Calling all ATS'ers: Time to deny ignorance regarding Obama and the NWO

reply to post by sweatmonicaIdo

I don't even know why I try. Its clear most of you will never take off your tin-foil hats.

Conspiracy theories are just ways for the average person to pretend like they have no role in society's failures. No wonder they're the refuge of kooks.

You know, I let the first one pass, but a pattern has developed with you of name calling that, quite bluntly, negates any argument you may have. People resort to name calling when they have no valid response. I won't waste my time or endure any more of your insults. You've made my ignore list. Congratulations.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
Here's my personal opinion:
If our political candidates were really predetermined, then wouldn't Hillary have won???
She's the one who is married to Bill Clinton and has all these connections.
I don't buy that Obama was a predetermined candidate because it would have made much more sense for the NWO to put Hillary in.

First Hillary is the NWO candidate, then obama gets elected and now suddenly everyone's on his back. How convenient for the tin-foil brigade. Basically, anybody who gets elected is an NWO operative.

Everyone here is twisting that into being some sort of slavery thing that Obama has got going but I personally am kind of excited to be doing something for my country, rather than have to sit around complaining about Bush all the time.

The conspiracy theorists don't want to be responsible for anything. Which is why they accuse our leaders of instituting slavery. Its their justification for not standing up and doing something important and meaningful with their lives, whatever it may be.

WE ELECTED HIM
And by us electing Barack Obama, we have proven that we can learn from our mistakes.

As far as the tin-foil hat brigade is concerned, there are no elections.

Very well. Let us indeed deny ignorance with full realization that it shouldn't only go outward, to other people but also inward, to our own self & ego...That our perception of reality wil never be 100% correct/perfect/complete and therefore will always need to be completed by others' perception so that we can avoid falling into the ignorance of dogmatism (at best) or blind-faith (at worst)...

But wait...Doesn't that mean that I have to LISTEN to & RESPECT others' perception of reality, rather than sweeping them all under the carpet as a bunch of unrealistic/unproven/useless fearmongering?

Doesn't that mean that if I have a different perception of reality regarding Barack Obama, then the ONLY way I can truly DENY IGNORANCE, is to accept the fact that there will always be people with differing perception than mine???

Doesn't that mean that, regardless of how 'childish' or 'matured' people's perception is, no matter how 'eloquent' or 'unrefined' the way they express it, the only way I can avoid dogmatism/blind faith/ignorance is to accept that everyone has THE RIGHT to speculate and that my own perception is also SPECULATIVE in nature???

Doesn't that mean that, IF I really want more and more people to share my view or optimism/pessimism regarding reality, I will -FIRST- have to try to see & respect the differences that exist between me & 'them' to enlarge my own view and make it more BALANCED??? SECOND, that I will have to engage their different views with TOLERANCE rather than ridicule or slandering???

reply to post by invisiblewoman


I couldn't agree more Invisiblewoman

Your view reminds me of what Lord Byron(?) once said...
Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely

Wish I could give your post 10 more stars

What constitutes a conspiracy ?

From Websters:

Conspire (verb) - To plan secretly, an unlawful act.

Conspiracy (noun) - An agreement amongst conspirators.

Saying that there are no conspiracies also implies that our world and society is ab solvent of absolutely any illegality, lawlessness or wrongdoing and/or secrecy.

Lets look at some recent documented and widely publicized cases of lawlessness in recent US history.

Watergate - Richard Nixon
Iran Contra - Oliver North
Whitewater - Clintons
The Keating 5 - John McCain

All of which were illegal acts devised in secret (w/o congressional approval or common/public knowledge beyond said participants) which in each instance resulted in criminal prosecution of said participants.

reply to post by nh_ee

Saying that there are no conspiracies also implies that our world and society is ab solvent of absolutely any illegality, lawlessness or wrongdoing and/or secrecy.

A star for your post.
Let's also not forget one of the biggest conspiracies of this decade-Osama Bin Laden and his conspiracy to destroy America.

reply to post by nh_ee


You need to read all my posts in this thread thuroughly to see how irrelevent your post was.

