Where's the Justification for this?

I'm not a religious person by any stretch of the means. I just want to put that out there first.

Now, I have to wonder with the way we do things in the US, how is it that the Government can justify taking Christian practices, symbols, etc. out of our public education system, but allow other faiths in with their practices and symbols? Are you telling me it's okay for a Muslim to walk out of class 4 or 5 times a day to go pray to the cardinal direction East, but it's not okay to have the ten commandments on the wall? No.

If you are going to take one out - take them ALL out and if there is flak from angry parents, tough crap - tell them to take their kids elsewhere. The "EDUCATION" system is just for that - science, history, etc. I say separate the two for good. That way - no one can yell.

How is this justified? How? Are you telling me your religion is more important than Christianity? Ha! They're all the same! You are using faith to justify your belief in a book, symbol, ideal, God/Goddess, etc. Take all of them out and leave the education in.

Sorry for my rant.

What do you guys think?

Allowing Muslim students to leave the classroom for prayer isn't the same as integrating their religion into the classroom. Muslim prayers require particular postures, vocalizations and concentration on the part of the individual, and I doubt a classroom full of other students would be appropriate for this (can you really imagine a bunch of non-Muslim kids respectfully ignoring a display like this?). I was raised in a Christian household in the "Bible Belt" of America, and I'm quite aware of Christian practices. Christian prayer can be perfectly silent and unnoticeable to onlookers, quite unlike Muslim daily prayers, which seem to necessitate that the child leave the classroom. As far as I know, Christians themselves are not prevented from engaging in private, individual prayer. Are they allowed to call a group circle to pray aloud as a class activity? No. But they are free to pray quietly if they wish, as long as it does not disrupt the official classroom activities. If this has changed, I'm unaware of it.

As far as I'm concerned, all religious activities should be kept out of the classrooms in public schools. If it is so terribly important to a parent that their child be allowed to engage in a vocal prayer that disrupts school activities, they can send them to a private religious school. I really don't see the great importance of this, however, as a Christian child can just as well pray to themselves. It is ridiculous to act as though God himself actually cares whether or not you speak your prayer aloud. He'll hear you either way, and be glad for your effort. This is more about a rebellion--"Dammit, you will acknowledge our religion whether you want to or not!".

I do not think that a Muslim child exiting the classroom to perform the required five daily prayers is tantamount to bringing religion into the classroom. If anything, it's taking it out.

[edit on 12/11/08 by paperplanes]

reply to post by paperplanes


Glad to see we're in agreement.

Thanks for posting.

reply to post by mf_luder
While I don't disagree with your overall opinion that "if it is true for one, it should be true for all", I think the problem arises from the fact that the US Government has to cater to the minority groups, to avoid threats from the ACLU and similar foundations.

Which ends up being a total load of rubbish. The US Government shouldn't have to cater to any of those organizations. ACLU..... please. That makes me sick to my stomach. So the basis of what those organizations teach is that hypocrisy is okay for Americans. Do as I say, not as I do?

We can remove one to single it out, but not the others? Hmmmm.... kinda sounds like something the organization exists to combat.... singling one out and allowing others to profit....

Hmm.....

Star for you.

[edit on 12-11-2008 by mf_luder]

[If you are going to take one out - take them ALL out and if there is flak from angry parents, tough crap - tell them to take their kids elsewhere. The "EDUCATION" system is just for that - science, history, etc. I say separate the two for good. That way - no one can yell.]

I agree ...in fact it is the PARENTS responsibility (in my opinion) to raise up a child in the way he SHOULD go not the Schools ....
They never should have allowed any of it in the first place ..
I dont want them teaching my child ANYTHING RELIGION related ..(since there are so many false teachers and so many demoninations and so many religions) ..the kids will go and research those religions etc themselves once they get old enough to understand whats going on ....Kids always branch out and read other stuff and go to other churches etc ..and listen to friends who are other religions etc ...even after being taught about the Lord at home from childhood . ...

Thats what they did to themselves(The Christians who started that) ..now every religion is gonna get its turn too ......whats fair is fair ....

Not saying I like any of it ..because I think School should be STRICTLY for learning reading writing and math .....they cant even teach them that correctly ..I sure dont want them telling my child about God or no god (whatever the case may be )or anything else ....


And why oh why should anyone be allowed to disrupt class just for prayer ?of any kind ...(sorry but even that should not be allowed during school )
I PRAY QUIETLY all of the time ..I DO NOT NEED TO interrupt anything to have my prayer to my LORD >>>.(I do it in my mind without interrupting anyone else or anything else in my day to day life ...
Why dont they have Islamic Schools *(They have Christians schools) just so they can do that .without interrupting public classes for it .......

reply to post by Simplynoone


That was definitely an aspect I agree with I forgot to mention. The parents are the ones the burden should fall on to provide the children with a moral/religious background - not - the school. The school should be solely a center of education in things NOT religious. I agree that religion has played (unfortunately in most regards) a large part on human development, and deserves mention, but should not be part of a curriculuum of any public school.

Originally posted by mf_luder
Which ends up being a total load of rubbish. The US Government shouldn't have to cater to any of those organizations. ACLU..... please. That makes me sick to my stomach. So the basis of what those organizations teach is that hypocrisy is okay for Americans. Do as I say, not as I do?

We can remove one to single it out, but not the others? Hmmmm.... kinda sounds like something the organization exists to combat.... singling one out and allowing others to profit....

Hmm.....

Star for you.

