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How could Lucifer have tempted Eve in the garden when he had not been cast from heaven yet?

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posted on Nov, 12 2008 @ 01:48 AM
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Originally posted by lucidclouds

Have you studied pay attention to daniel's prophecy?




no sorry i havent




posted on Nov, 12 2008 @ 08:05 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by DigitalKid
FOLLOW YOUR OWN PATH AND YOU WILL FIND THE WAY. WE ARE ALL A PART OF GREATNESS!


man has followed its own path to "greatness" for 6 thousand years. even with the bible a majority of man has ignored it. even the church has ignored.

the world today is what happens when you do that. people starve, there are wars, crime, and everyone dies.

you know hitler was following his own path also..


I'm afraid not everyone will get on the correct path and find there own bliss, this is what life is all about for me, learning and spirtual growth.



posted on Nov, 12 2008 @ 10:48 AM
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Originally posted by DigitalKid
this is what life is all about for me, learning and spirtual growth.


what about all the others that have a different view of life?

what about people who think life is about getting what you want when you want it no matter what the consequence?

are you seriously going to encourage them to ¨follow their own path¨ ?



posted on Nov, 12 2008 @ 11:29 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by spy66
We assume that since we cant talk to animals then Adam and Eve cant.


didnt an angel make a donkey talk? why wouldnt satan be able to do the same thing?

we know it has to be satan from a subtle reference.

in verse 4 and 5 the serpent says "Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

in verse 13 eve basically says that the serpent deceived her. she knew after she ate the fruit that she wasnt like god, the serpent lied.

this was the first lie. keep that in mind, then read john 8:44

[44] Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

or in other translations, satan is called the "father of the lie", the first being in the universe to tell a lie.

thats how we know that satan was the serpent.

[edit on 11-11-2008 by miriam0566]


I am sorry but i dont see have you can make the snake into the devil by what you say. You are just making jesters that's all i can read from this. I see the opposite.

God never mention the devil once in the garden of Eden in this text. He is just talking to a serpent. The serpent cant be the devil. God never describes the devil in the Bible as a serpent, only humans do that in their interpretations of the text. But we humans say a lot of things and we also imagine a lot of things.

What you have interpreted is what every one else thinks and they grant you as clever. And they do so without even looking at the text. What you say makes a lot of sense to our imagination but your interpretation is only build up on roomers and teachings about this text from other people. Your just quoting the roomer everyone supports. But dose it make the snake the devil......No i dont think so.

If you read your statement closely you can see that you even say that it is something else. Your just putting two and two together and and whoops it has to be the devil. Yeah what else would make sense right.


What Eve tels God after eating the fruit is really not important.

The serpent is not telling a lie at all. He is just not telling the whole story about what will happen. Is that a crime!!! Adam and Eve knew beforehand that God forbid them to eat from the tree. And God never told Adam and Eve the whole story either.

And why dont you bring up what God dose to the serpent! Is that because it sort of back fires your interpretation of what the serpent really is.

What you interpret is that the snake is possessed by the devil and that's what roomers and teaching teach us and we like to believe that that's a fact. Its because it makes a logical explanation on behalf of the role of the serpent in the garden of Eden.

Is it a act of the devil or is it just a serpent acting on its own. Have can you people be so sure its the devil. God dosent speak to the serpent as if it was the devil. God condemns the serpent for doing a evil deed thats all. It dosent make the serpent a devil.



[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]



posted on Nov, 12 2008 @ 12:09 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by DigitalKid
this is what life is all about for me, learning and spirtual growth.


what about all the others that have a different view of life?

what about people who think life is about getting what you want when you want it no matter what the consequence?

are you seriously going to encourage them to ¨follow their own path¨ ?


Did you read what I said? Not everyone gets it, and you can't try and lead everyone to do what YOU think is right, that is there issue that only THEY can sort out themselves.

