Help ATS with a contribution via PayPal:
learn more

How could Lucifer have tempted Eve in the garden when he had not been cast from heaven yet?

page: 2
6
<< 1    3  4  5 >>

log in

join

posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 05:09 AM
link   
reply to post by PsykoOps
 


It does say that in the bible, but wrong book.. here ya go




Mark 5:9: And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many. (KJV) [it is argued that the phrasing is, "we are legion, for we are many"]


Thank you for posting!! Could be the same? I always thought it was funny how the bible gives the names of more demons than it does angels. I know in the apocryphal books there are many named angels, but they were not included in the bible except Gabriel and Michael, as not to detract attention from the message of god. But it's ok to include names of demons? Always seemed strange to me.




posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 05:24 AM
link   
So I did remember it wrong. Somewhere I've read the theory that the serpent and legion are the one and the same. My bad.



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 06:20 AM
link   
Again the ignorance of the "word" is breathtaking. Lucifer was originally a high ranking archangel at the "left" hand of God. It is unclear when the actual rebelion began, but, it was a serpent than tempted eve.


1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.


It is an assumption that the serpent was "lucifer". God cursed the serpent. Just as it is assumed that the forbidden fruit was an apple it is assumed that the serpent was lucifer.

Here is an answer to your question.....but only the beginning.


Lucifer was the Anointed Cherub. Anointed means to be set apart for Gods Divine purpose. It also means "bestowal of Gods divine favor", and "appointment to a special place or function."
God had given Satan a certain amount of power and authority. But he perverted that power. Lucifer wanted to exalt himself above God... rather than "just" being the Angel of God.




www.angelfire.com...

(note this guy does have the issue of who was here before Adam wrong)...





[edit on 9-11-2008 by heliosprime]

[edit on 9-11-2008 by heliosprime]



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 01:25 PM
link   
In my own beliefs, the Dragon and his Angels were a force of good upon the earth... but much bitterness and hatred became seated in the soul of man for the Dragon and his Angels... and they were forced from the earth, ushering in the age of man.

Man likewise created a mythos to explain why all things of the Dragon disappeared from the earth, incriminating God in a war that took place.

The war took place, and it did indeed take place... but not over heaven. Over the souls of man... and the Dragon died to usher in the era we now live in, where all strange beings are banished from the world... some beautiful and kind, and some ruthless and hateful.

As the aeons passed, the story changed. It became the Dragon who was the adversary and the villain, and those who followed were the demons.

If only people knew how completely opposite and bass ackwards this is today. Still though, I suppose it does not matter all that much... since we live in the age of man, and what went before matters for nought.



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 02:28 PM
link   
I have always thought that the serpent was a different being.Not satan or lucifer but an type of animal that was intelligent.What I find interesting about the casting out thing is what Alex Collier says about the reptilian et's.Alex says his contacts told him that the reptilians came from "another place" or dimension. That they were causing trouble and was out of control and were placed on a planet in Drago or Orion I forgot which one.

Now this is only speculation on my part I have no facts at all but what if this reality this universe or this dimension we live in is called earth.Since we at one time thought we were the center of the universe it would make sense that we could confuse the two.I have heard this called the earth plane before.It is my opinion that we have a few pieces of the truth here and there.Perhaps the truth lies in those grey areas that we often over look.Or perhaps Alex took the part about the "fall of the dragon" and use it to make up part of his story.Any how I just find it interesting.



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 02:30 PM
link   
hello there

Try this one

Satan was an angel at one point and they come and go like lightnings (see ezekiel)

david



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 02:39 PM
link   
Could it be he was sent to test them? At the time maybe it wasn't Satan that was considered evil but the actions considered evil. Classical interpretation problem when the bible was written?

Maybe this was the start of Satan's downfall. He was an angel at that time and then decided to go against his parental figure thinking he knew more than his father did. Children do it all the time.

Point being anything that is supposedly factual will always be misinterpreted or just plain wrong to protect someone or something. We have to die to find the whole truth about anything is what I have come to realize.



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 03:46 PM
link   
My idea on this comes from some of bible scripture as well as other old text not included in our bible.

1. When God says 'We will make man in OUR own image" he is talking to the angels. Man was made just a little lower then the angels.

2. God had ordered his angels to bow down and worship man. Lucifer had a little problem with that as he was very prideful. As well as God had told the angels they were to worship only him when he had made them. Lucifer was very jealous of Adam and hated him. He refused to worship Adam as God instructed and that is when Lucifer decided he was going to take over the throne of heaven. There was a big fight and Michael tossed Lucifer from heaven along with 1/3 of the bad angels who followed Lucifer. Remember, angels had free will also.

