Terrorists and sex offenders can join military.

reply to post by mkiii

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I totally agree that not all people with a criminal record are bad people. Unfortunately, when I see enemies being made by the criminal actions of people in the US military uniform, there is a problem. Some places needed to have overtly high standards to close the margin of error. When innocent farmers and peasants decide to kill anyone with a US flag on because some criminal was allowed into the military and did a criminal act while out there, I feel there is an issue. I am sorry but I would rather have them keep anyone out that might have loose morals. Especially when we are shipping them off to battle so quickly. That just seems to make more sense than creating more enemies out of innocent people.

Sorry but some places need to be able to say, criminal record...no. That is it. I mean, we have no problem imprisoning anyone in a robe walking in the sand in Iraq right?

I want to say that I agree with that too. There are bad apples with no record getting in too. I feel the standards should be tightened all the way around for the military but we need targets too baddly.

reply to post by mkiii

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you may want ot edit your post...u could posibly be TC'd and lose points. i'm not tryinto play mod, i'm just tryin to help..it specificly mentions the discussion of any past criminal acts you have commited.

Hopefully not...mods should be lenient here, it applies directly to the OP

Well, since militaries of the world typically include sex offences and terrorism on their menu of mayhem this has to be really good.

I mean, why just wait your soldier to be a rapist when he returns from the war? If he is a rapist before the army he will surely be a lot better soldier! As I said before, gang-rapes and terrorism have always been a part of warfare.

Those pot-head hippies should not be allowed into any army. They will never be good rapists, terrorists or ethnic cleansers.

reply to post by ukuli

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But we are the United States and apparently we are better than that. We constantly brag that we are so it just seems like maybe we should give it a try.

reply to post by Djdoubt03

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You know, I'm really not worried about how many points I have. In fact, I don't care if I'm censored. It's happened before and will happen again. I guess that I'm just used to not having rights, the Army does that to ya.

But seriously, most sex offenders in the military start in boot camp. The amount of waivers for sex offenders is so small, that it is not reasonable to expect that several rapists have waivers without good reason. I know several female recruits who have confided in me about being gang-raped in basic by the men in their unit. Being demeaned by their Sgts, called whores, sluts and many more names that I cannot print, the whole military mentality is based on control, submission to power, and calculated aggression to achieve what you desire. Look at Iraq, plenty of women "committing suicide" right after reporting a rape, not to mention the hundreds who don't tell. Until you change the systems in the military, it doesn't matter how many rapists you give waivers to, because there are dozens more created in every basic training or deployment.

Back to wrongful convictions:
For instance, if there is a weapons expert that got drunk and had consensual sex with a girl at a party, who then decided to press rape charges after the fact, the weapons expert would be screwed, simply by bias of the courts. And forget it if he claims that he was raped, even if that is how it happened. The girl or assaulter would file a counter claim and most juries cannot see women as sexual predators, thus the man would be imprisoned wrongfully.

This is why we have the waiver system, for all those perverted guys who have to pee on a roadtrip, for high school kids who moon their friends(don't laugh, 2 teens at Gilbert High AZ are now sex offenders because they mooned friends). Now the friends had mooned them first, but the officer didn't see that. Oh well, now they have to register where they live for the rest of their life and have a stigma attached. People in positions of power, such as youth group leaders, are possible targets for fraudulent claims, especially those in churches, where a payout would be the goal.

There is too much injustice in our system to not allow for waivers. And for those who may not be fully aware of how waivers work, I called my friend SSGT Ramirez at an army recruiting station in Tempe, AZ. A waiver for a misdemeanor is usually available from the local MEPS, which I had to do. Any more than that one and they are sent through the service's recruiting command, and have to have basically a LTC or higher sign off after reviewing your case.

