A few questions for any Masons willing to answer

reply to post by LowLevelMason

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what is the agenda of your secret society?
again, i doubt you would be allowed to publicly express it
unless you are a front, a unsuspicious MM version, of what
secret societies "really" are...nonetheless, please answer -
would you welcome a new world order?
what "common-good" is achieved as part of your secret/or not agenda?
why would common people like me trust any secret societies
like yours or Bilderberg group?

i don't. i think secret societies abuse common people, their goal
is profit generation, their goal is resource control, we - the people -
are the means of achieving this or that corrupt goal set.
we are the expendable ones.

reply to post by eventHorizon

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The first book on Freemasonry's secrets was published about 23 years after it formally started meeting as a fraternity.
Since then, multiple books with varying degrees of accuracy have been printed.
People involved with Masonry are free with their involvement, with lists available that show membership of respective lodges.
Wikipedia has a list of famous FreeMasons.
Freemasons fund schools, hospitals, community projects, ect.

Their buildings are well marked, their cars often are as well.
Several Masons seem to do all but strap a Mason flag to their back.
They are not secret, and they are not part of a secret agenda, no matter what you may want to beleive.

Conveniently, you completely ignored my questions and continued down the same line of thought even though I have already pointed out why things cannot be as you believe them to be concerning freemasonry. Very well. I will still answer the questions you have posed.



First off freemasonry isn't a secret society. Freemasons are open about membership, we have websites, meeting times are posted, and the financial books are completely open for review.

The premise of your question makes no sense. Of course I could tell you the point of freemasonry, and I can do so not because of some mythological "front" but because things are simple exactly as they seem. Freemasonry's agenda is to explore masonic philosophy and do good - in secret, where possible - for the community because its simply the right thing to do.



The common good that comes from knowledge associated with exploring philosophy and the common good that comes from doing good because its the right thing to do. You don't have to trust freemasonry, but its rather silly to envision it as part of some evil agenda when its perfectly incapable of what you want to believe it is doing.

The bilderbergs are not a secret society either - just a group of people in power who voluntarily meet.



I am not a member of any secret societies so I really don't know. However, I would venture to guess that people have a right to meet about whatever they want, and you don't have a right to know what they meet about. As long as everyone is a member of their own free will, there is not a problem.

Your rant against profits seems to have no context here.

One could speculate that this is the case, for all I know there is a secret cabal at the most outer fringes of Masonry who meet under it's disguise to do what ever evil plot the Human mind could imagine..

But at the same time, one could speculate, that PETA has a secret cabal at the top of the organization to dominate the World..

And a logical man might assume that while lodges are private and ideal for planning, plotting, conspiring, and maliciously planning the demise of civilization.. so to, and far more so I might add, is the Treasury Department, the Federal Reserve Board Meetings, the inner country clubs of Manhattan and the executive societies of top ranking CEO's, politicians etc..

In the 1700's Masonic lodges where ideal places to conspire (and much conspiring went on) because of the window less rooms, the oath bound members, and the guard with a sharp sword outside..

But now, in the age of technology, does a powerful CEO, President, Senator, Lobbyist really need a not-so-discrete Masonic Hall (which stand out like sore thumbs) and the Masonic ritual to perpetuate their wishes?

No.

The back of a limo, internal invoices, memos, and of course, the conversations that take places in the highly elite clubs of Corporate America.

You over think, over calculate what it takes to perpetuate a movement, an idea, a wave of power.

Globalism is an evil thing, but it doesn't take place in Masonic Halls. It takes place over speaker phones, trade missions, foreign wars, global diversification, technological advances, international trade agreements, organizations that destroy national boundaries like the EU. With technology comes change.. I can now connect to the internet and have a video conference with a woman in Britain, China, India, Mexico, any where I want.. all with the click of a mouse. Change cannot deny these advances..

The mythical NWO is not an organization, it is a movement towards Global Fascism and the development of the united global Oligarchy.

The Global Oligarchy meeting in a Masonic hall in regalia to plot our demise is a romantic thought, one quite possible years ago, but now, Masonry is outdated and obsolete.

And another point you so wrongly pointed out.. there is much pride in belonging to this organization.. this society is the beacon of freedom, hope, and dreams of our Western World, the very foundations of which are entrenched in Masonic Enlightenment ideologies.. I am proud to be associated with the Brethren of the World, especially those of ATS, we respect our ancient institution regardless of what people like you think of us. To belong to a body so large and wide spread, so diverse yet so united, is a feeling one can only obtain through membership in such an organization.

It's not for everyone, but don't shout hate, spill ignorance, and condemn men you don't know. Use intelligence in deciding who to despise, who to blame.. hopefully through education and understanding you will see policy makers don't need our halls to hide in private to exert control..