I distinguish between conspiracy with a lower-case "c" and conspiracy with an upper-case "C." conspiracies are what you just described. They happen all the time. Nobody is above or below them. Conspiracy, however, is what most of the people on ATS are referring to. To let there be no more misidentification, here's how conspiracy theory is defined in Wikipedia:

A conspiracy theory attributes the ultimate cause of an event or chain of events (usually political, social or historical events), or the concealment of such causes from public knowledge, to a secret and often deceptive plot by a group of powerful or influential people or organizations. Many conspiracy theories state that major events in history have been dominated by conspirators who manipulate political happenings from behind the scenes.

That is conspiracy with a capital "C" and this is where everyone crosses the line from reality into fantasy. I say a distinction is necessary because a proper study of history as well as sociology reveals that political, social, and historical events and the concealment thereof are not caused by secret plots and incredibly powerful people or behind-the-scenes manipulation. Rather, all these events are the result of actions by the entirety of societies, not by just certain people. This is especially true in the United States, where we do, like it or not Tin Foil Brigade, have a role in deciding the direction of this country. The fact that on a macro level we buy into and sustain this power structure means that if there is some grand conspiracy at work here, then we are part of it and we should point the finger at nobody but ourselves. Example? Take a wealthy upper-middle class man who owns a nice big McMansion in suburban Kansas City and affords this lifestyle with a professional occupation (business, health care, law). Such a person experiences significant autonomy in his life, has a good living, and is overall doing well in life. He obviously has little political power, but he goes along with the system because he is benefitting from it thus far and that thus forms a part of the power and influence needed for such a power structure that sustains itself.

So, does that mean everyone who's a professional and makes a good living is suddenly an agent of the NWO? Now you've went from saying power, REAL power (whatever that even is) lays in the hands of a few people and a few organizations, to saying that it exists in the hands of everyone who fits a certain description. You go from the Majestic-12 to the Majestic 12 million. These theories make no sense and even if they did, they are constantly shaped and reshaped in order to make the argument seem a bit more plausible than it really is.

Let me reiterate, I do believe in conspiracies (lower-case "c") and as I stated at the outset, they happen all the time. There was conspiring invovled in the Iraq War and there was conspiring all throughout the presidential election. However, the scope and motivations, as well as the mechanics of the conspiracies is very different from what many on ATS say. The conspiracy theorist states there are diabolical agendas at world domination at work here and there are secret cabals that hold the real power and people like the president are just puppets. This is just flat out wrong.

Take a look at Operation Northwoods, quite possibly the most "diabolical" thing the the U.S. government has ever conjured up. More specifically, take a look at where such an order came from: drafted by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, then approved by the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, before being shot down by President Kennedy. It did not come from some secret shadow government or the "powers that be," etc. If this was a Conspiracy, then it was the worst kind. How on Earth did such a diabolical plan a) fail, and b) become revealed to the public? Finally, take a look again who the people who came up and would've implemented such a plan. These people yield incredible military and political power. So if Operation Northwoods was carried out, then these people would've been simply fulfilling a social role, a role that is the result of the power structure inherent in American society and their achieving of that position, NOT because there is some secret master plan at work. The proverbial "screwing over the American people" is something done through the same old, run-of-the-mill social processes that allow bullies to run the schools and sororities to have only beautiful people. Would a conspiracy theorist ever accuse a school of orchestrating acts of bullying as part of some secret plan?

The lesson here is to always be aware and to never give the power elite, which is the government, military, and big business, any room to breathe. The power structure that has developed here in the U.S. allows abuses of power and conspiracies to take place and they will do so when the opportunity presents itself. It does not, however, teach that there is a big bad terrifying global conspiracy at work and that we are not responsible for any actions. In the real world, abuses of power and conspiracies are the result of the system. In the conspiracy theorist's world, the system is a result of abuses of power and conspiracies. Very flawed thinking on their part.

To be honest, I'm surprised I haven't been accuse of being an NWO agent yet.

[edit on 8-11-2008 by sweatmonicaIdo]

Well I really think this subject should be brought up again in about a year,then see how things have changed,I smell a rat but I'll wait to see how things have transpired,I have a feeling we will still be fighting in the middle east,maybe the Democrats will have a new Bin Laden who knows

reply to post by sweatmonicaIdo


You're absolutely right and it's nice to hear a fresh perspective which is quite accurate. I completely admit, this site originally brainwashed me into believing many of these conspiracy theories. What woke me up from it was realizing that you could never tie all the pieces together. They were just random bits of world domination ideas. And one of the main flaws in the NWO conspiracy is that if the rich were enslaving the poor and the poor keep getting poorer, how will they have any money left to keep making the rich richer? And if the rich had some diabolical scheme to enslave the poor, why would the rich want to give up all their material possessions for some type of fascist leadership? It just doesn't make sense.

