Hrmm, this is worrisome, I think Illuminati and I are going to agree on something.

I've known American Black Muslims, have been friends with them, as an American White Christian. By the way, you wouldn't have faired well to call them African American. They were 100% American and would have told you so. They were no more racist than this White American Christian is. Islam and Nation of Islam is two different things, no more related than Branch Davidians cult was to mainstream Christianity.

As far as KKK and Christianity going together, I can't say as I don't belong, never have and never will. Some folks say that they have a bad rep that is undeserved, but I find it a bit ironic that every Klansman that I've known was a racist pig. Now, if you can tell me how that goes with Christianity I'll eat my hat. But I'm pretty sure we are to love another as we love ourselves, and we are supposed to love our enemy, too. Pretty much covers all the bases, it seems.

[african] american

now thomas, you should know that I was trying to be politically correct.



thanks all for your 2cents, i agree with most of you about the nation being hypocritical.



peace

Originally posted by Truth

i agree with most of you about the nation being hypocritical.

I so agree, Truth this might be the only think I agree with. I would 90% of america. Including bible thumpers, and politations.

Truth, if you read the Qu'ran like illmatic sugests, then compare it to the NOI philosophies of today, you'll see a perversion of what Islam was supposed to be. In essence this is pretty much the same thing Catholocism did to Jesus Christ. Black men adapt so well to the radical NOI philosophy because they see it as a rebellion against the sytem, or the "man".

I'm by no means a christian, but I can respect protestantism more so than a religion, NOI in this case, that promotes the hatred of white people. Thomas, it's fortunate you have NOI friends that aren'tracist, or at least not to your face, but i've had run-ins with NOI extremists, and they're extremism makes them appear cartoonish and irrational.

Originally posted by Illmatic67
What perception does the NOI create to the world?

It doesn't exist to the world, it's only an American thing and it's died off since Malcolm X's assassination.

Died off? Guess you've never been on 79th Street in Chicago!

Blacks are embracing Islam because it is a major religion of Africa, a misconception that all black Africans are Muslim. This is something I don't understand, because Islam was introduced by The Arabs and Ottomans, exclusively in Northern Africa. It is just as African as Christianity, which is also a major religion in the northern and middle part of Africa. People of European descent who are trying to throw the yoke of Christianity off dig into their pagan forefathers roots, as I have. This I understand.

Trying to equate Christianity with slavery and black oppression is is a bit far-fetched.

The very topic of this thread just shows how religion is used to divide people and set them against each other.

Slightly off topic but, I find term "african-american" (and any other xxxxxx-american term) to be offensive in the extreme. You are either an American or you are not. It's that simple. By applying this kind of terminology you make me think that your loyalty is not to America, but to your own little group which you have segregated yourself into. The fact that people use religion to segragate themselves is a pretty big indication to me that Religion is a dangerous thing that people twist for whatever purposes to advance their own secular agendas that have very little to do with God.

As long as you keep acknowledging a difference, there will be a difference. As long as you consider yourself apart and seperate, for whatever reason, you will be.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
The very topic of this thread just shows how religion is used to divide people and set them against each other.

Slightly off topic but, I find term "african-american" (and any other xxxxxx-american term) to be offensive in the extreme. You are either an American or you are not. It's that simple. By applying this kind of terminology you make me think that your loyalty is not to America, but to your own little group which you have segregated yourself into. The fact that people use religion to segragate themselves is a pretty big indication to me that Religion is a dangerous thing that people twist for whatever purposes to advance their own secular agendas that have very little to do with God.

As long as you keep acknowledging a difference, there will be a difference. As long as you consider yourself apart and seperate, for whatever reason, you will be.

... So then what is religion? Do religions believe in different Philosophies, different morals, different gods? Yes! That's the core of religious freedom. To deny we are different is absurd, but to use our differences against eachother is deplorable. Our differences allow for strength outside of conformity. It's ludicrous to suggest we should all look at eachother in the same spectrum, because in reality, like it or not, we aren't.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound

Slightly off topic but, I find term "african-american" (and any other xxxxxx-american term) to be offensive in the extreme. You are either an American or you are not. It's that simple. By applying this kind of terminology you make me think that your loyalty is not to America, but to your own little group which you have segregated yourself into.

