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If Obama Wants A Piece Of My Pie, Will You Take An Extra Slice Of His?

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posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 12:42 PM
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According to the state of Hawaii, that's exactly what they did regarding universally mandated health care coverage for children. I mean let's be reasonable, most of you know the outrageous cost of health Insurance, so if you had a chance to insure your child for free, on the government, would you?

I have two children and with the economy lagging I certainly would want free health care, every little bit helps especially if my wealth is going to be "spread around." The last time I looked Hawaii was a state. If their health care plan failed after just 7 months why does Obama believe government mandated health care for our country will succeed? Theoretically it is a great idea but on paper it just doesn't add up.

Interested to see what others think.

Thanks for your time,
Paxnatus

links: www.cnn.com...

articles.latimes.com...

[edit on 6-11-2008 by paxnatus]




posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 12:48 PM
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Originally posted by paxnatus
The last time I looked Hawaii was a state. If their health care plan failed after just 7 months why does Obama believe government mandated health care for our country will succeed? [edit on 6-11-2008 by paxnatus]



You know democracy doesn't always work either. Should we give it up after it fails?


Secondly, Hawaii may be a state, but it's a completely different animal. For example, most people can't even afford to own a house there. Lots of people live with others which are not family just because.

Also, if you are not fromthe island, don't expect to start a business in Hawaii either. Oh did I mention beat up Howlie day?


Anyway... the net of what I'm trying to say is that you can't assume that the plan Hawaii tried and failed would be the same plan as Obamas, you can't even assume that if it was, that it would fail nationally.

The world is much more complex than that.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 01:47 PM
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You better eat your pie now before he has a chance to get a slice. Invest in barter items.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 01:51 PM
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are there alot of wealthy people in hawaii?



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 02:06 PM
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Originally posted by HunkaHunka

Originally posted by paxnatus
The last time I looked Hawaii was a state. If their health care plan failed after just 7 months why does Obama believe government mandated health care for our country will succeed? [edit on 6-11-2008 by paxnatus]



You know democracy doesn't always work either. Should we give it up after it fails?


Secondly, Hawaii may be a state, but it's a completely different animal. For example, most people can't even afford to own a house there. Lots of people live with others which are not family just because.

Also, if you are not fromthe island, don't expect to start a business in Hawaii either. Oh did I mention beat up Howlie day?


Anyway... the net of what I'm trying to say is that you can't assume that the plan Hawaii tried and failed would be the same plan as Obamas, you can't even assume that if it was, that it would fail nationally.

The world is much more complex than that.


Please do not think I want this to fail, or that I think we should just give up.
That is not what I am saying. You are helping make my point though.

If a state cannot manage universal health care how is a country going to?
To quote you "The world is much more complex than that"
According to LA Times this is why reform of national health care fails.

"* Health care varies greatly across the United States, making consensus hard to come by. In Texas 24% of the population is uninsured; in three Midwestern states and Hawaii, fewer than 10% are uninsured. Massachusetts spends 70% more per person on health care than Utah does.
Health maintenance organizations enroll more than a third of the population
in three states, including the nations largest, while three other states have only a single HMO and one has none.

It suggest that even if it succeeds, health care reform will not come from a single bill that transforms a $2.5-trillion dollar industry but from repeated legislation of modest scope en acted over many years."

While Obama has a good idea in theory, the kind of "change" that he is talking about is going to take years.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by paxnatus

If a state cannot manage universal health care how is a country going to?
To quote you "The world is much more complex than that"
According to LA Times this is why reform of national health care fails.



The same way that an ant hill made of 2Million ants functions better than an ant hill made of 2Thousand ants.

If you take a look at the principles of emergence and organized complexity you will find that its not as simple as the size being a factor. The overall higher level behaviors of a system do change depending on the amount of elements in the system, but not on a linear scale.

Sometimes things which don't work on the micro level work perfectly on the macro level, and vice versa.

Once again.. it's just not that simple.



[edit on 6-11-2008 by HunkaHunka]



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 02:53 PM
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For what I read about the issue of health care in Hawaii was that it was not regulations of who was to get the health care and it was not guide lines either.

So as with everything you are going to find those that abuse the system.

Just look what happen with our financial system, when is not regulations corruption set in.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 03:18 PM
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For example, most people can't even afford to own a house there. Lots of people live with others which are not family just because. Also, if you are not fromthe island, don't expect to start a business in Hawaii either. Oh did I mention beat up Howlie day? Anyway... the net of what I'm trying to say is that you can't assume that the plan Hawaii tried and failed would be the same plan as Obamas, you can't even assume that if it was, that it would fail nationally. The world is much more complex than that.