According to my friend, most felony waivers are denied, but if your skills, the case facts, or a well placed friend indicate that it may be more beneficial for the military to have you, you may get through. Felony goes straight to recruiting command and is seen by a panel. Most recruiters will flat out tell you that you do not have a chance in hell of getting in if you have 4+misdemeanors, or 2+ felonies, or a major Felony and therefore will not send in your waiver request, which means that only the more reasonable waivers are requested. There is a remote chance that they may submit your paperwork if you happen to be skilled in Arabic or Farsi and a dead shot with a rifle or something similar, but even then it's likely to be rejected with just a DUI conviction and an assault charge.

My battle buddy had to appear before a panel for his felony(drug distribution) even though he was an unknowing passenger in the car, but was convicted as an accomplice despite a confession from the driver that cleared him of involvement. Obviously the panel found that the conviction was not a true statement to his character and allowed him in. He is still serving on active duty in Afghanistan thanks to a waiver.

Sorry for the length, I get typing and forget how much I type.
4000

From what some of you are saying, it sounds more like you feel it's the legal system that's at fault here, giving people bad records. In some ways I do agree, things like peeing on the street, or mooning or the like should really be seperate misdemeanours, not felony sex offences, then we would know that people who have a sex offence record really are bad guys.

I'm not sure about the false rape charge example though, sure that guy may be innocent, but how do we know for sure? The court system is what we have, and if someone's convicted under that, shouldn't we accept that it is highly likely they are guilty? I'd rather be safe than sorry on one like that.

I agree with an idea someone else was presenting too, people like military and cops are a countries representatives to their country and the world, and we should hold them to a higher moral standard.

[edit on 13-11-2008 by gullychief]

Minor drug offenses, yes. Psychological disorders, no.



Blackwater isn't the US military.

Oh, really? Would you care to point out a US military publication, regulation, or instruction that might govern this sort of activity? Maybe a training center that would teach these certain behaviors?

Thought so.

Hold on to that "thought so" for a moment there, pal. You have to actually give the opportunity for a response before you can get snippy about one not coming. I have one for you.

Would you like the videos of them misstreating children, shooting at civillians, attacking farmers livestock, or the pictures of the sexually deviant behavior that ran rampant at Gitmo?

And this is being instructed to every single man and woman in the US mililtary? Citizens enlisting in the military are being officially taught to rape, murder, etc?

How many people in the US military, total? Or how about an easier number; how many in Iraq?

And how many cases of troops being ass-hats to the population of Iraq? Or are you just going to produce the same youtube videos that are constently posted proving how "horrible" US troops are?

I guess you just must have overlooked the mass graves of civilians killed by the insurgents, the people tortured and mutilated before being executed, the carbombs that are planted in crowded markets guarenteed to kill not a single soldier but only women and children.

reply to post by gullychief

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Gully,

Think about it. Why do people create governments? To have a way to solve a problem. How come the government never fixes the problem? Because then they would lose the power...so...we have massively expanded our law books to address all of "society's problems" from absentee ballots to zebra hunting. Economy, War, Terrorism, Drugs, Crime, Guns, AIDS, and Piracy(both on the high seas and intellectual) all have been tasked to the government to resolve, but nothing has been resolved. The economy is in the shtter, we're in 2 wars and sure seem to be angling for another one or two, terrorists haven't struck on US soil in 7 years and the gov will sure claim that they have prevented attacks, but most of their "terrorists" are either innocent or so ridiculous that they are not a threat (need I mention the tuxedo assassins). I think that, after all the witnesses that have come forward, it is reasonable to conclude that the govt, with the cooperation of the DEA, has previously and may possibly still be smuggling cocaine and heroin into this country despite their mandate. Guns, we created the ATF who now rule with an iron fist, busting in guns blazing. AIDS was hyped major to get funding and twenty plus years later they have concluded that nothing they have done in the last 20 yrs was even remotely successful. And don't bring up AZT as that was actually created in 1964 as a cancer test drug, which didn't work, so they figured they would use it for AIDS. There are also reports that it actually harms more than it helps, but I only know of anecdotal evidence, so take that part with a grain of salt (although would they really want to admit that they have been killing people faster by telling them it would help?).