3. Lucifer is called the 'morning star, the falling star, as well as many other names. Now, it would also come to mind that Lucifer would have known about Christ at that time too and would have wanted to take his seat. Lucifer let his pride and jealous nature be his downfall (get it) He was cast to earth to rule here until Christ comes back. Oh, you can be sure he is real.

4. That would put him here at the time to tempt Eve I believe.

Peace,
Grandma



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 04:29 PM
link   

Originally posted by ElectricUncleSam
Could this possibly be saying that Earth is hell, for maybe we are Satan's angels cast down to earth along with Satan hence the reason why we are here? Hence the reason why we are born with sin and not without... Also with this in mind, couldn't that explain why Jesus came down to earth, to forgive us for our sins and give us a way into heaven through Christianity?...

I mean it would make sense, maybe also why some believe in reincarnation... Maybe that is the way for them because they do not practice the way of Jesus and get stuck in this reborn process that keeps happening over and over for them... Not judging right, so this makes sense, could it be possible?


big bag of worms lol. theres just no simple way to exactly explain it without bombarding you with tons of scriptures. so ill try my best to keep it simple.

there is no scripture that connects satan with hell. not one.

there is a scripture that says that the demons are in "tarterus" (sp?) which from the context implies that it is figurative and simply means that they are isolated from the glory of god, and that they await judgement.

"hell" is commonly refered to as the grave. meaning the dead. they are unactive and dont think {eccl 9:5,10) i go into depth on this in other threads.

that being said, we have to look at the big picture. god permits satan to wreak havoc, why? because of the issues raised in eden. can mankind live independent of god? satan said "you will not die, your eyes will be open and you will know right and wrong", in other words man can make decisions for themselves and dont need god.

this raises the interesting question, can they actually do it? god being assured of the outcome permitted us to see for ourselves (hence why the world is so screwed up)

ok so what happens after the question is thoroughly answered? mankind failed, now what? then god has to clean house. now god gets into a less permissive mood. first order of business is to cleanse the heavens. thats what we see in revelation. satan and his angels are hurled to the vicinity of earth. they are still spirits, but they are no longer permitted to wander around heaven as they please. the angels rejoice at this, hence the "heavens rejoice". but this pisses satan off. that why it says "woe to the earth".

as you read revelation you see that god gradually dismantles satan's world. replaces it with his kingdom. it culminates to the final battle of armageddon. after this, satan is thrown into the abyss. the abyss is somewhat likened to hell in that it can be considered a place of inactivity. in effect satan is dead.

the account goes on that after the millennium, satan is then released again and he draws some faithful away. after satan and his followers are thrown into gehenna. gehenna is not the same place as hell. (i go into that with much more detail in other threads)

anyway, somethings become clear...

- satan is not working for god.
- satan is not in "hell"
- satan will be destroyed



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 04:38 PM
link   

Originally posted by prevenge
anyway..



"Elohim (אֱלוֹהִים , אלהים ) is a Hebrew word which expresses concepts of divinity. It is apparently related to the Hebrew word ēl, though morphologically it consists of the Hebrew word Eloah (אלוה) with a plural suffix. Elohim is the third word in the Hebrew text of Genesis and occurs frequently throughout the Hebrew Bible. Its exact significance is often disputed."


disputed...uuuhuh... except the fact that that's what it is.. a frikin' plural suffix.

aaanyway..

here's a google search on let US " " create man in OUR image" genesis "
www.google.com...


in spanish aswell as in english, we have superlative forms of adjectives. el más grande, or the biggest whatever. hebrew has that form with nouns. they simply make it plural


Elohim has plural morphological form in Hebrew, but it is used with singular verbs and adjectives in the Hebrew text when the particular meaning of the God of Israel (a singular deity) is traditionally understood. Thus the very first words of the Bible are bre# bara elohim, where bara ברא is a verb inflected as third person singular masculine perfect. If Elohim were an ordinary plural word, then the plural verb form bar'u בראו would have been used in this sentence instead. Such plural grammatical forms are in fact found in cases where Elohim has semantically plural reference (not referring to the God of Israel). There are a few other words in Hebrew that have a plural ending, but refer to a single entity and take singular verbs and adjectives, for example בעלים (be'alim, owner) in Exodus 21:29 and elsewhere.
In most English translations of the Bible (e.g. the King James Version), the letter G in "god" is capitalized in cases where Elohim refers to the God of Israel, but there is no distinction between upper and lower case in the Hebrew text.



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 08:37 PM
link   

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by ElectricUncleSam
Could this possibly be saying that Earth is hell, for maybe we are Satan's angels cast down to earth along with Satan hence the reason why we are here? Hence the reason why we are born with sin and not without... Also with this in mind, couldn't that explain why Jesus came down to earth, to forgive us for our sins and give us a way into heaven through Christianity?...