I agree with you on the label part. But I disagree on the reasons why.

I am an American of Croatian descent. Our people(yes, our people), just like many of the others who come here, tend to stick with their own kind. Nothing wrong with that. If I were to move to Japan, after 7 years, I can give up my American citizenship, and become Japanese. I will no longer be American, but I will always be Croatian. That is the double edged sword. Those of us with close ties to our families countries of origin have to deal with this, from both sides. I can converse on an elementary level in Croatian. This causes suspicion among those who just arrived in this country. "why can't he speak our language?". The answer:l again, like most who have come here, English became the main language spoken in schools, and outside at play. There were no classes taught in Croatian: they were forced to assimilate. Parents of immigrants want their children to excel, hence English is forced.

I will not call myself Croatian-American. But no matter where I live in the world, I can drop the "american" prefix. I will always be Croatian.

Peace

Nathraq, I respect your views. Loyalty is loyalty and is weak if it can be changed as easily as location. I think first and second generation immigrants have justification for having somewhat divided loyalties in this case

However, to use the African-American example, I know a lot of black people who's ancestors came here a lot earlier than mine, but they still refer to themselves by the double label even after the 5th or 6th generation. This is not because they love Africa or even know much about it. They don't have relatives there. They don't speak the languages of Africa. They don't know the history of Africa. They use this merely to set themselves apart from the rest of us. Of course this is a generalization and there are many exceptions, but it's the overall trend that concerns me.

That's true Ambient. We are in accord.

It's just terrible that labels divide us so. But in reality, it will always be this way. Especially with such leaders as we have, who tout the 'race' case in every election or program they are trying to sell.

I don't believe the NOI teaches hate. I think I'm sort of qualified to say this because I grew up around Muslims involved in the NOI. The hate is already there. The teachings in The Message to The Black Man, which is part of the required reading, aren't so much hateful as they are misdirection.

Just like any religion they rely on good and evil. Since Islam teaches that evil isn't spiritual, but a living breathing man, Elijah Muhammad tells the reader to look around and see who the evil acts come from and you will know the devil. It's all bs, of course, but I've seen the NOI do great thing with people that society has given up on. I've seen convicts become family men and street tramps become ministers. Just like with any religion it's what you take out of it that counts.

Also, I've never seen them discriminate or treat a white person badly. They treat everyone with the same respect and dignity that they want to be treated with. They aren't radical in any way. The don't talk about running white people out of their homes or taking over america. They talk about uplifting the community by uplifting yourself. They talk about education and good health. They talk about owning your own business and owning your own home. They mostly talk about being independant of the government (which is dominated by white people due to majority rule).

A lot of the things that were taught in the early days of the NOI--just aren't taught today.

To those who may compare the N.O.I. with the KKK; that's just foolishness. Even if the N.O.I. does teach "hate" it's nowhere near the degree of what the KKK teaches. And those who take all the teachings of the N.O.I. literally; that would be like taking the Hadith literally, or looking at a Masonic symbol and saying: "this is what it means" without having learned anything about it. This is explained in the "Black FreeMasonary" thread in the Secret Society section. The Qur'an wasn't meant to be totally literal either. Ask the Sufis.

And to "Truth":

Please don't run up on us with that "Christianity is peaceful and Islam(N.O.I. or otherwise) is racist or violent" type nonsense. Christianity probably has a more violent history than every other religion combined(save Judaism).




ONE



[Edited on 31-3-2004 by Tamahu]

Originally posted by Truth

the kkk hate christians, and the burning crosses are an intimidation of ignorance.


illmatic, if NOI is wrong, then why do you post as if one of them are speaking. ive known you for 2 and half years, and race always seems to have something to do with your post, unless you changed.


one time you said the human race started out black [as if it mattered], and it really don't, but if anybody thinks a certain skin color is a curse then thats where it gets out of hand.


peace

I've never posted like I was in the NOI. Sometimes the "race" agenda is very important which is why I talk about. But what I do talk about is how blacks came from glory, how blacks were the first people on earth, how Jesus was black, etc and if you consider that NOI then oh well.