As for the court system, I have no problem with convicting someone and throwing them in prison on one condition: beyond a reasonable doubt. Unfortunately this is a joke in our system, where judges openly violate the right of the jury to acquit based on jury nullification, DA's hold back evidence until it is too late to review, Public Defenders just want you to plea out so they can go back to lunch, cops torture for confessions(see Chicago). Face it, once you are arrested, you are fighting a massive uphill battle regardless of innocence . Also, without a fully informed jury, we can't have justice. People always tout DNA as foolproof, but what happens if your DNA is placed at the scene. Even an alibi won't hold up against DNA in this day and age. Your alibi will be held for perjury and you will go to prison. We all know that there are many dirty cops. There are too many variables to truly have a fair and balanced system. As such, the results of the system should always be subject to heavy scrutiny and transparency, which is a laughable idea here in the states.

I mean how can we expect honesty and transparency when we were just told to go screw ourselves for asking where they spent our 2 trillion dollars.

I want our best and brightest representing the country. This would require however that we fix the economy and country as a whole. Fix the inner cities and less people will run in gangs. Give ex-cons jobs and opportunity and there is a much greater chance that they will not go right back to whatever got them in prison in the first place. By giving the people hope, you can change society for the positive, which will trickle down to all aspects.

If you poison your well, how can you expect to draw good water from it? Same goes for our citizens. If you poison society with corruption, crime, greed and violence, how can you expect to draw an army that stands for honor and justice and America?

By having this massive amount of laws, and using the police to crack down on victimless crimes, we create an alienated portion of society. This grows more & more with each generation, until people don't respect laws or cops

reply to post by angel of lightangelo

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I find myself agreeing with your post, but I have what I feel may be a better solution.

I agree, we should not send soldiers with low morals to combat. I don't even think that they should be allowed the honor of wearing the uniform.

The solution lies in oversight and proper judicial procedures. For the standard 11b infantryman, training is now done OSUT. One Station Unit Training last 13 weeks. That's three months for any problems to be detected before they even finish training. Psych evals, written reports by drill sgts, general observation or behavior. By watching and listening to our soldiers, you can weed out the bad apples before they set boots outside of the states. Due to the nature of work that they are doing, it is wrong to ask them to rat each other out, this creates distrust and division amongst the troops, which is the last thing you need in a hostile environment.

We need to make sure that our troops have honor before asking them to be good several thousand miles away, under fire, armed to the teeth. HMMWVs and possibly each individual soldier on the patrol should be equipped with satellite linked cameras to serve as additional proof of action that can be sent to both command as well as a server for backup in the US. Troops should be encouraged and ordered to report any incident instead of covering it up. If a crime is committed, it needs to be punished, but give the soldiers and their company the opportunity to explain the action and to show that there was a credible threat. Our boys do still operate with the fog of war hanging over, sometimes mistakes happen, and they should be rectified with the locals. This will get us a lot farther than covering it up or just moving on, because the people always know the truth. There have been many civilian casualties that have been wanton violence, I will concede that, but not all are. The cameras will help to hold soldiers accountable for their actions, as a total lack of video of an event would indicate a cover-up.

Once deployed, these men need counselors, chaplains, psychiatrists, and as much help as they need. The breaking line between hating the enemy for killing your buddy and massacring women and children is a fine line that needs to be watched for.

If we would only care more instead of treating our men and women in uniform as "cannon fodder", we wouldn't have many of the issues that we do. As to the no crime requirement, that doesn't solve the problem of those without criminal records just because they haven't been caught. This is why we need the multi-tier filtering system.

First, background check under every name and aka through FBI database and local LEOs for all residences. (if you were ever associated by name with a police investigation, as a witness, victim, or suspect, it will be pulled; not all DMV records show up)
Second, psych eval at MEPS for all in a combat arms MOS.
Third, general observation, written reports by sgt or CO and psych eval prior to deployment.
Fourth, continued evaluation and counseling while deployed and after return to states to help with PTSD and mental health.
Fifth, quality post separation mental and physical health care



Just my .02, but momma always tells me that every penny counts.

reply to post by jerico65

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LOL, that is cute. I say something true.

You do not like what I said, or that it is true.