I mean it would make sense, maybe also why some believe in reincarnation... Maybe that is the way for them because they do not practice the way of Jesus and get stuck in this reborn process that keeps happening over and over for them... Not judging right, so this makes sense, could it be possible?


big bag of worms lol. theres just no simple way to exactly explain it without bombarding you with tons of scriptures. so ill try my best to keep it simple.

there is no scripture that connects satan with hell. not one.

there is a scripture that says that the demons are in "tarterus" (sp?) which from the context implies that it is figurative and simply means that they are isolated from the glory of god, and that they await judgement.

"hell" is commonly refered to as the grave. meaning the dead. they are unactive and dont think {eccl 9:5,10) i go into depth on this in other threads.

that being said, we have to look at the big picture. god permits satan to wreak havoc, why? because of the issues raised in eden. can mankind live independent of god? satan said "you will not die, your eyes will be open and you will know right and wrong", in other words man can make decisions for themselves and dont need god.

this raises the interesting question, can they actually do it? god being assured of the outcome permitted us to see for ourselves (hence why the world is so screwed up)

ok so what happens after the question is thoroughly answered? mankind failed, now what? then god has to clean house. now god gets into a less permissive mood. first order of business is to cleanse the heavens. thats what we see in revelation. satan and his angels are hurled to the vicinity of earth. they are still spirits, but they are no longer permitted to wander around heaven as they please. the angels rejoice at this, hence the "heavens rejoice". but this pisses satan off. that why it says "woe to the earth".

as you read revelation you see that god gradually dismantles satan's world. replaces it with his kingdom. it culminates to the final battle of armageddon. after this, satan is thrown into the abyss. the abyss is somewhat likened to hell in that it can be considered a place of inactivity. in effect satan is dead.

the account goes on that after the millennium, satan is then released again and he draws some faithful away. after satan and his followers are thrown into gehenna. gehenna is not the same place as hell. (i go into that with much more detail in other threads)

anyway, somethings become clear...

- satan is not working for god.
- satan is not in "hell"
- satan will be destroyed



Good post.

Just out of curiousity, where did you learn all this?

Most people will read the Bible and never make the connections.

Also, do you know the year Satan was kicked out of Heaven?



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 10:58 PM
link   

Originally posted by Grandma
My idea on this comes from some of bible scripture as well as other old text not included in our bible.

1. When God says 'We will make man in OUR own image" he is talking to the angels. Man was made just a little lower then the angels.

2. God had ordered his angels to bow down and worship man. Lucifer had a little problem with that as he was very prideful. As well as God had told the angels they were to worship only him when he had made them. Lucifer was very jealous of Adam and hated him. He refused to worship Adam as God instructed and that is when Lucifer decided he was going to take over the throne of heaven. There was a big fight and Michael tossed Lucifer from heaven along with 1/3 of the bad angels who followed Lucifer. Remember, angels had free will also.

3. Lucifer is called the 'morning star, the falling star, as well as many other names. Now, it would also come to mind that Lucifer would have known about Christ at that time too and would have wanted to take his seat. Lucifer let his pride and jealous nature be his downfall (get it) He was cast to earth to rule here until Christ comes back. Oh, you can be sure he is real.

4. That would put him here at the time to tempt Eve I believe.

Peace,
Grandma


is this according to your own personal mythology you've amalgamated through the years?

or is it specifically written in actual scripture?

if so, then please provide exact quotes.

I admit, what I say is my opinion and interpretation.. as I believe your statements to be as well.

-



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 04:16 AM
link   

Originally posted by lucidclouds
Good post.

Just out of curiousity, where did you learn all this?

Most people will read the Bible and never make the connections.

Also, do you know the year Satan was kicked out of Heaven?


many many years of studying, even when i wasnt allowed to. i had alot of the elements, then i studied with someone and was able to put some of the more abstract and less obvious pieces together like why do we suffer. figuring out hell was straight forward enough if you do your research.

as for the exact year, that one is extremely difficult.

daniel 4 is the chapter dealing with that. the king of babylon had a dream, about a giant tree that was cut down and prevented from growing for a period of time. daniel showed the king that this vision applied to Nebuchadnezzar.

however the vision had a double fulfillment because in 17 it specifically mentions god's kingdom.