They stand in front of our TV Cameras, call us ignorant school children, advise us how ignorant we are to manage our own society, then rape our wallets for our children to burden. They own you, outright, publicly, without the need of a secret organization.. because there is one force far more dangerous then a secret society..

And that is complacency.

[edit on 11/10/2008 by Rockpuck]

But you can't really plot for diabolical control of the world without booze. And in many lodges, booze are not allowed!

I think, if I'm recognizing the nature of your questions correctly, you might have a fundamental misunderstanding which has lead you to the wrong conclusions. Masonic education, like all education, is about bettering one's self. Sure, if you can parrot every syllable of every ritual correctly, you'll get a nice certificate that you can hang on the wall. But that doesn't make you better than your fellow man. You don't learn to go through the ranks... you learn to learn. What better motivation is there than pure knowledge itself?

But that brings me to a related topic, which some of my brethren here have heard me discuss before. I'll summarize here again, because I don't recall the context of the last thread in which I brought it up.

You could ask one Mason what the fundamental aspect of Masonry is and he might tell you Fraternity. There's nothing better than being part of something bigger than yourself, having trusted friends and brothers, sharing your joys and successes or commiserating your sorrows and failures.

You could ask another Mason what the fundamental aspect of Masonry is and he might tell you Philanthropy. There's nothing better than helping those less fortunate than ourselves... giving free hospital treatment to burn victims, or children, or those with learning disabilities. Helping widows and orphans pay their bills; giving bicycles to underprivileged kids at Christmas.

You could ask another Mason what the fundamental aspect of Masonry is and he might tell you Esotericism. There's nothing better than learning, for the thirst for knowledge is unquenchable. The symbols and allegories of Masonry are both deep and profound. Men have spent their lifetimes on this quest, and then, upon death's door, smiled as they continued their adventure into the unknown.

You could ask another Mason what the fundamental aspect of Masonry is and he might tell you Ritual. There's nothing better than perfection, and we can all strive to be perfect in what we do and how we do it. To ensure that those who come after us do it the same way our grandfathers did. Tradition and history are paramount and to be faithful to our craft we should seek to emulate their ways as best we can.

And none of these four men is wrong. You get out of Masonry what you put into it. Rockpuck has gone on record saying he doesn't care much for the Esoteric side of things. That's fine. That doesn't make him any less of a Mason. I'm not great at memorization, so my Ritual is rusty and sometimes needs prompting of a nearby brother when I stumble for a line. That doesn't make me any less of a Mason. I have a brother who's of the opinion that the Scottish Rite throws money at problems while the Shriners actually get out and act as clowns for the burned kids, or drive the vans to get them to and from their hospital appointments. Both are needed, both are important. Both are Masons.

So your question supposed that progression was based solely on Esotericism... knowing the symbols. But that doesn't make you any more or less a Mason than the one who always knows all the right things to say and do, or the one who gives a little bit more when the almoner's bucket is passed around, or the one who's there at his brother's side through thick and thin. We're all Masons, because the fundamental aspect of Masonry is that it is, for better or worse, nothing more than what zeal we as its members can bring to it. So the answer is, E) All of the above.

[edit on 11/10/2008 by JoshNorton]

I am a Master Mason and Past master of my Lodge. I am also a 32° KCCH member of the Scottish Rite, a Royal Arch Mason, Cryptic Mason, and Knight Templar in the York Rite, and have various so-called "side degrees".



Generally, Masonic organizations meet monthly. The meeting consists of a formal opening, recognizing visitors and dignitaries, reading of the minutes, reading of petitions for membership, voting on petitions, unfinished business, new business, formal closing, then "festive board" or dinner and fellowship. Masonic meetings generally follow Robert's Rules of Orders unless otherwise specified by the by-laws.



Yes, many.



Yes.



In my jurisdiction, one is tested in order to reach the next degree in the blue lodge. This consists in memorizing the Catechism of the degree. After one becomes a Master Mason, he may then petition for the degrees of the Scottish and/or York Rites. There are no tests required for the higher degrees, and in the United States, he may apply for all those degrees at the same time.

Symbolism is used primarily in the ceremonies of initiation, or "degrees". The symbolism is explained in the ritual as well, although many (including Pike, whom you mentioned) believed that many of the ritualistic explanations were not correct.

reply to post by eventHorizon

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I just wanted to throw in, for the record, that if it had not been for a small group of Masons on the night of December 16, 1773, none of us would be able to use the title 'citizen'.

Had it not been for these courageous men (who probably DID plot revolution during their meetings) we would all have the title of 'subject' or 'comrade'.

On the November 30th meeting of St. Andrew's Lodge in Boston the following happened:



On the night of the tea party, December 16th, we find the following:



I guess my point is that in my opinion all the Freemasons I have met are upstanding men, incapable of the unproven atrocities attributed to them.

Our society is not secret, it is private. We conduct our board meetings and degrees in closed session, but all other activities are open for inspection.

