What's funny is that you use the fact that the Ancient Greeks, never considered them selves one country, but individual city states, who had in common the fact they were Hellenic people, through twisting and distorting of facts, you try to prove a point(ie your propaganda). It is odd how you only post links to a propaganda site, why dont you provide the ATS community with the original sources of quotes and statements by ancient Greek historians? Because if they saw what was really said, and taken in the proper context, you would be proving you are posting propaganda and that I am right.

These city states and tribes were constantly at war, some hated each other, some considered the others barbarians. But these are all widely known facts to those who are educated, who have studied this stuff. Which you have not.

This site is about denying ignorance....so lets deny your ignorance, lets educate you(and anyone else who does not know the truth or is unsure), the facts, of reality, in other words, history, and not some half baked propaganda created in the last 5-6 decades.

We are talking about a nation whose history is thousands of years old, which as seen the birth of democracy, the very foundations of western civilisation, which has the artifacts and proof to back it up, and now in the last 60 years, it was first challenged by communists for political purposes, and now by their children.

Gee I dunno, a proven history of several thousand years, or some communists descendants with a clear political agenda. Hmmm, tough one.

[edit on 16-11-2008 by BLV12]


And I missed this earlier when I first posted here.
But those coins posted on the first page by the op in his first post, the inscriptions are in Greek.

Can you explain this? I'd like to see a reply with out the use of propaganda sites.

[edit on 16-11-2008 by BLV12]

hahaha how ignorant can you get. I posted the that topic to show you that the other guy started to say
Macedonia do not exist. But you "do not" read that right. I dont say that the greece people are macedonians.

I say that we macedonians co existed with you. And you still dont answer my questions.
Ok then I see. It does not matter what will I write you always say the same only with different words.

On the coin with the name Macedonia you can see that it has 9 letters
and the greek word for Macedonia is with 10 letters Μακεδονίας. And the letters are not the same.

If you are so sure that we are greeks why then you exiled most of the macedonian population
with macedonian names. And they are banned to return. Even in The Encyclopædia Britannica there is a mention of Macedonia. And if you dont answer that then there is no point in arguing.





[edit on 16-11-2008 by defiler]

Exiled what now?
Macedonian names? You mean slavic names?
Your a funny guy

You co-exist with us today, calling your selves Macedonians in your country, your country which has only been in existence as a country since 1991, and which the territory up until 1945, was known as VARDASKA BANOVINA.

Prior to it being renamed "Macedonia' by Tito, you were Bulgarians. Even the Bulgarians know this, which is why they are offering your people citizenship and passports, which tens of thousands have already taken up.


During the Greek civil war, the communists in Greece were in league with other communists in the Balkans. Some of the commies in Greece were not only Greek, but Slav...Bulgarian...who lived in Greece, who we call Slavomakedones..which means Slav Macedonians, and refers to their ethnicity and place of residence, obviously.

A lot of these people, when the war ended, fled to Yugoslavia. They fled because they had committed atrocities against the Greek people, especially in northern Greece aka Macedonia. This is one of the reasons why there are people in FYROM today, that have Greek names which have been altered to sound slavic. There were also many Greeks in southern parts of FYROM(Surprise surprise, part of the original ancient Macedonia), who had their names changed by force, and had and continue to have their identity and culture suppressed.

The Greek name for Macedonia is Makedonia. Count, NINE letters.
And there is differences between Ancient Greek, and Modern Greek, hence the terms Ancient and Modern.

And the fact you just tried to claim coins with obvious GREEK inscriptions, shows how desperate and ridiculous your claims are.

Oh and I never said you are Greek, I said you, SLAVIC PEOPLE, are not the descendants of any ancient Greek people.

It is a known fact that the ancient Macedonians are from Doric stock, if you don't like this, too bad. Maybe you can commission another racist study that says we Greeks are from pigs this time?

You are such a racist and ignorant person, your life must be filled with hatred.

Oh and I never said you are Greek, I said you, SLAVIC PEOPLE, are not the descendants of any ancient Greek people.

Are you sure that you never said that. You can go to the first page and check this out. This is a quotation from your post you had made on the middle of the first page that clearly shows the opposite.

Why is it there is no mention of Macedonians? Because a Macedonian is a Greek, in the same way an Athenian is a Greek, or a New Yorker is an American, or a Londoner is a Brit/Englishman. Get the picture? It's rather simple.