I just wanted to reply to deny some ignorant comments about HI here. Sure housing is more expensive in HI but a lot of people in the country can't afford to own a house at all - regardless of where they live. People all over the country live with people that are not family - they're called roommates. OK, Your comment about not being able to start a business there if you aren't from HI is total BS, dead wrong. Also the word is 'haole' and there is no such day to 'beat anyone up'. Again total BS, dead wrong. You shouldn't be giving people the wrong impression about a state if you don't know what you're talking about. carry on



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 03:26 PM
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reply to post by MetatronCubensis
 


Metatron... ok, so the best man at my wedding was born and raised in Hawaii, and while we were both out there chillin, we were talking about all of this. The business owner thing is obviously not a legal thing, but it is evident in from many of the people I spoke to.

Also, the Haole thing.. (sorry about the spelling) is either true or one heck of a urban myth which all of the hawaiians I spoke with said was true but fading. It was mainly due to the arrogance that the Navy perosonnel exhibited while stationed there which gave the haole's a bad name. And at least in the school my friend went to.. they had a beat up Haole day.

I'm not trying to disparage HI by any means, and I apologize if you think I was. Just stating that Hawaii, like any other locale, is a much different animal than the nation at large. And just because something suceeded or failed there doesn't mean it would at the national level as well.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 03:38 PM
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It's probably a good idea just to wait and see what happens. Just because a politician promises something during a campaign doesn't mean it will ever happen, good or bad. They're just vague promises to get votes.

The U.S. has a very complicated and bureaucratic government that makes it very hard for big changes to be made. So I'm not worried about it either way.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 03:45 PM
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I think about the only major thing in healthcare for the next four years is the expansion of SCHIP and Medicaid. I think they will increase the minimum needed to qualify to get more uninsured covered. Maybe if he gets a second term, he will try for his original promise.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 03:55 PM
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boo hoo...

I ME ME ME .

ME?

YES ME ME ME AND jESUS!



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 03:57 PM
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Originally posted by Velvet Death
You better eat your pie now before he has a chance to get a slice. Invest in barter items.


oh the horror...

bush bush>>>

you GUYS SOUND LIKE A PILE OF SOGGY BINTS....

MAN UP!

SEMPER COODER!


six

posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 03:58 PM
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reply to post by HunkaHunka
 






You know democracy doesn't always work either. Should we give it up after it fails?


The only thing is....... We are NOT a democracy, and never have been. We are a republic. The founding fathers knew that a democracy would never work.

Sorry. Not trying to be picky.


[edit on 6-11-2008 by six]



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 04:03 PM
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Originally posted by HunkaHunka

Originally posted by paxnatus

If a state cannot manage universal health care how is a country going to?
To quote you "The world is much more complex than that"
According to LA Times this is why reform of national health care fails.



The same way that an ant hill made of 2Million ants functions better than an ant hill made of 2Thousand ants.

If you take a look at the principles of emergence and organized complexity you will find that its not as simple as the size being a factor. The overall higher level behaviors of a system do change depending on the amount of elements in the system, but not on a linear scale.

Sometimes things which don't work on the micro level work perfectly on the macro level, and vice versa.

Once again.. it's just not that simple.



[edit on 6-11-2008 by HunkaHunka]



O.k. I can see your point regarding micro/macro etc. I am not advocating failure. However, you cannot overlook history:

Every 15 years or so, proposals to reform the entire U.S. healthcare system seize national attention. The cycle has endured since President Franklin D. Roosevelt considered proposing universal health coverage as part of the Social Security Act. Presidents Truman, Carter, Ford, George H.W. Bush and Clinton all produced proposals for universal coverage. Though different in detail, they shared one key characteristic – failure.

Each time, supporters of reform believed, popular clamor would drive elected officials to end the national embarrassment of millions of uninsured and rein in health expenditures that were needlessly high and bought less than they should. Each time, reformers were right in their indictment and wrong in their political judgments.

Large-scale health reform is large-scale income redistribution, and the politics of redistribution is the politics of trench warfare. Unless healthcare spending is greatly increased – something no one wants – boosting spending on some groups means cutting spending on others. Increasing one kind of care means cutting another. Those who stand to lose services can be counted on to invoke high-flown reasons why reform is retrograde. To be sure, advocates of each approach to reform claim that increases in efficiency will result if their ideas are adopted. But these claims are hard to document, and they would take years to realize.

I don't think we are going to see this particular "change" in Obama's term.

articles.latimes.com...



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 04:16 PM
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Originally posted by mentus modulaous
boo hoo...

I ME ME ME .

ME?

YES ME ME ME AND jESUS!












I love jesus! Do you have a point to make or just being inflammatory for attention and post count?

[edit on 6-11-2008 by paxnatus]



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 04:23 PM
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Originally posted by Nohup

The U.S. has a very complicated and bureaucratic government that makes it very hard for big changes to be made. So I'm not worried about it either way.


I don't worry either, because the only way Obama can do what he has promised is cleaning Washington from the the same corporate bureaucrats that make the laws in congress in order to pull something in favor of the American people.

When was the last time that congress has done anything for the good of the nation?



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