No more bailouts..it has to stop and it should have never started. Some politicians just want to through money to the auto industry (Levin for example). Problem is that no one is buying vehicles. I wonder why that is? Maybe it's because people are being layed off and losing their jobs? When that happens they struggle or are unable to pay their bills, mortgages, car payments, and credit cards.

You can't force people to buy autos. Yeah, they could send them bailout money now but they'll be doing it again in a few months time because they will continue to lose money. The economy is not going to do a quick 180 and start improving. It's on a downward slide that looks to have no end.

This may devastate Michigan, which is where i live, but if it has to happen then so be it.

It's time for people and companies to start taking responsibility for their actions and poor judgement. Taxpayers don't deserve this. If they want to do this bailout they can send me a brand new vehicle or pay off the one i have.

Bah....I get angry everytime i think about it!

I'm sick of the bailouts! the wall street/banker bribe hasn't worked the banks took the bloody money and horded it. they aren't loaning the money out to other banks or businesses they are lining their own pockets with it. the Big 3 will do the same. Also propping banks and businesses up will only delay there collapse.

In all honesty the biggest thing that's hurting the automakers right now besides the decline in sales, is the union. every time the contracts come up for renewal the unions demand more and more from the companies. Now the union workers need to take a good look at their greed and what its doing to the very same company that puts food on their table and clothes on their back. Seriously do you need to be paid $20 dollars an hour for the same job just a couple years ago you were paid $10 an hour? Nothing has changed in the job to make it harder in fact they have made your job easier.

I've been to a few GM plants, i use to drive a truck and i delivered to several GM plants. In 2000 a forklift driver was paid $15 an hour to unload trucks. he was paid $15 an hour to sit on his butt and move pallets and crates. I delivered to that plant every other day for 6 months. my last load to that plant the same forklift driver that always unloaded my truck just got a pay raise that day he jumped from $15 an hour to $18 an hour, because a new contract had been signed. i can only imagine what the line workers made and how much of a jump they received with their new contracts.

The moral of the story is If the union and the union employees even remotely cared about their jobs right now they would voluntarily take a pay cut to help the company they work for try and survive this without asking the taxpayers to bail there asses out!

Another thing that bugs me about automakers in general is fuel inefficiency. It seems we've been stuck at the mid 20 to low 30 mpg point for over a decade now. Why can't we be at 40 mpg for an average size car by now?

you think 15 -20 dollars an hour is to much what a joke if thats all there getting they deserve every penny if gm cant get buy with paying there employees 20 dollars an hour they should go broke like the bums they are what do they make a truck for 3-4000 dollars
anyone who think 20 dollars an hour is the problem is a moron

how about the upper management that makes millions

It is all payback. The unions, for the most part vote a Democrat ticket. Why, then should the Republicans get behind a union bailout?

The Big 3 have screwed us as much as the government. In the 1970's the writing was on the wall- we needed fuel economy. Did / have we obtained it?

I heard recently,(Mike Gallagher?) that the auto-makers saw a decrease in the oil prices, and decided to hold off putting hybrid vehicles on the market.
I do not have a link, forgive me. If true, this really turns me off.

I own foreign, due to better quality. My old beater has cost me about $1000 over the last 17 yrs, 178000 miles. It is a Toyota, built in Canada. I've been looking at a new one, not even considering American made due to quality.

As with the original bailout bill, I say let them fail. It's what they do best.

I am watching CSPAN right now...looks like they are all opposing the plan in its current form and saying exactly what everyone else is saying.

No bailout, Chapter 11, restructure. They are opposing put the government in charge of making cars, which is refreshing to hear.

My take is similar to what others have said. The UAW is largely responsible for this failure and should be ousted. Let them get other jobs in public relations, HR, finance...just out of the corrupt UAW.

At union plants, they have people that sit in a room waiting to see if they will be needed for work. They stay there all day. They are essentially "on call" in case someone calls in sick or doesnt show up. They are paid a full wage for the day to do nothing.
I work for a company that supports Nissan. Every 6 weeks, I am on call for 7 days. My requirement is to be easily reachable within 30 minutes. If I dont get called, I dont get paid. Of course, if I dont get called, I dont have to do any extra work. Makes perfect sense to me.

When the big three went to Washington to plead their case the first time, they flew on a private jet that cost $20k. They said it was because of company policy, but werent the very people who make policy the ones on the jet?

They have ridden stallions long enough. Time to hop on a nag and keep on trudging along like the rest of us.

I dont want to see anyone lose their job. I just think they should work for a company that uses smarter business practices to offer them a fair job for a fair wage.