Then again I never said that we have problems with you and never said anything about Greece before this thread. Unlike your greek friends here.
And believe me my life is not filled with hatred, this is not the top of my concern. Im not even 100 % macedonian my grandfather was russian.
I dont understand the politics of Greece. Why wont you recognize the name. We will never be other than macedonians. Unless you dont want to give the property of the macedonians back.
Im not going to argue with you on this topic anymore unless you give me some facts and tell me about the bible. This is pointless.
Like the old saying : Time will tell who is right. The lies would not last forever.

You seem to missunderstand the fact that YOU are not the descendant of Ancient Macedonians, who were Hellenic, that you are actually the descendant of Slavic people who came to the region from the 5th and 6th centuries AD. This time please read carefully, and notice the AD.



The only people who can claim to be the descendants of Ancient Macedonians, are in fact, Greeks. Why? Because whether your state sponsored former communist propaganda tells you or not, the Ancient Macedonians were Greek.

Why wont you recognize the name. We will never be other than macedonians. Unless you dont want to give the property of the macedonians back.
Im not going to argue with you on this topic anymore unless you give me some facts and tell me about the bible. This is pointless.
Like the old saying : Time will tell who is right. The lies would not last forever.

Why not recognise the name? Why would Greece recognise your countries attempts to claim Greek history? I'm really starting to question your sanity.

You are not Macedonians, you are Slavic, Bulgarian in origin. A Macedonian is a person of Hellenic descent, a Greek. Do you even know were Slavic people originate from? If you did, you would see how it is impossible for you, as a Slav, to be the descendant of an ancient Greek people.

What property? The property of Greek communists who fled and gave up their possessions in Greece? If those Greek communists who changed their names to Slavic names, or their children and grand children, want the property they gave up and abandoned, they can take it the International Court of Justice at the Hague, and contest the matter. While they are there, the atrocities committed by them, will be brought before the court by Greece.

Your not going to argue this topic anymore? Why, because you know you cant win an argument with propaganda and lies when faced with the truth and facts? Typical. You guys always run when challenged. You post your propaganda, a Greek comes along and challenges you, proves you wrong, and you do a runner. Its expected.

The bible? What about it? There is no mention of a Macedonian ethnicity or nation. There is mention of a Macedonia, as in the region..you know the one, the majority of which is in Greece, and not even 10% in FYROM and then some in south eastern Bulgaria.

By the way, did you know the bible was original written in Greek?
Wait, isn't that something you guys claim too, that it was written in "Makedonski" ???

Too bad the Cyrilic alphabet, the one you use for your language, wasn't created till much later on, coincidentally by two Greek brothers, Cyril and Methodus. Oh wait, thats something else you claim too, that Cyril and Methodus were "Makedonski" and not Greek.

Silly me, the whole world is Makedonski. Quick someone email the worlds leading historians, we have it all wrong people!!!

Speaking of which, I don't see Bulgaria claiming Macedonia as theirs. I don't see Bulgaria claiming to be Alexander the Greats(a Greek king) descendants.

Turkey doesn't claim to be the descendants of the Pontian Greeks on the Black Sea, Byzantium, or any other non-Turkic people or empires.

Why is that?
Perhaps because they weren't brainwashed by Communist propaganda for 60 years.

I really do feel sorry for you guys.
You were the pawn of Bulgaria and Yugoslavia, one side trying to limit Bulgarian influence and even destroy it, another trying to limit Serbian influence, and Bulgaria trying to influence you guys(fellow Bulgarians) in the hope of annexing Vardaska(southern Yugoslavia, now FYROM).
Perhaps if the Serbs and Tito didn't stuff around, your Bulgarian forefathers in Yugoslavia-Vardaska would have been allowed to live normal lives, and you wouldn't think you are the descendants of Ancient Greeks(whom you claim are not Greeks) today.

ps you are wrong, time will not tell who is lying, we already know who is lying, you. Although its not your fault, your not doing it intentionally or knowingly. You have been brought up to think the way you do, to believe what you do.
But you are right about one thing, the lies will not last forever, and with each passing moment, your lies are coming undone. You already lost in NATO, which proves this. Even Sarkozy, ex Mossad man, whose grandfather was a Greek Sephardi Jew, knows the facts and openly backs Greece on the issue. There's even Australian politicians who have no traces of Greek in them, who openly say Macedonia(Ancient) is Greek.

Mate, not even the United States of America recognised your so called ethnicity and language. The State Department has made this statement before.