That is there evolution to live.



posted on Nov, 12 2008 @ 12:12 PM
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Originally posted by spy66

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by spy66
We assume that since we cant talk to animals then Adam and Eve cant.


didnt an angel make a donkey talk? why wouldnt satan be able to do the same thing?

we know it has to be satan from a subtle reference.

in verse 4 and 5 the serpent says "Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

in verse 13 eve basically says that the serpent deceived her. she knew after she ate the fruit that she wasnt like god, the serpent lied.

this was the first lie. keep that in mind, then read john 8:44

[44] Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

or in other translations, satan is called the "father of the lie", the first being in the universe to tell a lie.

thats how we know that satan was the serpent.

[edit on 11-11-2008 by miriam0566]


I am sorry but i dont see have you can make the snake into the devil by what you say. You are just making jesters that's all i can read from this. I see the opposite.

God never mention the devil once in the garden of Eden in this text. He is just talking to a serpent. The serpent cant be the devil. God never describes the devil in the Bible as a serpent, only humans do that in their interpretations of the text. But we humans say a lot of things and we also imagine a lot of things.

What you have interpreted is what every one else thinks and they grant you as clever. And they do so without even looking at the text. What you say makes a lot of sense to our imagination but your interpretation is only build up on roomers and teachings about this text from other people. Your just quoting the roomer everyone supports. But dose it make the snake the devil......No i dont think so.

If you read your statement closely you can see that you even say that it is something else. Your just putting two and two together and and whoops it has to be the devil. Yeah what else would make sense right.


What Eve tels God after eating the fruit is really not important.

The serpent is not telling a lie at all. He is just not telling the whole story about what will happen. Is that a crime!!! Adam and Eve knew beforehand that God forbid them to eat from the tree. And God never told Adam and Eve the whole story either.

And why dont you bring up what God dose to the serpent! Is that because it sort of back fires your interpretation of what the serpent really is.

What you interpret is that the snake is possessed by the devil and that's what roomers and teaching teach us and we like to belive that thas a fact. Its because it makes a logical explanation on behalf of the role of the serpent in the garden of Eden. But is that what the event in the garden of Eden is all about ?



The serpent represents the Kundalini (the chakra awakening) you where not supposed to eat from that tree as it is the tree of knowledge when those chakra's are open the lies & deciet (in the bible/by Enlil) are clear.

The serpent IS the evil to the evil god most people worship without knowing it ENLIL.



posted on Nov, 12 2008 @ 12:23 PM
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Obviously satan was kicked from heaven prior to the garden .
He is able to stand before God and accuse the brethren though but is no longer an Angel of God and is no longer part of the angelic heavenly host *(Thats what he was kicked from ) ...he was demoted .....and was cast out ....earth is now his stomping grounds ...
When Christ died and went to hell prior to rising from the dead .. that was when he took the KEYS from satan of death and hell which satan obviously had already prior to Christs death and resurrection.By getting the victory over death and hell .
Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken [it].

Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

In Isaiah it says Lucifer how are thou fallen from heaven
Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
So obviously he was cast out even prior to when Jesus says he saw satan fall from heaven like lightening ..because Isaiah was written way before Christ came and died and rose again and Luke wrote what he wrote .
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
I believe when he said that he was saying Jesus was there and saw it happen when it happened ..not that it was happening right then ..(He was talking past tense) ..and even future ...because when satan gets his free reign on earth he will be cast out from even being able to accuse men before God (As the believers will be GONE or killed at the time(after the mark only those who are not believers suffer through the wrath of God) so no need to accuse the brethren if they are not even here on earth anymore.

I believe this refers to the final casting of satan and all his evil angels from heaven (they will not even be in the spiritual realm anymore but cast completely to earth to suffer in human form along with unbelievers who hate God....Gods wrath is directed at them all in the time of his wrath .
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
*I personally believe these stars ..are the angels that fell .....
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I get this view from Isaiah where it states this
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, [and] consider thee, [saying, Is] this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Notice he is just a MAN in this scripture ..
He will become just a man when he posesses the AntiChrist.He will no longer be in the spiritual realm then .....in fact I also believe he lost his mighty powers when cast out of heaven as an angel ..and he has had to use men to do his will ever since then ...which man is perfectly willing to do as he says when he offers them so much knowledge and promises them powers etc (which is all BS) the only powers they actually have are INVENTIONS of weapons of war .....and the power to manipulate others ..using treachery ...and subliminal words and imagery ...

