would obey to the best of their ability.

We find that God Himself states that lying with animals, or men lying with men is an abomination. Christians didn't come up with that - they only reflect that which their Creator has already determined.

That isn't judgment of others. It's acknowlegement of a state of abomination as determined by the only One whose opinion counts.

Folks have free will, and they can elect to engage in any activity that civil law allows. Their choice.

You don't have to like His rules, you don't have to follow them. You don't even have to believe in a God. Doesn't change a thing.

Uzzah (spelling?) when the oxen stumbled while transporting the Ark put out his hand to steady the Ark, and was struck dead. His offense? He didn't obey, as all were warned not to touch it. Oh, he had good intentions, but he disobeyed, and his disobedience brought an immediate punishment.

Moses, even after all his effort, for all those years in leading his people to the Promised Land, was prohibited entry. His offense? Disobedience.

In fact, it would appear to me that the entire Old Testament could be summed up in one word: obedience.

His house, His rules, and our preferences and justifications faze Him not one bit.

Christians, or practicing Christians, only reflect the laws and behavior standards that were installed by their God.

You believe it or not.

Your choice.

Always your choice.





[edit on 13-11-2008 by dooper]



posted on Nov, 13 2008 @ 08:32 PM
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Pleas read and consider...


Originally posted by *Christian member*.
Both the Bible and the Koran forbid homosexuality. If a Christian is obedient to the scriptures, he 'hates what God hates'.



The objections I see here are directed toward Christians who actually maintain some sort of integrity toward the scriptures. The atrocities and so on that are cited (as if homosexuals committed none of their own) as "Christian" in nature, actually violated the principles and the specifics of scripture. No matter what they call themselves, these are not Christians - because they do not act like the Christ did. They are just as Christian as a Lesbian who only sleeps with men ... but calls herself 'lesbian' and attends 'lesbian' events.



The worlds two major religions (Christianity is one of the major ones) abhor homosexuality and consider it worthy of death. That is the current against which homosexuals swim.



Yes, "God is love". But he is also "Justice and Power". He said that men should not lie with men ... and that is in keeping with the instructions at Genesis to fill the earth. But there is also the element of justice toward those who keep his commandments buy keeping his promise to rid the earth of those who don't.



And, if Jericho, Sodom, Gomorrah. and the ruins at Babylon and the second temple at Jerusalem are any indication, he is also possessed of the power to make good on his word. Just look at Babylon. Saddam Hussein is not the first to try to rebuild it.



Your 'cause' (homosexual tolerance) is in opposition to the expressed will of God. First in the Hebrew scriptures, repeated in the Greek scriptures and copied in the Koran. Are you still amazed that you find opposition? You place your will in opposition to God's will ... as did Nimrod (Genesis 10:8-10)


So according to this Christian.

God hates homosexuals. God will destroy homosexuals. Christians should also hate homosexuals, and it would be God's Will for them to do so.

The fact of the matter is, many Christians express views that mirror this idea of Christianity. On ATS, and outside of ATS.

So... what say you? He's not a Christian?

I posted on another thread that there is 30,000+ thousand denominations of Christianity. Many Christians (at least ones that call themselves this and attend Churches that call themselves this) believe a Christian should hate homosexuals. I see this all the time personally.

**edited to add: I also see love and compassion from some Christians.

[edit on 13-11-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]



posted on Nov, 13 2008 @ 08:40 PM
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reply to post by dooper
 



We find that God Himself states that lying with animals, or men lying with men is an abomination. Christians didn't come up with that - they only reflect that which their Creator has already determined.


It's a book with many human authors, therefore it's man's rules, not Gods.



posted on Nov, 13 2008 @ 08:57 PM
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Your arguement is absed on an idea that can't be proven...

"Homosexuality is genetic."

You will find scientists on both sides.

That being said...Christians are not any more monolthic then the African-Americans or any other "group." Stop with your veiled accusations of "Christians."

If you believe that being Gay is genetic then your arguement is true. God does not make people born o be damned.

Oops...slight flaw in your theory. Hitler/Pol Pot/ Dahmer. Are they genteically designed to be "bad?"

God makes a person. The journey you choose in life is yours. Free will.

That is why there is heaven and hell, for those who choose their direction. Follow Gods teachings and you are good to go. Ignore them at your peril.

