Same-sex marriage ban wins; opponents sue to block measure

reply to post by Mercenary2007

and oh yeah when you try to prove your claim that these groups have not tried to do the same thing as gays

I didn’t say that, I said they have not been accepted by society. Pedophiles are in no way accepted in our current society, gays being increasingly accepted has not changed this.

[edit on 17-11-2008 by rapinbatsisaltherage]

reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage


Let's see,,,,,,,,,
If a man shoots a man in the back that was already dead, did he commit murder? He did in his head, but is he a murderer?
If I look at another woman and think ooh she's hot, am I an adulterer? Is it the action or the intention or the thought?

reply to post by Christian Voice


You do realize that thoughts are completely different from a sexual attraction someone can not control? When did you wake up and decide to be straight? You just decided today is a good day to pick an orientation? I seriously doubt it, you were what you are and your attraction allowed you to see what you are.

reply to post by Christian Voice

No they are not, they become homosexual when they become sexual.

Sorry CV, I know we usually agree in some part, but I would assume you have this one wrong. While I cannot state what a homosexual feels, I find it logical to deduce the feelings are similar to those of other humans, simply misdirected. That said, it is logical as well to say that since my sexuality is evidenced by an attraction to women, the sexuality of a homosexual would as well be evidenced by inner desires toward males.

I have been a heterosexual all my post-pubescent life. There was a period after puberty before I lost my virginity (ugliness has it's disadvantages ), but that did not mean I did not feel the desire as much as someone who was actively engaged in sexual activity. I was still hetero.

Truth is truth CV. Unless an actual homosexual states me wrong, I believe the above to be the truth.

TheRedneck

reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage

A Surrogate Court is a specialized court which deals with matters of probate and the administration of estates. Sometimes referred to as Probate Court, such courts consider only those cases that deal with the distribution of deceased persons' estate. The Surrogate Court issues the Grant of Probate or, if a person dies intestate, a Grant of Administration, thereby giving court approval to the personal representative to deal will all matters of the estate. In contested matters, it will be this court which will examine the authenticity of a will, and will decide who is to receive the deceased person's property. In the case of an intestacy, this court determines who receives the deceased’s property under the law of its jurisdiction. The Surrogate Court will then watch over the procedure to distribute the deceased’s assets to the proper beneficiaries.

Surrogate courts are commonly referred to as Probate Courts, however depending on the jurisdiction, courts that deal with such matters are sometimes also referred to as orphans court, or court of ordinary.

Probate Court is a court found in some jurisdictions which is primarily concerned with the proper distribution of the assets of a deceased. Probate Court exists to determine the validity of wills, enforce the provisions of valid will, prevent malfeasance by executors and administrators of estates, and provide for the equitable distribution of the assets of persons who die intestate (without a valid will). In other jurisdictions these functions are performed by Chancery Court or another Court of Equity. Probate Courts may also deal with conservatorships, guardianships, name changes, marriages, and adoptions.

The surrogate court can be petitioned by interested parties in an estate, such as when a beneficiary feels that an estate is being mishandled. The court has the authority to compel the executor to give an account of his actions.

The judge of a probate court is sometimes known by another name, in accordance with the jurisdiction's historical tradition. In New York, the court with jurisdiction over probate matters is the Surrogate's Court and the judge is the Surrogate. In Georgia, the Probate Court was formerly known as the court of ordinary and the judge was the ordinary.

Probate courts

and here is for the state of California
California Probate courts

wow looky there. the role of a probate court. i guess you have never had a relative die and never had to go through the process.

Where? I showed you something that explains how managing family medical issues and insurance can be difficult for gays and you post me a bunch of links that do not mention civil unions or domestic partnerships. Let us not forget even those are not legal in some states.

i owe you an apology so i'm sorry you didn't directly say that it was cheaper to get insurance as a family but you did quote a source that says this

These benefits range from federal benefits, such as survivor benefits through Social Security, sick leave to care for ailing partner, tax breaks, veterans benefits and insurance breaks.

But insurance is cheaper for a single person than it is for a family
using the link i provided earlier here are some quotes i got tonight.

single
Single


Family straight
straight Family

Family gay
Gay family

now if you see in the 3 screen capture i took it is actually cheaper for 2 males with 2 kids to get insurance than it is for me and my wife with 2 kids!

Missouri does not allow even civil unions however right now the reconized Gay marriage performed in another state.

Not the same, in your example a judge is taking away a right protected by the constitution. How was this the case with the judge you refer to? It was not. They were giving rights and overruling a discriminatory ban.

They are the same in the context that a judge went against the majority and legislated from the bench taking the people and the elected officials out of the loop.

You brought up the slippery slope argument with no evidence. Produce evidence and I will have no trouble countering it, so far you have none.