Sorry for the added post, but Barbara Boxer is making my braincells commit suicide.

She just compared MS and TN spending taxpayer dollars to lure Nissan and Toyota to setup business in their states to the Fed Bailout of the big 3. Are you kidding me? Of course states are putting state tax dollars into the lure for companies that bring in fair business, offering fair jobs for fair wages with the support of the people of the states.

How is this anything like the bailout? Its not. The big 3 have had a good run and the UAW has profited on the backs of these businesses. Now, its time for them to go. Let the companies reinvent themselves without union rules like the foreign operators are doing, then they would see why these companies are not barking up the bailout tree.

Granted, Toyota and Nissan are feeling the crunch. They are both having to make cutbacks. However, they are not on the verge of closing up shop, filing for bankruptcy, or laying off entire work forces.

This woman makes my head hurt. Not to rant just on her, but she mentioned the nearly 2 million jobs lost in 2008. However, she didnt compare it to the 1.6 million lost in 2001. She mentioned the credit crisis and banking failures, but she didnt compare it to the massive bank closures of the late 80s.

OMG! This woman must be dizzy on a daily basis with all the spin she vomits into the ears of the public.

It's NOT an auto-bailout. It's a UNION bail-out plain and simple. The unions support Democrats, and Democrats are about to give the unions a special bail out loan. I call it buying votes. It makes no sense to keep a failed business running by continuing to give it loans.

To everyone that think an auto bailout is wasted money...

Thanks for being on the side that wants 15% unemployment, higher crime rates (don't forget that the Big 3 are a major employer for felons, sometimes their only employment option), and more homeless people for christmas. Thats what makes America great. [/sarcasm]

People are too quick to judge the Big Three. They did not fail the U.S. The U.S. failed them.

Try to produce a product for all of America to buy.
Then be forced to implement $1000's of dollars of redundant safety equipment, making them safer than the cars designed for use on the Autobahn.
Then be forced to increase efficiency year after year, using technology that is pricy and is not really ready for mass production.
Then be forced to pay millions of workers ever increasing wages, along with millions of people who no longer work for you.
Then be forced to pay hundreds of thousands of people who were injured on the job, years ago, and are milking the system.
Then be forced to pay millions of dollars every year in superficial lawsuits, because the general public cannot properly read instructions concerning thee operation of a multi-thousand pound vehicle.
Then be forced to acquire the industry free agents for millions per year, to make your comany more efficient.
Then deal with the realization that the cars are lasting too long, and combined with the Lease programs, your dealerships are getting filled up and are unable to buy more vehicles.
Then deal with a gas price crisis, forcing you to slash vehicle prices and implement fuel-subsidy programs for your potential customers.
Then deal with a credit crisis, where nobody is able to loan out any money to anybody for any reason, forcing the Big Three finance to take the brunt.
Then deal with generalized economy problems, and be forced to lower your lending standards for Auto Finance to extremely high risk clients, just to stay afloat..

Point is: Americans want to much. They want a tank that goes mach 5 with an LCD on every headrest (including 3 in the trunk), HID lighting systems, gets 1000 miles per gallon, can use cole slaw as a fuel source, produced by people who get paid enough to support their entire extended family, and believe they should only pay $1000 for the entire vehicle, and of course they should get a tax break, so the goverment pays them $2000 for a $1000 car. Don't forget, zero interest unlimited term zero minimum payment financing for everyone!

The problem with the Big 3 is that Americans are spoiled. Time to get off our high horses, buy some gas guzzling SUVs and Muscle Cars, and STFU.

America doesn't question $700 Billion for non-failing finance companies.
America doesn't even pay attention to $7.8 TRILLION in Grants for failing finance companies.
But ask for $34 Billion LOAN to fix the problems caused by American citizens and American goverment and allow the country's biggest employeres to stay in business, and it's the Auto Inquisition...

And to make a prerequisate that the taxpayers get something in return for the bailout money? WTF? Taxes were already paid. It's not coming back to us. The tax money only gets returned to the government, and it's pretty safe to say we're getting taxed next year whether they get it back or not.

Doesn't this seem a bit backward?

You got spun. [/rant]


I would've added sources, but I ran out of space.

Edit: Spelling

[edit on 12/12/2008 by systemic.aberration]

Originally posted by systemic.aberration
To everyone that think an auto bailout is wasted money...

Thanks for being on the side that wants 15% unemployment, higher crime rates (don't forget that the Big 3 are a major employer for felons, sometimes their only employment option), and more homeless people for christmas. Thats what makes America great. [/sarcasm]

People are too quick to judge the Big Three. They did not fail the U.S. The U.S. failed them.