You challenge it...

by saying it does not happen OFTEN ENOUGH to qualify to you as true?

Then you go on to explain how they are worse to us in Iraq.

Ok, well you did not prove me wrong and you did not say anything new so thanks. Nice try. Almost makes it seem like you just won an argument you never had. What I have said stands. Justify and qualify all you like, you cannot make it any less true.

And just where do I say that it doesn't happen often enough?

Step back and re-read the post.

What percentage of troops in Iraq do the things you mention, compared to how many are there now, and have been there in the past?

That's right, a small percentage. Nope, doesn't make it right, but it does have to be taken in context. You know, it's called, "Seeing the problem from all sides" which you have failed to do.

And I brought up what the insurgents have done, simply because here on ATS, what they do is never taken into account; they are never held responsible for their actions. Sorry, Gus, but executing a bunch of Iraqi police recruits by beheading them isn't in the same league as putting women's panties on POWs heads.

That's OK. You're still a no-go at this station, tho.

Right here...



ok, take it into account. Now what does it prove? What point are you making. It is ok for US soldiers to act like deviants because the insurgants do? Go peddle that crap elsewhere.

And......to make what point? I said it happens. What are you arguing? You bring in stats and percentages. Are you claiming it does not happen or is not a problem? Otherwise, you have no argument with me. If you want to talk about what happens to soldiers in Iraq, go nuts. Go off topic all you like. Just do not use that to pretend it in some way negates what I have said.

Again, I said it happens, please explain what you are arguing.

[edit on 13-11-2008 by angel of lightangelo]

Oh good heavens I have to post it again...

Taken from my post here and also reposted here and soon to be added to my signature as a permanent link:

Army Has Not Lowered Soldier Recruiting Standards




Same source:




All this was prior to all, let me repeat that ALL, felonies being disqualifiers for joining the military. If you choose to not believe me, I invite you to call the army or national guard's 1-800 number or your local recruiting office. Tell them you have a felony, pick one any one, and see if you are eligible to join. You don't have to give them your name, number, address, etc. Just tell them you might be interested but want to know if a felony disqualifies you. If they tell you that you are still eligible they must not have gotten the memo.

edit to add forgotten word

[edit on 13-11-2008 by Jenna]

reply to post by Jenna

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No no, you are right. Nothing but good upstanding perfect citizens in the military. I wonder where all those rape and murder charges come from then? How about the epidemic of gang members joining the military?
I guess all that stuff is completely imaginary then right?
Sorry but the standards are too low and the behavior of a few bad apples really bears that out since there are more than enough home videos of them doing evil and stupid crap in my name, wearing my flag, on my dollar. The fact that it happens at all should be acknowledged, understood, and addressed, not justified and minimized.

reply to post by angel of lightangelo

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When you have any group of people as large as the military (1.3+ million), you are going to have some who slip through the cracks and manage to get in. As I have pointed out on another recent military thread, they do not employ palm readers and sooth-sayers in the military thus they cannot predict what each individual person will do during their military career. But apparently that is what is expected by the anti-military crowd. Sorry, but unless you know a palm reader or sooth-sayer who isn't just a con-artist they aren't going to be hiring any anytime soon.

If someone wants to join the military and has absolutely no criminal background, and nothing to indicate that they are in a gang or are a rapist, how exactly do you propose keeping those people out of the military? Are you aware that some people are capable of covering their true thoughts and feelings about things until it benefits them not to?

You can't take the actions of the few and demonize an entire group of people. That makes about as much sense as saying everyone from Germany is a Nazi, which they aren't, or that every Christian is a murderer/rapist/whatever, which they aren't, or that every person regardless of skin tone or religion is a murderer/rapist/whatever, which they aren't. It's completely asinine to try to say the entire military is full of rapists, murderers and gang members.

And since you don't appear to have much information on enlistment standards or the UCMJ, I looked them up for you too.

Army Enlistment Standards
Uniform Code of Military Justice

But please, continue trying to paint 1.3 million people with the same brush. It only shows how little you actually know about the military or the people in it.