The NOI has taught hate, the KKK has taught hate and murdered. That is the difference. The NOI never lynched whites back in the day.

I have Nation of Islam friends also. Some of them are racist, others not. The reason why blacks have chosen Islam over Christianity is because back in the day, whites were hanging and bombing and shooting blacks. Now the blacks they did this to were Christian.

That's right, white Christians were killing black Christians. After all they are Christian, shouldn't they love on another? That's what I thought, but the color of their skin was more important than their belief of Jesus Christ. You can't blame me for bringing up the race issue when the race issue was the issue back then.

Died off? Guess you've never been on 79th Street in Chicago!

Chicago is the headquarters for the NOI. When I mean died off is the NOI died when Malcolm X left it. It just doesn't get the media attention today as it did 40-50 years ago.

With the NOI I want to talk about another group and that is the 5% Nation or the Nation of the Gods and Godessess.

This is a more kind of "peaceful" NOI movement because they are more into the knowledge than anything else.

The reason why they are called the 5% nation is because they believe 5% of the world's population knows the truth, 85% of the world's population are lost in the darkness and are mental slaves and 10% of the world's population controls those 85%ers.

Malcolm X was shot by black muslims after preaching against their ways, and deciding to become orthodox. He saw flaws in the teachings of Elijah Muhammad, basically encouraging segregation, saying white men are the devil, etc; he instead wanted all people to love one another...anyway, that was back in the days, when the Nation of Islam was very anti-white, and they would also order hits on people who spoke out against them...now it isn't like that at all, but I still think that most who join it do join because they fit in the group (being black)...some of their beliefs are quite far out there if you ask me.

[Edited on 31-3-2004 by Shoktek]

Do african americans join islam because they see it as a black religion and christianity as a white

If they did, that would be a stupid reason to jump into a religion.

Originally posted by Shoktek
Malcolm X was shot by black muslims after preaching against their ways, and deciding to become orthodox. He saw flaws in the teachings of Elijah Muhammad, basically encouraging segregation, saying white men are the devil, etc; he instead wanted all people to love one another...anyway, that was back in the days, when the Nation of Islam was very anti-white, and they would also order hits on people who spoke out against them...now it isn't like that at all, but I still think that most who join it do join because they fit in the group (being black)...some of their beliefs are quite far out there if you ask me.

[Edited on 31-3-2004 by Shoktek]

Incorrect.

However the Black Muslims were the ones who actually squeezed the gun, his assassination was ordered by the United States government, especially the CIA.

A week before his assassination, Malcolm X publicly was going infront of the United Nations to charge the United States with the genocide against the Native Americans and South Africa for the mistreatment and racism.

Malcolm X, in his last weeks, wrote about how he was being followed and chased by people he had a guess were from the CIA. Malcolm X was a paranoid manaic.

The facts are in his pilgrammage to Mecca, two white men in the CIA followed Malcolm everywhere he went and they tapped his hotel phones.

Tne fact is Malcolm was eating at a restaurant in Egypt and he was later rushed to the hospital and almost died because his food was poisoned. He identified the waiter who brought him the food and the managers at the restaurant said there was no one working at their restaurant who looked like the person Malcolm described.

The fact is French authorities didn't allow Malcolm X to set his foot on French soil in 1964 because the French Government discovered a plot to assassinate Malcolm when he got off the airplane.

The fact is that the day he was assassinated he was giving a speech at the Audubon ballroom in Harlem. Well guess who was supposed to open for him? Martin Luther King, Jr. Yep, him. Him, and along with a choir and other speakers cancelled on Malcolm on the last minute.

An hour later, MLK gave his fake interview saying he's deeply saddened by Malcolm's death. MLK knew he was going to be assassinated and did nothing about it.

Malcolm X was taken out by the CIA.

It's best to take my word for all this because Malcolm X is my idol.



[Edited on 3-31-2004 by Illmatic67]

Originally posted by Illmatic67
Incorrect.