I didn’t say that, I said they have not been accepted by society. Pedophiles are in no way accepted in our current society, gays being increasingly accepted has not changed this.

i see you don't understand the difference between the possibility and stating something as fact. Once again i said it was a possibility they could seek to have there forms on marriage legalized. You stated fact that according to you those things have never happened in a state or country that allows same sex marriages. See when you state something as fact the burden of proof is on you to produce the proof. when you say something is a possibility its just that a possibility and not something you are claiming as fact. However History has told us that at least polygamists have tried to have their form of marriage legalized. hence why it is now illegal to have more than one spouse.

so i ask again where is your proof those things haven't happened in other states and countries that allow same sex marriages. do you have any proof from a neutral source or are you just repeating something you read on a gay rights site?

until you can provide proof from a neutral source on this Statement of fact from you i'm calling BS!


[edit on 11/18/2008 by Mercenary2007]

[edit on 11/18/2008 by Mercenary2007]

reply to post by Mercenary2007

i guess you have never had a relative die and never had to go through the process.

What are you rambling about now? Please show me any info that specifically mentions gay families, civil unions, and domestic partnerships.

They are the same in the context that a judge went against the majority and legislated from the bench taking the people and the elected officials out of the loop.

The judge is not held to the will of the majority, if he/she was there would be no need for them. They have their position and are allowed to overturn discriminatory bans for a reason; the majority is not always in the right.

i see you don't understand the difference between the possibility and stating something as fact.

Since when do we support laws on unfounded possibilities? Your opinion of an unfounded possibility has no legal argument. It has no evidence to support its claim at all.

See when you state something as fact the burden of proof is on you to produce the proof.

It hasn’t. I can not find a site for you that says we did not legalize these things, sorry it does not exist. Look up the nations in which it is legal and their laws, google them, if not I will get you a link you can read. Your slippery slope argument is supported with no evidence, please produce any shred of evidence that fear of the possibility is valid.

so i ask again where is your proof those things haven't happened in other states and countries that allow same sex marriages.

Again the burden of proof is on you, you brought up this argument, show me where it has been legalized? I can’t find one country in which it has, simply look up the countries where it is legal and read the law of the land. Stop trying to back track, you’ve been defending this silly argument from the start.
Fine, you want to not support your claims? You produce an argument with out any evidence and it is my job to counter your baseless opinion? Fine, I just find it childish that someone who has made this argument mainly about legality is focusing it on something as trivially as your silly slippery slope argument and expecting me to counter non-evidentiary opinions.
Marriage:
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
www.ask.com...
en.wikipedia.org...
Partnerships (some with the same exact rights as marriage):
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

Now you tell me where in the law of any of these lands gay marriage or nation wide partnerships have caused pedophiles to marry children, people to marry animals, and brothers to marry sisters. I don’t see it. This "what if" slippery slope argument you are trying to pull can be used on many, many things. But there is often no credence or legality to it.

[edit on 18-11-2008 by rapinbatsisaltherage]

reply to post by TheRedneck


Alright Redneck, the majority of your posts show you to be a Christian am I right? As a Christian you would know that homosexuality is wrong. As a Christian you would know that the Bible says in Old and New Testaments that it is an abomination. You would know that Christ himself sets the standards for the marrital relationship. Given these things how can you say that homosexuals are natural and these are simply feelings they have? That insinuates that they are born that way. Why would Christ have someone be born an abomination?
This is my theory on homosexuality :
To start lets state this,
Sow a thought and reap an action,
Sow an action and reap a habit,
sow a habit and reap a lifestyle.
Evil unnatural thoughts enter our heads. We are no more responsible for the thoughts that enter our heads than for the ocean meeting the shore. When we linger on those thoughts that's when we finally act on them. When we act on them again we form a habit. Once we continuously indulge our habit we begin a lifestyle.
What causes these thoughts in most people? An overbearing or non existant or abusive parent, a sexual trauma of some sort from childhood, the entertainment industry, a severely poor self image. There are a lot of factors that can bring on these thoughts. Trouble is teenagers are so confused about everything and their hormones are going crazy that all it takes is one extra thing to push them in the wrong direction.
We cannot allow the immoral minority forever change the sanctity of marriage.

reply to post by Christian Voice


Ummm... I think you might wanna go back and re-read what I said CV.

What I said was that homosexuality and heterosexuality are both desires as well as actions. In other words, one may be a heterosexual and a virgin at the same time, if their desire (lust) is toward another of the opposite sex. I assume the opposite side of the coin: that a similar thing is true for homosexuals.

Marriage should remain between a man and a woman. After much soul-searching, I must agree. (My apologies to those friends of mine who feel different, may we remain friends regardless.) But that has nothing to do with the point I was addressing, or the points you made.

ThaRedneck

reply to post by Christian Voice


Tell me exactly WHERE in the new testament , jesus says , IN HIS OWN WORDS that homosexuals are an abomination ?

So when the christians were a minority getting thrown to the lions , that was okay ?

Chritians are not the majority religious sect on this planet either . They are split into so many subdivisions that you are in fact a fractious ,judgemental , fear mongering minority .