Psa 99:8 Thou answeredst them, O LORD our God: thou wast a God that forgavest them, though thou tookest vengeance of their inventions.
Psa 106:29 Thus they provoked [him] to anger with their inventions: and the plague brake in upon them.
Psa 106:39 Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions.
Pro 8:12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Eze 32:27 And they shall not lie with the mighty [that are] fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though [they were] the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.

I may be way off with my thoughts on this ..but hey you never know I could be right too ...I am not going to say for sure this is how things are ...
But was something I have been mulling over for awhile as a possibility ...


[edit on 12-11-2008 by Simplynoone]



posted on Nov, 12 2008 @ 12:27 PM
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Ok we are getting some where but....

Your not immediately a devil because you do a evil deed. And you dont have to be in a alliance with the devil because you do something bad.

I think the text about the garden of Eden fools many to think that the serpent is evil or in alliance with the devil just because he did a foolish thing. And God condenmed the serpent for doing a foolish thing. Thats what i can read from the text.



posted on Nov, 12 2008 @ 12:32 PM
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Good/God

Evil/Devil

Simple word play.


And err ye the bible is not based on historical fact.


[edit on 12-11-2008 by Horus12]



posted on Nov, 12 2008 @ 12:35 PM
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reply to post by Simplynoone
 



This could also explain why the devil was not in the garden of Eden when Adam and Eve was there.



posted on Nov, 12 2008 @ 12:41 PM
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Originally posted by Horus12
Good/God

Evil/Devil

Simple word play.


[edit on 12-11-2008 by Horus12]


Interesting words realy "word play".

Words do form opinions and understanding.

If you have one text and a hundred people reading it. you would get a 100 different opinions maybe. I dont think more then a few would be the same.

[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]



posted on Nov, 12 2008 @ 12:43 PM
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The Devil spoke through the serpent .
Just like he speaks through men today .
The Devil can use a animal .....(Remember the swine ?)Adam and Eve could not have been tempted from within yet because they had not known sin up until satan tempted them ...
So he used that old serpent to deceive them ....
That was the only way in that garden I believe he could have gotten to them .


I am pretty sure there is more to it than that though ..
The Serpent must have represented what satan is like........(In his image)
Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea.
1) serpent, snake

a) serpent

b) image (of serpent)

c) fleeing serpent (mythological)



posted on Nov, 12 2008 @ 01:19 PM
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Originally posted by Simplynoone
The Devil spoke through the serpent .
Just like he speaks through men today .
The Devil can use a animal .....(Remember the swine ?)Adam and Eve could not have been tempted from within yet because they had not known sin up until satan tempted them ...
So he used that old serpent to deceive them ....
That was the only way in that garden I believe he could have gotten to them .


I am pretty sure there is more to it than that though ..
The Serpent must have represented what satan is like........(In his image)
Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea.
1) serpent, snake

a) serpent

b) image (of serpent)

c) fleeing serpent (mythological)


Ok your thinking logical now and thats not good.

When your talking about the day of the lord. Your talking about the serpent and the dragon as if they where the devil. But they are not. In the Bible they are images of something else. The Bible is using the images in a whole different setting. This is way past the Garden of Eden. It actually has nothing to do with the event in the Garden at all. This has to do with the End times and the second coming of christ. The Bible uses many images like this to describe the different events to happen. The images shouldent be used to interpret other events.

And when you say that the serpent has to represent what the devil is like. You might be right, but you might also be wrong. Just think for a minute your making a logical gesture to fit the image of the serpent to match the devil. Is that what you would call a objective resolution to the text. Have can you make that statement sound like a fact???

God isn't talking to and condemning the devil is he! not in plain text. Where do you read that. Your not reading it but thinking it... why!!!! The devil is never mentiond but still we say that the serpent has to be of the devil because of the serpents actions.

Am in a ligion with the devil if a tell a lie ?

Am i in a ligoin with the devil if i do something foolish ?