Our accounting books are open records, as is our calendar. Our charity work is visible in the community, but we don't trumpet it.

We are not a benefit society, but we aid our brothers and their families if they are in discomfort or distress.

I think for someone to say otherwise is, as Ron Paul puts it, a 'fallacy of logic'. It is impossible for us to 'prove a negative'.

In other words, if we are indicted as committing unspecified and nebulous atrocities there is no way for us to prove otherwise. Much like a court of law a man does not have to prove his innocence. The State must prove his guilt.

Is there an NWO in my opinion? No.

Can I prove that there is not (proving a negative)? No. But you cannot prove there is, so therefore we are at a stalemate. The best I can offer is that I believe a Mason is more qualified to say what Freemasonry is than a non-mason, but that is my opinion.




(edit for typo)

[edit on 11/11/08 by emsed1]

reply to post by JoshNorton

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Well put , I like your answer and it makes a lot of sense how it can mean different things to different members .

Based on the answers given I have decided to fill out an online info form for a lodge in my city .

Can some of you offer some advice to one taking there first steps in joining a lodge ?

reply to post by Max_TO

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Just be patient, as often the online petitions don't seem to be responded to in a quick fashion. You may also want to complete an online petition/form and print it out, so it can be mailed or dropped off at the local masonic lodge mailbox.

Patience, patience, patience.

Find a local lodge, call or email that lodge's secretary and find out when they meet, and show up one night and have dinner with the guys. Introduce yourself. Ask questions. Get a tour of the lodge. If you like what you find, ask for a petition. Chances are, the guys who have dinner with you, answer your questions and give you the tour will be the ones who sign your petition. As you get to know them, they'll get a gut reaction to you as well.

reply to post by JoshNorton

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I would also agree with this. While it may seem intimidating to just walk into a Lodge, introduce yourself, and socialize with the members...it will be a very rewarding experience if you are interested in filing a petition.

Please let us know of your journey to seek more Light.

reply to post by Rockpuck

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there is no dispute. i agree with your post.
i can't point a finger to any single secret society
and claim that they have an "evil" agenda.
if you will read my posts, my posts was focused
on secret societies in general, not on Freemasons
specifically. i applaud you and your "brothers" for
engaging in open communication on this board.
the more we (the readers) know, the better...

as of posts by other masons here, then:
- NWO is real - we see it in the making. i have no
solid facts, this is my belief based on what
is happening to our republic. and MM madness
associated with events lacking any substance.
- yes, to deny "good" acts by Freemasons would be
unjust. republic itself was created with their direct
involvement. i'm not disputng that, nor do i dispute
other contributions to human society, on intellectual level
and philanthropy. my point was that your organization
is used as a public show if you will, gathering attention
while other secret societies promote their secret agendas.
there was a post by Maban several weeks back dealing
with similar subject...too bad he is gone from ATS.
- also, regardless of what your detailed agenda is,
having one that is secret will raise doubts in external
observer's eyes. nonetheless, one doesn't need to
have a lodge to plot for NWO or wealth redistribution,
one just may have the luxury to be much more blant ourdays.

also, your replies are open, tolerant and appear honest,
that is appreciated. enlighten ATS readers further - information
is power afterall.

I must say I am a bit surprised , I have already received a reply to the email that I sent to a local lodge . The reply included an invitation to drop by the lodge for a tour .

Needless to say I will take them up on there offer and go see what its all about .

My petition to join was presented tonight at my local lodge. First step, and im excited (and a bit anxious).
My question concerns initiation rituals and subsequent benefits.
My college fraternity (which I want nothing to do with) subjected pledges to inhuman, physically dangerous, and humiliating atrocities to become a "brother". After lots of dues, the main benefit was free beer. There was a guise of charity, but it was horseshiat. I know of no brothers who benefited after college graduation, that is the few who made it . (I made it.)

Masons seem to be the near polar opposite.

event horizon, how has your local lodge personally harmed you or your loved ones? How are you not aware of the unacknowledged benefits they have done for your community ? They dont seek thanks or recognition for their works. Have your personal contributions equalled any Mason / Shrine contributions?
just curious...

reply to post by scooterstrats

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The only way you might get a few bruises is if you fall off the goat!

In all seriousness, there is nothing in the ritual incompatible with your civil, moral or religious duties or beliefs. You will not be harmed physically. Also, there is nothing degrading or derogatory in the ritual. You will not be belittled or humiliated in any way.

Congratulations on your choice. I assure you that you will never regret it!
May it be a wonderful journey for you!

Thank you! I Still worry about the goat, though! That Simpsons episode warped me, despite the facts!

There is no physical harm, intimidation or humiliation in the initiation. It's actually a lot of fun and I think if you have been through fraternity hazing you will find it much more tame, but much more interesting and fun.