They recognised your country, because they want to build a pipeline through it. It's called politics.

Too bad that pipeline can't find a supplier and Greece is building several pipelines through its own territory with its neighbours through theirs. There could quite possibly be two pipelines through Turkey-Greece-Italy soon, one is already approved, another is a possibility.

Your relevance to American interests is being diminished.
Hopefully you wake up SOON, while Greece is still willing to support you as long as you stop claiming Greek history, because the only country that can be your best and only real ally in the region is Greece.
The Serbs don't like you. The Bulgarians want to take over you. The Albanians want to annex half your country if not take it over. Turkey only bothers with you because it sees you as a way to try and hurt Greece.

Greece doesn't care what language you speak, or if you call your self Macedonians or Space men. If you didn't claim our history we wouldn't give a s*** about what you called your country.

Just look at how much investment Greeks have made in your country already. Tens of thousands of jobs.

Imagine how great the co-operation between our two countries could be, if you dropped your ridiculous and absurd claims on Greek history??

When the Albanians in Tetovo started a civil war, who sent you help straight away? Greece. We gave you weapons for FREE!! Helicopters and armoured personell carriers. We didn't wait for NATO or the EU to make their minds up, we moved immediately to help you defend your selves and protect your territorial integrity.

And after all the help and assistance given, all the jobs and investments created in your country by Greece, you thank us by continuing to be hostile and claiming our history!

Just to prove that this is only about the history claiming which they link to the name, if the above wasn't enough proof already, there is an Athens in America, and even a Mt Macedon in Australia.

Yet there is no objection to the use of these names. Because these places do not claim to be the descendants of Ancient Athens or Macedonia.

[edit on 17-11-2008 by BLV12]

[edit on 17-11-2008 by BLV12]

Funny though,

all these people from FYROM are "Macedonians" until the time comes for them to travel somewhere, then they pull out and start waving their Greek passports they've been hiding under their mattresses...

I call that "hypocrisy" but it's not the first or the last time it happened.

And what of your DNA? The question is are you Macedonian?

@defiler,

I am not Greek nor Macedonian, but you could say I am very familiar with the history of the Balkans.

Further more, you yourself are from Macedonia so anything you say could be biased and therefore any "evidence" you present could be considered tainted.

It also might appear that you are the one conducting propaganda here and not the Greeks...

Just my 2c.

Indeed he is posting propaganda, that first site he used is a well known propaganda site.

If you look at everything I have posted, and you check up on it, you will be able to verify every single thing I've said, from the fact the Slavic people of FYROM arrived in from the 5th & 6th centuries AD, to the fact Alexander the Great said him self he was of Greek descent, to the fact the USA adopted a resolution urging FYROM to end its hostile propaganda, and even the violations of the Interim Accord by FYROM.

What I have posted is not some information which has "come to light" in recent times, it is information and facts, HISTORY, which has been known, well, pretty much since it happened and was written.

You can post all the bs propaganda you want, claiming you were a recognised people in whatever year, hell you can say you were a recognised people in the year 10,000 BC if you want.

But the fact remains, that this stuff, that you claim NOW, has only been claimed NOW, it never existed before. It is all NEW information, NEW propaganda.

Macedonia is well known throughout history. It's known inhabitants have been the Greeks, Bulgarians, Turks, Serbs, Albanians, Vlachs, Roma, Jews.

Never, has there ever been any mention of a Macedonian race, until NOW.

The Serbs, Bulgarians & Greeks fought the Turks for their independence from the Ottoman Empire. We then fought for the region of Macedonia.
Part of it went to Serbia(Yugoslavia, southern part of Vardaska), part of it to Bulgaria(south east regions of Bulgaria), and the majority of it went to Greece.

Why didn't this alleged Macedonian race, fight for its independence?

Because it never existed.



[edit on 19-11-2008 by BLV12]

Do not worry though, not everyone from FYROM is a brainwashed nationalist fascist.