Of course malcolm X was being watched by the CIA, and maybe he was taken out by the CIA...but the black muslims did pull the trigger as you said, and there hasnt been any real evidence to back up this theory about the CIA killing him...the nation was watching him, and had death squads out to get him, and all of the nation ministers were violently speaking out against him and so forth...he even went to the FBI saying there was a conspiracy to kill him; they had been monitoring him too of course. The popular opinion and fact as it is now is that he was killed by the nation of islam, ordered by Elijah muhammad....so don't just dismiss it as "incorrect" when you are going by some unproven conspiracy theory

We will never know the truth. Even with the Cointelpro papers are released to the public most of the major info will be blacked out. It's pointless to argue over who Killed Malcolm. I've heard folk in the NOI stumble and stammer their way through the tale of Malcolm's death. Some even try to justify it. I doubt that it was muslims the guys that pulled the trigger were ex-muslims and probably informants for Cointelpro.

Illmatic: the NOI is far from dead. While the mass movement has faltered and its become some what of a joke around the black community, it still remains a safe haven for young black men that have been chewed up and spit out by the system.

The teaching of knowledge of self as god is powerful. We need the NOI in our communities. Without it we lose the largest avenue of rehabilitation of drug dealers. Christianity is useless when it comes to reaching out to young black men. Most of them don't even try anymore. Their teachings are seen as weak anyway, and they are compared to Islam. Islam says, you are god. That is the difference, and that is why so many young men turn to Islam or the NOI because it gives them control over their destiny. The NOI teaches love for self--not hate for another being, though they pump that Yacub garbage it's secondary to gaining control of your surroundings and your life, raising your children and uplifting your community.

If you have never been inside a NOI mosque then you can't really say what goes on there. I have, and I'm telling you I've never heard them teach hate. They definately don't teach violence or murder.

Originally posted by Saphronia

Illmatic: the NOI is far from dead. While the mass movement has faltered and its become some what of a joke around the black community, it still remains a safe haven for young black men that have been chewed up and spit out by the system.

The teaching of knowledge of self as god is powerful. We need the NOI in our communities. Without it we lose the largest avenue of rehabilitation of drug dealers. Christianity is useless when it comes to reaching out to young black men. Most of them don't even try anymore. Their teachings are seen as weak anyway, and they are compared to Islam. Islam says, you are god. That is the difference, and that is why so many young men turn to Islam or the NOI because it gives them control over their destiny. The NOI teaches love for self--not hate for another being, though they pump that Yacub garbage it's secondary to gaining control of your surroundings and your life, raising your children and uplifting your community.

If you have never been inside a NOI mosque then you can't really say what goes on there. I have, and I'm telling you I've never heard them teach hate. They definately don't teach violence or murder.

I've been inside a NOI temple many times. As a matter of fact, it was me going into the NOI temple that had me into Islam before I got into the true orthodox teachings of Islam.

However, the NOI has taught hate, and you just said it, it starts with the Yacub theory.

But I definetely agree with you with the NOI rehabiliating many blacks from alcoholism and drug abuse. It has worked and it does work. And we are gods. The Qur'an says we're gods and so does the Bible say it. We are gods.

That's why I've gotten more into the 5% Nation then the Nation of Islam.

But don't sit there and say the NOI doesn't teach hate because it did and it probably still does. I wouldn't know because I left the NOI alone.

And there is a lot of evidence of the CIA taking out Malcolm X. I just mentioned them.

I wasn't referring to you, Illmatic. It's obvious that you've had some exposure to the teachings. My point is that every religion teaches some bad and does some good. For people to totally dismiss the NOI without knowing what they are about is ignorant.

The scripture in the bible that you are referring to is Psalms 82:6 "I have said that ye are gods and all of you are children of the most High."

Truly, I agree that man is god, but it isn't taught that way in christianity. Whether you succeed or fail is all left up to some obscure being in the sky. It's the way it is taught that makes the NOI, and Islam in general, a more capable religion.

I was attempting to answer the original question in this thread. The draw to Islam is knowledge of self. It has little to do with hate once you wake up. Even muslims that leave the Nation remain muslims rather than turn back to christianity because once you accept that you are god of your existence there is no way to turn back to the whimsical meaningless idolatry found in most christian churches.