No not in my minde. I would never take sides with the devil. And i bet that no one would call me the devil if i told a lie or did something foolish. You would rather say that the people that belived in me to be the fools. And if i did something stuid you would call me just that. But i would get a punishment if my actions where realy bad. Just like God punished the serpent.

But it dosent make me the devil or in a ligion with him. it just makes me a fool.

[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]



posted on Nov, 12 2008 @ 03:11 PM
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{Ok your thinking logical now and thats not good.}

LOL yeah I know ..like I said it was all just something I have mulled over ..I sure dont think I know anything ...because I really do not ..

{When your talking about the day of the lord. Your talking about the serpent and the dragon as if they where the devil. But they are not. In the Bible they are images of something else. The Bible is using the images in a whole different setting. This is way past the Garden of Eden. It actually has nothing to do with the event in the Garden at all. This has to do with the End times and the second coming of christ. The Bible uses many images like this to describe the different events to happen. The images shouldent be used to interpret other events.}

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
(I dont know .it says the dragon is that old serpent ..so what do you think?)


{And when you say that the serpent has to represent what the devil is like. You might be right, but you might also be wrong. Just think for a minute your making a logical gesture to fit the image of the serpent to match the devil. Is that what you would call a objective resolution to the text. Have can you make that statement sound like a fact???}

LOL I thought I told ya that I sure was not saying any of this as fact ..in fact any of it or all of it is subject to change the more I study ...

{God isn't talking to and condemning the devil is he! not in plain text. Where do you read that. Your not reading it but thinking it... why!!!! The devil is never mentiond but still we say that the serpent has to be of the devil because of the serpents actions.}

I dont know ..I will show this again so you can see that it does insinuate that he is the serpent too .And he will go to hell ..(Even though scripture says he will BOW DOWN and worship God in the end too .He is still bound for hell)

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,



posted on Nov, 12 2008 @ 03:15 PM
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I would agree though that when the word Dragon is used it is talking about legions ..and the devil ...who is the leader of the legions.



posted on Nov, 12 2008 @ 04:12 PM
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Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs [come] out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.


Three
a primary (plural) number
www.blueletterbible.org...

Unclean
1) not cleansed, unclean
a) in a ceremonial sense: that which must be abstained from according to the levitical law
b) in a moral sense: unclean in thought and life

Spirits
www.blueletterbible.org...
(Too much to copy paste )


Frogs has no meaning given ...it says of uncertain derivative .

Out of
a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative)
Thayers says this
A preposition governing the genitive,It denotes as well exit or emission out of as separation from something with which there has been close connection

The mouth
) the mouth, as part of the body: of man, of animals, of fish, etc.
a) since thoughts of a man's soul find verbal utterance by his mouth, the "heart" or "soul" and the mouth are distinguished
2) the edge of a sword

Dragon
www.blueletterbible.org...
a dragon, a great serpent, a name for Satan
Thayers lexicon says this
A Dragon ,A Great Serpent,a fabulous animal


There are legions of them for sure .....of course they have a leader (satan himself) ....
But there appears to be three representing them in the end times .*The Unholy trinity
....the false prophet (copying of John the Baptist) ...the antichrist man (Copying Christ Jesus who came as a man ) ...then satan,the devil himself the leader of the whole bunch of them ...(Copying being like God )

John came and preached the coming of the Lord
The Lord Jesus came was filled with the HOLY Spirit of God (just like the man Antichrist will be filled with the unholy spirit of satan) ..
Jesus died and rose from the dead
(the antichrist will die as a man and come back to life (through some sort of trickery or maybe even modern technology that will make him alive again) or appears to be alive or something ..... .....this I am not sure of in putting all of that together yet ...


Wonder what like Frogs means...

Any ideas ?








[edit on 12-11-2008 by Simplynoone]



posted on Nov, 12 2008 @ 04:14 PM
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Originally posted by Grumble
If you try to apply logic to the Bible you will be very confused...


Truer words have never been spoken. There are so many conflicts within the teachings found in the Bible that the easy excuse is that the Old Testament is no longer valid because the New has replaced it and so on and so on.