[17] This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

which is a specific reference to jesus.

but here's the thing. the line of kings from jerusalem was cut off in 607 B.C. much like a mighty tree is cut down. it would stay that way until the god appointed his king.

daniel 4 gives us seven "times". in the fulfillment of this prophecy regarding Nebuchadnezzar, the seven times was seven years. seven years for the second fulfillment doesnt make sense. it doesnt fall on anything. however, if it is paralleled, then seven times could equal 7X360 which equal 2520. if you say a day equals a year (see daniel 9), if the starting point is 607 BC then that means jesus was officially enthroned as king in the early 1900's (2520 years later). the exact year, no idea. jesus wasnt born in the year 1. there is some error in that and its disputed eactly when he was born. i think the consensus is around 2 or 3 BC

either way, because satan isnt cast out of heaven until god's kingdom is established, then i would say that satan was caste out sometime in the early 1900's after jesus was anointed king. "woe to the earth" was an understatement, because this century has been like no other.



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 07:02 PM
link   
reply to post by prevenge
 

Hello, I will try to answer your questions as best I can. Some of what I wrote is based in the scriptures and some from my own beliefs after 30 some years of reading and research.

1. In Genesis when God says
Text
Text"They will make man in our own image." I believe that God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, and the angels were all present and that is who God is talking to. I may be wrong, but that is what I believe unless someone can prove different.

2. Isiah 1412How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, You said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the unmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit" I believe where the scripture says I will raise my throne above the STARS OF GOD they are talking about the other angels. Satan is saying he will be over ALL that God had created. In Rev. We see the battle that happened between Michael and Lucifer which Lucifer lost that battle and was cast out of heaven along with some of his followers.

3. It is my belief that Lucifer was cast to earth as the same time Adam and Eve were created and being the devil that he is caused Eve to sin. He is said to be very beautiful and crafty and we are always warned to be ready for his lies and his temptations.

You can go on google LUCIFER and get a lot of information about his beginnings and his history as well as the other evil angels.

I have hope I have not given the impression that I have all the answers. I surely don't and I can only tell you from my experience that Lucifer is very real. The more a Christian grows in their faith and gets stronger the more of a threat they are to Satan and he will come to try to tempt you when you least expect it.

I am sorry If I failed to answer all your questions As a person keeps learning in their faith you do come across other texts that carry merit and need to be given a certain amount of respect. Even if they are not in our Bible. I still consider myself a babe and know I have much more to learn. I think until the day we die we are always searching for deeper meaning to the scriptures. Don't you?

Peace and Love,
Grandma



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 07:11 PM
link   
reply to post by Haiku
 


I got a >GOOD reply to this one.


If you keep reading the Bible you will see that God dose not call the snake the devil,demon or Lucifer. What dose God do to this snake ? He condemned this snake to something what!!!! The snake is still bound by it today
Lucifer is not bound by the same command by God.

The snake is only beeing called evil. Its not beeing called the devil at at all by God. That's just human saying or interpretations.

God or the bible only refers to Lucifer in certain ways. This is not one of them.



[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 07:34 PM
link   
The God of the Old Testament became flesh and is Jesus. Jesus is Jehovah.

I think that when Jesus said he saw Lucifer fall was perhaps when he fell from Heaven before Genesis. He was the snake in the garden and the story of men wanting to be like God parallels Satans.

I think Job is one of the oldest books in the Bible and by that time he was already the adversary and accuser.

Hank Lindstrom has really good podcast at oneplace.com that helps sort stuff out if you are interested.



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 07:43 PM
link   
reply to post by Grandma
 


Yes Lucifer was sent out from heaven because he refused to kneel before a human and started a war in heaven as a protest against Gods command.

lucifer ment that he was the oldest and most favored of Gods angels and shouldn't have to kneel to a human.

But when Lucifer was sent to earth is not easy to say. But it has to be after God created Adam and Eve. Because they where going to honor the creation by kneeling to it. It was Gods command.



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 08:27 PM
link   
Hi
I remember story going something like this.That God said never bow down to anyone but him.Then God says to Satan bow down to man,Satan response is why shall the son of fire bow down to the man of clay.It's Dam if you do Dam if you don't.



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 08:38 PM
link   
reply to post by spy66
 


Thank you for backing me up there. I appreciate it very much.


God Bless,
Grandma



posted on Nov, 11 2008 @ 02:07 AM
link   
how can anyone sort it out if you guys are still holding on to false beliefs?

what does lucifer have to do with satan?

the entire chapter in isaiah is talking about the king of babylon. in his own culture he was considered helal incarnate. helal (the original hebrew, not the lucifer which is latin) was the word used in isaiah which literally means morning star.

according to babylonish beliefs the king was their morning star!

where is the reference to satan?

even the catholic encyclopedia admits the passage is referring to the king!
www.newadvent.org...





new topics

top topics



 
6
<< 1    3  4  5 >>

log in

join