[edit on 12-11-2008 by mf_luder]

Thats exactly what it is.

Ever notice how there are seemingly endless amounts of scholarships/grants for every possible minority group, yet for us young, single, straight, white males, there are very few?

It seems to me that the tables have turned, and the very groups the ACLU was created to protect are now, collectively speaking, the new majority.

[edit on 11/12/2008 by prototism]

Something else that irks me to the core.

I don't care what color you are. If you're a flaming idiot - you don't deserve a scholarship into the same university I'm in because of the fact you're that color. Go back to your public school you were too busy playing 'gangland' in or doing drugs in and get your basis down before trying to run on the same playing field as me.

Sorry - I could probably start a whole new thread on that subject alone.

Good post though.

Originally posted by mf_luder
Something else that irks me to the core.

I don't care what color you are. If you're a flaming idiot - you don't deserve a scholarship into the same university I'm in because of the fact you're that color. Go back to your public school you were too busy playing 'gangland' in or doing drugs in and get your basis down before trying to run on the same playing field as me.

Sorry - I could probably start a whole new thread on that subject alone.

Good post though.

Well, misguided youth, regardless of race/ethnicity/etc, are victims of environment, and perhaps circumstance. They could be smarter than you and I put together, but not have the resources to achieve [materialistic] success, or are dragged into the gang lifestyle.

Either way, they could make a difference in the world, but factors outside of their control "hold them down" (as they would say)

THAT is what the ACLU was originally conceived to help with. At least I think so.

[edit on 11/12/2008 by prototism]

That being said, why have they gotten so far off course?

What's going on with that?

Why isn't the ACLU lobbying to remove all religion from government institution instead of just Christianity?

Originally posted by mf_luder
That being said, why have they gotten so far off course?

What's going on with that?

Why isn't the ACLU lobbying to remove all religion from government institution instead of just Christianity?

I think part of reason they have gotten so off course, is because the people of the minority groups who they helped in the initial years of the organization, either infiltrated or financially supported the group, and over the years, their residual feelings of oppression have manipulated it to where it is today.

reply to post by mf_luder


I've said the same thing for ages.
I've also said that religion shouldn't be a part of school education anymore,it should be up to the parents to teach them that.Faith is a serious study and it can't be taught in a cpl of hrs a week over a few years.So much gets left out,thats why so many Christians don't really know whats in the Bible.Muslims and Jews have after school teachings of their faiths,its about time Christianity followed suit.

reply to post by mf_luder


YeaH! Public schools should be completely secular as should the government.

I'm divided on the idea of having public schools bend under religion.


Actually I think if you want to introduce religion to your child's education, you should home school them. But that opens opportunity for indoctrination.

Indoctrination should be outlawed.

Edit: woops posted that in the wrong thread.


Move along, people. nothing to see here.

[edit on 11/12/2008 by Good Wolf]

reply to post by Simplynoone

Hey Simplynoone:

I agree with everything you have said. It should be up to the parents to teach their children about their faith. A school teacher has no right or education to do that. And the class room should not be disrupted for other students to leave and have their prayer time.

These children should be entered in a private school system.

God bless,
Grandma

reply to post by Grandma


Even as a religious person I understood one thing. There is a time to teach children religion and there is a time to let them be children.

Up until the age of seven a child's mind is only building up knowledge of what is right and wrong based on discipline (ie. stealing a cookie is bad because I get a smack on the hand)

After that age, a child begins to learn why that is so. Part of this stage is principles and morals.

It's not until around 14 that one can fully reason like an adult.

Even when I was a christian I wouldn't dream of trying to introduce religion to them before the age of 7-8, it impairs their ability to reason and the easily become indoctrinated.

reply to post by mf_luder

I'm pretty sure someone else said this, but there's a difference between having a symbol of religion in a school than it is to go outside of school for religious reasons. If you couldn't leave the school for religious reasons, there would be almost no holidays, and we all know kids love time off from school. Of course, christmas has lost it's "meaning", and all kids stay home when it is a (major) christian holiday (easter, christmas, good friday, thanksgiving, etc?).

reply to post by mf_luder


Star for you!
I agree 110%
It's just as ridiculous as living in a country where they remove the ten commandments from a courthouse, yet the president constantly says "god bless america"

You should know by now that only white/christian/males are capable of discrimination, and allowed to be discriminated against.
It's like the kid in cali who tried to start a group for just white kids (who are the minority in southern cali) and eventhough there was a group for every other racial group, he was labeled a racist for even suggesting it.

And people actually ask me why I chose the name Ashamed American...

reply to post by mf_luder


Well, that's real simple. When was the last time Hindus in America tried to subvert biology textbooks by disclaimers on the cover flap explaining how there are "alternative theories" of all life springing from a lotus bloom, or whatever the mainstream hindu creation belief is?

When was the last time the local coven pressured the principle of the nearest elementary school to put the Wiccan Rede up next to the blackboard?

When was the last time the Jewish people of a community had a protest to remove the heathen symbols of Christmas from a pageant / play?

Can't say I've heard of too many Muslim parents wanting the coach to lead an affirmative oath of service to allah at the start of every middle school sporting event.

No, it's pretty much Christians wanting the books changed, wanting the ten commandments up, wanting Haunnakah removed from the holiday season in schools, and wanting teacher-led prayer. Nobody else is doing this, it's really just the Christians. And when they get told "no, you can't" they whimper and whine about being targeted. Well, that's what they get for painting a bullseye on their ass and sticking it in someone's face, isn't it?