There are many unanswered dilemmas to this day, the two biggest in my mind being 9/11 and UFOs. 9/11 was, at the very least, the result of severe negligence. UFOs still remain a phenomena that I don't believe we may ever have an answer to. We do know the government spends hundreds of billions a year on black budget projects, though.

Barack Obama is neither a dilemma or a conspiracy... he's a symbol of America's desire for change and only time will tell if he is the right person for the job or not. And those of you who have said I'm an Obama maniac, I was for Ron Paul up until a few days before the election, and I cast my vote for the Libertarian party a month ago as a substitute. So please, spare me the accusations. Only after hearing Ron Paul's conversation with Alex Jones was I really glad that the cards fell where they did.

reply to post by pjslug


Starred. Big time.

Originally posted by pjslug
reply to post by sweatmonicaIdo

 

You're absolutely right and it's nice to hear a fresh perspective which is quite accurate. I completely admit, this site originally brainwashed me into believing many of these conspiracy theories. What woke me up from it was realizing that you could never tie all the pieces together. They were just random bits of world domination ideas. And one of the main flaws in the NWO conspiracy is that if the rich were enslaving the poor and the poor keep getting poorer, how will they have any money left to keep making the rich richer? And if the rich had some diabolical scheme to enslave the poor, why would the rich want to give up all their material possessions for some type of fascist leadership? It just doesn't make sense.

That right there is the ssence of all that is wrong with the conspiratorial view of the world. Any examination of history and society shows that all civilizations, no matter how draconian or authoritarian the power structure, are sustained by the powerful who are sustained by the lower classes who buy into and support the system.

The poor are indeed getting poorer and the rich are getting richer. However, this is due to the nature of the current socioeconomic system, not as part of some proactive attempt on the part of the wealthy to screw others.

There are many unanswered dilemmas to this day, the two biggest in my mind being 9/11 and UFOs. 9/11 was, at the very least, the result of severe negligence. UFOs still remain a phenomena that I don't believe we may ever have an answer to. We do know the government spends hundreds of billions a year on black budget projects, though.

There is definitely an untold story behind 9/11, but it was NOT part of some larger agenda at world domination. I can't even begin to explain why such a theory is false.

I do believe UFOs do have some mystery element to it and that the government does indeed know more than it is letting on. But it is not part of an attempt to subvert the American people.

Barack Obama is neither a dilemma or a conspiracy... he's a symbol of America's desire for change and only time will tell if he is the right person for the job or not. And those of you who have said I'm an Obama maniac, I was for Ron Paul up until a few days before the election, and I cast my vote for the Libertarian party a month ago as a substitute. So please, spare me the accusations. Only after hearing Ron Paul's conversation with Alex Jones was I really glad that the cards fell where they did.

I myself was a huge Ron Paul supporter (still am). I even met the guy. But when I see him on Alex Jones, I do have to wonder what is really inside the man. So far, he has not said anything that indicates to me that he buys into the conspiracy theories, like Pat Buchanan does. I ultimately voted for Chuck Baldwin and he definitely buys into the conspiracy theories.

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
There is definitely an untold story behind 9/11, but it was NOT part of some larger agenda at world domination. I can't even begin to explain why such a theory is false.

I do believe UFOs do have some mystery element to it and that the government does indeed know more than it is letting on. But it is not part of an attempt to subvert the American people.

Please do explain about why you think the 9/11 theories are false. There are many. Some are absurd, some are quite plausible.

With regards to the UFO mysteries, I have to disagree with you there. There has to be an attempt to subvert not just the American people, but the world in general, and I think it comes from somewhere higher like the Vatican. There are archaeological remnants that have not been disclosed to the public that may share some insight to our past. And just the same, there have been hundreds of high-clearance government officials (and thousands in general) that have cited specific information that is being withheld from us. I'm not saying all are credible (i.e. Clifford Stone leaves me very dubious) but they can't all be lying. If underground installations do exist where this type of technology is being worked on, that is a deliberate withholding of information from the public that conceals our very place in the universe... and I could think of no single, greater concealment than that.