Then comes the books that were removed. And so on and so on. When you truly apply logic you quickly begin to realize that organized religion has it all wrong. Period.



posted on Nov, 12 2008 @ 04:26 PM
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Originally posted by spy66The serpent cant be the devil.


im not sure exactly how you can arrive at this conclusion.

gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

romans 16:20 And the God of peace [Jesus, the seed, see gal 3:16] shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

i just dont understand how you come to this conclusion that the serpant CANT be the devil. is there anything to suggest that he isnt?


What Eve tels God after eating the fruit is really not important.

The serpent is not telling a lie at all. He is just not telling the whole story about what will happen. Is that a crime!!! Adam and Eve knew beforehand that God forbid them to eat from the tree. And God never told Adam and Eve the whole story either.


actually god did tell them the whole story. he said they would die. they died. simple as that. no hidden knowledge, no god-like abilities, they grew old and they died.

satan said that they wouldnt die. he wasnt omitting anything. he was lying.

where you are pulling all this extra information from, i dont know.


And why dont you bring up what God dose to the serpent! Is that because it sort of back fires your interpretation of what the serpent really is.


no, it wasnt relevant to the discussion. since you need further proof THEN it became relevant, and now it is posted above.


What you interpret is that the snake is possessed by the devil and that's what roomers and teaching teach us and we like to believe that that's a fact. Its because it makes a logical explanation on behalf of the role of the serpent in the garden of Eden.


extremely logical actually.


Is it a act of the devil or is it just a serpent acting on its own. Have can you people be so sure its the devil. God dosent speak to the serpent as if it was the devil. God condemns the serpent for doing a evil deed thats all. It dosent make the serpent a devil.


why would a snake (an animal whose only concern is to mate and eat) feel the need to tempt eve? if animals could talk back then then why cant they now? if the snake wasnt being controlled by satan, then why is satan called the father of the lie? why is satan called a serpent in revelations? what does jesus (the woman's seed) have to do with a snake that has been long dead?

you theory sets off this string of illogical conclusions and contradictions. all because genesis doesnt directly call the serpent satan?



posted on Nov, 12 2008 @ 05:14 PM
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reply to post by Simplynoone
 



your quite right about what you are saying. But dose it really fit into the Garden of Eden. Is the old snake really the snake in the Garden of Eden ?

I dont think so if you read from the beginning. And not from the end. Where you are reading from the serpent is used as a image of the event that happened in the garden. The serpent has become a image of evil. That's something else.

Tell me this. Have would Eve know that it was a serpent she was talking to.

Didn't God bring all the living creatures he had created before Adam in the garden. To give them names. Wouldn't the serpent be one of these creatures. If not... Eve wouldent know who she was talking to right. Then i agree that it would have been the devil.

The clue is really in hove God punishes the serpent. He punishes the serpent as a creature he has created. He is giving the creature a new role in the Garden as punishment just like he gave Adam and Eve the same day.

And from that day on the serpent has become a image of evil used later on as you are applying. Because the Dragon and the serpent is of the same art and is used as images of evil later on. It is also being used to us to describe the way the devil works. Because we can relate to the event that happened in the garden of Eden.



posted on Nov, 12 2008 @ 05:40 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 



What you say makes a lot of sense but you are mixing everything together.

The Bible is like a travel through time and you cant mix the future with the past. But you can use the past to illustrate images of the future. And that's what the Bible dose. It uses images we can relate to.

When God created the garden of Eden Lucifer and his angels where united with God. Lucifer the devil didn't reject god before the creation was finished. When God was done with the creation he told the angels in heaven to kneel to his creation. That's when Lucifer started the war in heaven. But before that Lucifer didn't have a reason to tamper with Adam and Eve.

But the big question is when and why did God send Lucifer and his angels on to earth. Why would God send the devil down to earth to tamper with his creations. Unless Adam and Eve already was cast out of the garden.

You have to read that story to see what i am getting at.

God sent Lucifer to earth to do his deeds . But if Adam and Eve hadn't eaten of the tree then the devil Lucifer wouldent have had the power he was given over us. God wouldent have had a reason to sent Lucifer down to us. And we would still be pure. And the devil would be helpless or with out any power.


[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]





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