If you believe in that kind of thing.



posted on Nov, 13 2008 @ 08:58 PM
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so in essence what the gay community are trying to get everyone to accept is a corruption of whats supposed to be a beautiful moment where a man and a women create life to some perverse act.

now looking at it from a purely phisical standpoint the rectum wasnt designed to be penetrated in such a way if homosexuality was supposed to be normal it would have been designed as such to accomodate such activities.


Don't some straight people (just like some gay people, not all) enjoy anal sex? Some of them sure do, there's a scene from the movie American Beauty that shows that off the top of my head. Of course, you don't hear people talking about the “sinful nature” of that act when straight people do it, do you? What about oral sex, last I checked from a “purely phisical standpoint” the mouth wasn’t designed to be penetrated in such a way either. Straight people and gay people both seem to enjoy that activity. Most will do it sometime in their life, but they wouldn’t give it a second thought if they did oral, even when it isn’t desinged to be used for sexual pleasure. What makes these people any better than these homosexuals they cast down? It feels good, so people would do it. Easy to apply rules to others and not follow them yourself isn’t it? Go on and enjoy your delusions just like every other bigot.

What it comes down to is hypocritical people that pick and choose these arguements whenever it’s convenient in their anti-gay stance, and they care nothing at all about what their fellow straights do, even if they are the same actions as the homosexuals. Get a grip.


[edit on 13-11-2008 by ghaleon12]



posted on Nov, 13 2008 @ 09:01 PM
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reply to post by ghaleon12
 


Christians don't condone fornication, adultery or homosexuality.

BTW, I've been married for almost 14 years and we have never done that.



posted on Nov, 13 2008 @ 09:04 PM
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Originally posted by Clearskies
BTW, I've been married for almost 14 years and we have never done that.


Yea, because that proves something.



posted on Nov, 13 2008 @ 09:06 PM
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reply to post by crmanager
 


The Gay Community says they were born gay.

The overwhelming majority of non-Christian heterosexual believe homosexuals are born this way.

It may or may not be genetic. But it is 'natural', in that it was produced by nature. 30 million plus people saying it is so does indeed constitute as evidence by the way. * evidence being different then proof*



posted on Nov, 13 2008 @ 09:08 PM
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Millions of heterosexuals engage in anal sex.

Ugh, the anal sex argument is asinine. no pun intended!



posted on Nov, 13 2008 @ 09:09 PM
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reply to post by Lucid Lunacy
 


None of these christians are ever going to believe that it's natural and/or gays are born that way. They can't it's a contradiction pretty much.



posted on Nov, 13 2008 @ 09:10 PM
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reply to post by Lucid Lunacy
 


Simply false statement.

Cancer/Leprosy/Downs were all naturally produced in nature.

All are deemed harmful and all are having cures developed.



posted on Nov, 13 2008 @ 09:13 PM
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Hate the sin but not the sinner.

I hate heterosexuality. I hate the heterosexual orientation.





*I don't hate it at all. I am just flipping the coin over.



posted on Nov, 13 2008 @ 09:13 PM
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First of all, the OP approaches this conversation with a FALSE ASSUMPTION which he needs to do more research on (Don't worry, it's easy research to do).

There is a vast proportion of Religious Sects of Christianity which ascribe to "ORIGINAL SIN". What this means is that YES, everyone born is PRE-DAMNED by god because of the apple in the Garden of Eden. Original Sin came mostly from the Dark Ages and the time leading up to them.

It became a powerful tool of the Catholic church, which allowed them to sell Indulgences; Indulgences are basically "Forgiveness for your sins". Since every person was born with sin except Christ (Which is why the 'Virgin Birth' Is so important, because Mary was supposedly not marred by sexual thoughts or getting it on fornicating-style), everyone needed to get forgiveness from the church.

So... there is a huge subset of Christianity which advocates Original sin. Some subsets of that portion also advocate that women are lesser beings responsible for the fall of man and ultimately more sinful than man himself (Which is where the PURITANS Come in! Those grande old people that got kicked out of England to America for their fanatically TOO religious beliefs!)

The Scarlett Letter is about this particular subject, and is a fine book for reading before entering into this Thread as it will familiarize yourself with how Sin has been viewed in history, and how some of these views have been passed down in different forms to our own generation.



posted on Nov, 13 2008 @ 09:14 PM
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reply to post by crmanager
 


How on Earth does that prove my statement false!?





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