[size=4]FYROM's Nikola Gruevski Lawsuit: His Latest Provocation[/size]
Print Article
Vasko Gligorijevic
November 17, 2008
The news that Nikola Gruevski, the Prime Minister of FYROM and his Government have chosen to file a lawsuit against Greece, claiming that Greece broke the 1993 Interim accord by vetoing FYROM's acceptance into NATO at the Bucarest summit, comes not as surprise. During the entire mandate of Gruevski's VMRO-DPMNE led Government, several attempts of playing the victim card have been tried. After his idea to open the "Aegean"* Question after the relavant chapter of the history has been closed for 60 years, in a naive manner, by issuing resolutions and Spam-like correspondence, this new actions comes just few months before the local and Presidential election in Mr. Gruevski's despotate. The purpose of the lawsuit is understandable. It is not an appeal for legal solution of rightful grievances but a continuation of the "war of symbols" practiced by VMRO-DPMNE. Following the Orwellian maxim "however controls the past, controls the future" the fascistic regime of Gruevski instilled fake sense of identity among Slavs of FYROM, at the same time creating a conviction among the general population that preserving and cherishing this falsified heritage is an act of uttermost priority, a categorical imperative that sets preconditions for social success. Consequently, this last move of desperation from an ideologically bankrupt regime, which views the world in 21st century with the mentality typical of 19th century, when the original VMRO, a gang of nationalist butchers cherishing the idea of Greater Bulgaria, was founded.

After the announcement of the decision in the afternoon hours at 17-X-2008, the media loyal to the regime commented that this is an adequate answer to the policy of official Athens. No mention has been made for the reactivation of irredentist behavior, usage of Greek symbols, promotion of falsified history in a methodical, systematic way, which was ubiquitous for several months.

The lawsuit accuses Greece that it broke the article 11 from the 1995 Accord, but that is not a case

The article in question reads:

"Article 11

1. Upon entry into force of this Interim Accord, The Party of the First Part agrees not to object to the application by or the membership of the Party of the Second Part in international, multilateral and regional organizations and institutions of which the Party of the First Part is a member; however, the Party of the First Part reserves the right to object to any membership referred to above if and to the extent of the Party of the Second Part is to be referred to in such organization or institution differently than in paragraph 2 of the United Nations Security Council resolution 817 (1993). "



This article obviously does not apply to the fact that FYROM's application for membership at the NATO Summit in Bucharest resulted from a convergence of opinions that FYROM isn't ready and it was caused by a multiple failures of reforms wanted from official Skopje. Finally the aforementioned barrage of provocative actions affirmed that FYROM, headed by Gruevski, shows unacceptable, irredentist behavior towards a Greece as a NATO member of long standing.

The latest move by Skopje is therefore, nothing more than a public relationship stunt with aim to fortify hardline totalitarian attitude of FYROMian population, to divert attention from true problems. It is a logical next step after intensive demonization of Greece during VMRO-DPMNE's mandate at one hand and evidence of refusal on behalf of FYROM to end the ongoing negotiation in reasonable time, since most legal experts confirmed that if the lawsuit is accepted by the International Court in Hague, it will take no less than three years before a final decision.

continued next post...

I and others are still waiting for you to provide answers to basic and legitimate questions, without you needing to resort to propaganda, falsifications, and out right lies...when do you think you will be able to provide an answer to a question such as the arrival of Slavs(people of FRYOM, Bulgaria etc) to the region in the 5th & 6th centuries AD????

Is it because you haven o answer for this? Your George Sorros sponsored propaganda machine has been unable to find something to bulls*** the rest of the world with.


To the "Anonymous" poster two posts up.

Yep sure mate, little old Greece has been able to convince the world powers throughout the ages to be pro-Greek and write everything with bias towards us. Makes perfect sense doesn't it?

There are a few thousand people who identify as "Macedonian" in Greece, they are slavic in origin. They have their own political party, called Rainbow Party. They participate in elections like any other political party does.
The fact this party only gets a few thousand votes, is proof they really are a tiny, insignificant minority.

There are more "slavomakedones" which means Slavic Macedonians, and refers to people of Slavic Bulgarian decent, who identify them selves as Greek.

Suppression of who? There is no suppression going on of their so called culture, language. The fact they identify them selves as Makedonski, have their own political party, and feel a need to shout at top of mountains that they feel makedonski, pretty much proves your again, just posting propaganda. If they were being suppressed, you wouldn't know of them. They wouldn't have a political party that takes part in elections, it would have been shut down long ago.

Oh and another interesting fact about these self proclaimed "Makedonski" people in Greece, a lot of them are simply Greek communists who have changed their names from Greek to Slavic ones.

You may be able to fool a few common people on the street who wouldn't know any better on things about Greece & the Balkans, but there are some of us who aren't so easily fooled.

lol helsinki monitor
You should do a deep research about this organisation, see where its roots and funding lie. You won't be so quick to use it as a source then.