And what about the inventors with new, technological breakthroughs (i.e. Stan Meyer) that have been killed?

I think there are many secretive factions of the government that have other agendas, such as keeping the public repressed. The church has done that for thousands of years, so it is not a new concept. The wealthy have always been in control and work alongside the governments. I just don't happen to agree with crazy, world domination conspiracies, but I definitely think that some areas of government withhold critical information from the people that could change the world.

Originally posted by pjslug
Please do explain about why you think the 9/11 theories are false. There are many. Some are absurd, some are quite plausible.

It depends on what 9/11 theory you consider a conspiracy and what you don't. For me, if the government had any culpability, its in the fact they had (limited) advance knowledge. I feel like the government screwed up royally and were at least partially responsible for letting it happen. I don't think there's any way around this theory to be honest. The government clearly knew it could happen.

Now, do I believe they allowed it to happen? I do not believe so. To me, this is as big a risk as conducting a false flag operation and orchestrating the 9/11 attacks themselves. Unless one is part of the Tin Foil Brigade and you believe the U.S. government is omnipotent, there is no way the U.S. government is able to, or believes it is able to get away with such a monstrosity.

There are some other reasons, but the above are the very basic ones why I believe its not a matter of government evil and more a matter of government incompetence and failure. This would clearly explain the cover-ups and the poor investigations, as well as fit into the discussion of the power elite and how they work.

With regards to the UFO mysteries, I have to disagree with you there. There has to be an attempt to subvert not just the American people, but the world in general, and I think it comes from somewhere higher like the Vatican. There are archaeological remnants that have not been disclosed to the public that may share some insight to our past. And just the same, there have been hundreds of high-clearance government officials (and thousands in general) that have cited specific information that is being withheld from us. I'm not saying all are credible (i.e. Clifford Stone leaves me very dubious) but they can't all be lying. If underground installations do exist where this type of technology is being worked on, that is a deliberate withholding of information from the public that conceals our very place in the universe... and I could think of no single, greater concealment than that.

And what about the inventors with new, technological breakthroughs (i.e. Stan Meyer) that have been killed?

I think there are many secretive factions of the government that have other agendas, such as keeping the public repressed. The church has done that for thousands of years, so it is not a new concept. The wealthy have always been in control and work alongside the governments. I just don't happen to agree with crazy, world domination conspiracies, but I definitely think that some areas of government withhold critical information from the people that could change the world.

You hit it right on the head when you said "world domination." The litmus test for me regarding conspiracy theories are a) How big is the secret? b)How could they keep the secret? c)Why would they keep the secret? d)Does such a theory work to their benefit?

I most definitely agree with you to the max that secrets are often deliberately kept. However, this is VERY common practice. The definition for "top secret," for example, is information that could cause "exceptionally grave damage" to national security if disclosed to the public.

Having said that, I consider the investigation of UFOs and their relationship to the U.S. government a victim. The discussion has been absolutely trashed and littered with so many of this absurd, out-of-proportion exaggerated theories that have no basis in fact and are part of a deliberate disinformation campaign or clearly had origins in what were false and unsubstantiated claims.

However, there is a very real side to the relationship between our government, the governments of the world, and the UFO phenomena. Going back to our litmus test on conspiracy theories, the UFO conspiracy is definitely a big secret. However, in a society such as ours, it does become very easy to get distracted and not pay attention to such an issue, one that has been violated by so many false and outlandish theories. Just look at how many people are so oblvious to the events in Iraq or to important historical events such as Operation Northwoods. Going back to our litmus test, the UFO conspiracy is a well-kept secret because the secret itself is not very elaborate: all they're doing is hiding things. There is also very little of it there, the way I see it. The 9/11 conspiracies, on the other hand, are very complicated and convoluted. Compared to our ability to get distracted, as well as the decline in the power of the alien invasion storyline in the modern consumer society, its very easy to see we have as much a hand in the conspiracy as the government does.

But once again, the UFO conspiracy as well as the other ones you refer to are not that difficult to keep. I believe they are done in order to maintain societal order, advance and enhance their worldview, and in order to protect national and institutional security. But once again, and you would agree with me on this, they are NOT kept secret for the purpose of world domination.

Good discussion going here. Keep it up.