Try to produce a product for all of America to buy.
Then be forced to implement $1000's of dollars of redundant safety equipment, making them safer than the cars designed for use on the Autobahn.
Then be forced to increase efficiency year after year, using technology that is pricy and is not really ready for mass production.
Then be forced to pay millions of workers ever increasing wages, along with millions of people who no longer work for you.
Then be forced to pay hundreds of thousands of people who were injured on the job, years ago, and are milking the system.
Then be forced to pay millions of dollars every year in superficial lawsuits, because the general public cannot properly read instructions concerning thee operation of a multi-thousand pound vehicle.
Then be forced to acquire the industry free agents for millions per year, to make your comany more efficient.
Then deal with the realization that the cars are lasting too long, and combined with the Lease programs, your dealerships are getting filled up and are unable to buy more vehicles.
Then deal with a gas price crisis, forcing you to slash vehicle prices and implement fuel-subsidy programs for your potential customers.
Then deal with a credit crisis, where nobody is able to loan out any money to anybody for any reason, forcing the Big Three finance to take the brunt.
Then deal with generalized economy problems, and be forced to lower your lending standards for Auto Finance to extremely high risk clients, just to stay afloat..

Point is: Americans want to much. They want a tank that goes mach 5 with an LCD on every headrest (including 3 in the trunk), HID lighting systems, gets 1000 miles per gallon, can use cole slaw as a fuel source, produced by people who get paid enough to support their entire extended family, and believe they should only pay $1000 for the entire vehicle, and of course they should get a tax break, so the goverment pays them $2000 for a $1000 car. Don't forget, zero interest unlimited term zero minimum payment financing for everyone!

The problem with the Big 3 is that Americans are spoiled. Time to get off our high horses, buy some gas guzzling SUVs and Muscle Cars, and STFU.

America doesn't question $700 Billion for non-failing finance companies.
America doesn't even pay attention to $7.8 TRILLION in Grants for failing finance companies.
But ask for $34 Billion LOAN to fix the problems caused by American citizens and American goverment and allow the country's biggest employeres to stay in business, and it's the Auto Inquisition...

And to make a prerequisate that the taxpayers get something in return for the bailout money? WTF? Taxes were already paid. It's not coming back to us. The tax money only gets returned to the government, and it's pretty safe to say we're getting taxed next year whether they get it back or not.

Doesn't this seem a bit backward?

You got spun. [/rant]


I would've added sources, but I ran out of space.

Edit: Spelling

[edit on 12/12/2008 by systemic.aberration]

You make a lot of points that do not reflect on America failing the auto industry, it reflects the greedy stranglehold that the UAW has on them.

You are correct later in saying that the pains of the economy are affecting all of the automakers. It is only the Big 3 that are suffering more because of the financial pains imposed on them by the UAW.

Toyota is cutting back. Nissan is cutting back. Everyone is cutting back. The Japanese car makers just have to cut back a little less because they do not have the overbearing union money sink to pay into.

The union was a good thing for people for a while, but no longer. It is an entity that has shown itself to be a burden in financially trying times. The people that should be "bailing out" the auto makers is the UAW, not the American taxpayer.

Don't take it the wrong way. I am in no way defending the current union.

The union did great things in the past, but they are equally responsible for the problems that we have today. If you read more into it, you'll see that I show the massive benefits for retirees/layoffs/etc as a problem. That is the union's idea.

When I say that we failed the Big 3, I mean that there is a huge drive for Extreme Safety and Economy, without regard to the increased vehicle cost.

Basically I'm saying that Americans want a Mercedes for the price of a Kia, and that is what has caused problems for the Big 3 for a long time, along with the internal beast of the union, and the greed of the CEOs.

We can all agree that the Big 3 (as a company) messed up. But it should be noted that the loss of the Big 3 will have a severe impact on the United States, and the rest of the world.

The bailout should not be viewed as a moral / blame game issue. It should be viewed as a survival issue.

Look, I despise big goverment. I would prefer that the government stay the hell out of every aspect of our lives. I don't believe in income tax, personal or corporate. I think this entire damned country is out of control with the level of government involvement.

However,

Since they already took the tax dollars, and they are already running the show, then they need to make sure that one of the many cities that were devastated by their asinine programs isn't completely destroyed.

Maybe I'm biased since it hits close to home. But if you had seen what happened to Flint years ago, you would probably understand the level of devastation. Now we're talking about 100 times as much damage.
It won't be pretty to let them go under in this economy.

But at least Detroit will be able to reclaim it's murder capital throne. [sarcasm]

[edit on 12/14/2008 by systemic.aberration]