Let's just say, when it comes to the Balkans, all these organisations, have vested interests in selling a story. It's political and not based on fact or truth.

Oh and btw, the region of Macedonia was divided predominantly between the three countries whose people inhabited it. Bulgaria, Serbia & Greece. And as you said, a small portion went to Albania.

There was no such thing as an ethnic Macedonian person. There were Bulgarians, Greeks, Albanians, Roma, Jews, Turks, Serbs.

Why can't you get that through your head?
I guess 60 years of some of the most systematic communist propaganda really has taken its toll.
FYROM is the last country in th Balkans that has failed to realise it's future does not lie in antagonising its neighbours.

It's sad because you people actually think your this distinct ancient race, but your not. Even people who aren't Greek, as seen above, know this. So imagine what they are thinking, "Balkan nutters"..
They must be thinking what the hell is wrong with these people, trying to claim another countries history!! I actually don't think this has happened ever before, this is a first.


Oh and excuse me if I simply laugh at your links.
Your side is well known for making things up, taking things out of context, quoting half of what was said to make it look like something else was said.

The Greek government does not officially recognise any "Ethnic" minorities. All these minorities in Greece, are arrivals in the last few hundreds years. The Ethnic people of Greece, are the Greeks, who have been there for several thousand years.
But the Greek government does not deny there are minorities in Greece.
It recognises the Turks, Roma, Pomaks, Vlachs(whom identify as Greeks anyway), the Jews.
So nice try.

Let me ask that anonymous person from the FYROMian diaspora.
In the country you live in, do you expect that government to recognise you as an ethnic minority, to provide you and your people with schools in your language and whatever else you think the Greek government should provide for a few thousand Greek & Slavic communists who changed their names and carry on with the charade of who they really are?

I don't see any of your diaspora complaining in America or Australia.
Maybe because America & Australia are too far for you to claim territory & history from.

I do see you protesting in Australia though, unable to spell ancient Greek names of people you claim aren't Greek, and your uneducated beliefs. Solun, the Bulgarian name for Thessaloniki, was never the capital of Ancient Macedonia. Pella was.
Perhaps pass that little message on, along with a list of "How to Spell Greek Names When Claiming Greeks in Protests", to your various ultra nationalist diaspora organisations.

Cheers.

Both of my parents are from mainland Greece, my mother orignates from Kalavrita, and my father from Nafpaktos. (ancient Lepanto). This doesn't make me any less Greek than anyone in that region.

*** If that study is correct on Greeks being of Ethiopian decent, then I can finally blame my stomach on something other than delicious Greek food!

All kidding aside, this post has been very educating to me as a Greek-Canadian who wasn't too familiar with the situation. Thanks to both defiler and blv. for the great debate.

I came across some news on the new proposals made for the region by the UN.

Here's a few of them:

According to ethnic Macedonian and Greek media, the main points of the proposal from 8 October 2008 are the following

-the name "Republic of Macedonia" will stay the official name inside the country (in the native language)
the name for the country in all official purposes (i.e. United Nations, EU, NATO) will be "Republic of North Macedonia" (Macedonian: Република Северна Македонија)

-UN Security Council will suggest to third countries to use the name "Republic of North Macedonia" in official bilateral relations
the name "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" will no more be an acceptable name for the country

-"Macedonia" alone cannot be used by any of the two parties as an official name for the country or the region.
Both parties can use "Macedonia" and "Macedonian" in unofficial settings, with the precondition that they will not claim exclusive rights of any kind.
the frontpage of the Macedonian passports will contain the following names for the country:

Republic of North Macedonia in English
République de Macédoine du Nord in French
Република Македонија in Macedonian

-Greece will support the integration of its neighbouring country into EU and NATO

-both countries will confirm that they have no territorial claims towards each other
--------------

Stability in the region is crucial. Let's just love each other now and stop fighting.

Totally fascinating read....thank you all for the education. I have wondered a lot over the years about just such a thing. Not just in this part of the world, but in others as well. I had a gut feeling that nationalism would rear its ugly head with the fall of the SSSR and its satellites. It seems their suppression of this very issue through out eastern Europe and parts of Asia has surprised the rest of the world.....serious little hot spots popping up here and there, threatening to bring us all to the brink of WWIII. Let us not forget that WWI was started by a nobody Serbian nationalist.

My wish and prayer for you Macedonians and Greeks is for a peaceful settlement to this issue. My God spread his blessings on you all.