And who cares about the old testament ? anyone in their right mind can see its contradictory , unscientific and full of bogus, ridiculous claims .

reply to post by reconpilot


Jesus says in his own words that a man should leave his parents and become one with his WIFE. He also says that sex is for a man and his WIFE to explore. Paul says in the New Testament that homosexuality is wrong . The books of the New Testament were inspired by God. There is nothing that anyone can ever say or do to make homosexuality natural or right.

My personal Opinion

Now I'm a beleiver of the philiosphy that words are meaningless but I understand that to many other people words have a tremendous amount of meaning,

The problem is that neither side is willing to compromise and give any ground and you end up with a big riggamaroll about what this means and that means and the same thing can mean sometrhing totally different in someone elses eyes.

For those still reading my little rant of my personal opinion is almost over

Now I have no problem with homosexual marriage myself but it seems the people of California disagreed (I don't live in californa) so the law is changed and many people seem to be rather cheesed.

But thats democrasey for you!! if you dislike a law then make a proposition the next time around and have another vote, possibly more people will be on your side.

Now for lack of better words the anti homeosexual christians (other religions too) and the pro homosexual (various groups) peoples opinions are probably not going to converge any time soon but I would suggest people try and cordial to one another's beleifs no matter how much you disagree.

Tolerance!!! You don't need like what they do,, You just have to tolerate.

but I have been known to be wrong on many many issues before my opinion may not carry much weight but whatever you do you should realize that

the following has been my personal opinion and is not meant to be contrued any way as fact or advice in any form.

ya'll have a great day.

reply to post by TheRedneck


Being part Australian I should explain that among friends we are notorious for calling a spade a spade . So if it seems like i'm just trying to nail your *Snip* to the coffee table , I just want you to know that while we may disagree on SOME things , I really value the QUALITY of your dialogue . Trust me when I tell you ,my friends nail mine all the time , any chance they get. But it keeps us real when we get up on ourselves so its understood.....

I know you find inspiration in the new testament and I do respect that . I dont have a problem really with what Jesus himself is purported to have taught > there is much that is honourable in it .

I DO have a problem with churches who pervert his teaching for their own ends .I dont like to see the trust of the young and innocent abused .
It upsets me because I have seen that abuse to often and YES I do go off the deep end sometimes when people stick their faith in my face .

In some way or another we are all at some stage or in some way a 'minority ' of some kind . We all have our quirks , our handicaps and shortcomings.

I was quite shocked and a little saddened that you consider yourself 'ugly' . I think you are being way to harsh on yourself .
There is nothing worse than living in isolation because of low self esteem .
I knew an old vet in Ohio who kinda reminds me of you . He was a bit surly , but he was REAL and honest to a fault . He just made me laugh out loud with his antics and his devil may care attitude to pompous snobby people . He was kinda looked down upon by a lot of people because having been thru so much he had no time for BS and 'fancy talk' .

He had a toilet bowl installed right next to his bed so he would not have to go to far during the night to pee. 'you'll undertsand one day when your old son '.
I was digging a ditch one day with a coworker and he rocks up in his beat to hell pickup , lets off a volley into the dirt right near us with his mini 14 and says ' what the hell are you two *Snip* suckers doin on my land ?! ' Crazy stuff like that just cracks me up laughing . And he knew it ,which is why he did it of course .

There really is no easy cut and dried way to aproach a subject like this .The spartan in me is a little leary of a certain type of homosexual . The ones for whom power and ego are the main drivers .

I can also understand from a strictly medical /personal hygiene point of view the attitude of some to *Snip* intercourse . But you know , its just a matter of exercising common sense and caution . Even with 'normal' sex you should use precautions unless you have a stable commited relationship with a partner you can trust . Thats why for gay men in particular , marriage is actually something that should be encouraged .

As far as the gay women go ,how can anyone call that repugnant ? There are no perils regarding penetration so its the safest way to have sex you can think of . If the old testament 'god ' finds that an 'abomination' well he can get stuffed . I find jehovahs general behaviour far more repugnant than two chicks making out . He may be the god of the jews and christians but he sure as hell aint my god . he's just a burnt out warlord facing imminent termination . Good riddance to bad rubbish .

During world war two my aunt was the main driver of the special operations executive . Now it was no secret to anyone really that her sexual tendencies were often 'saphic ' but let me tell you something , you would not best her in unarmed combat or pistols !
But off duty , a sweeter kinder more thoughtfull and generous person you could not hope to meet . You see there's a lot to be said for men and women being a more enlightened balance of masculine AND feminine rather than ridgidly male/female characteristics.

Very few can master the art of gun katta ,my aunt TAUGHT IT . So you see , within our family we NEVER judge a person by sex . Wild west gunslingers would not last a nano second against my aunt .

Speed of mind is far more important than brute strength . That woman could do anything any man could in the air ,at sea or on the ground . If any one was stupid enough to say a certain aircraft was a piece of crap ,she would give a flight demo that would leave them peeling their jaws off the ground .

My aunt was like a second mother to me . So you know ,just from my own experience and the way i was brought up I just dont really have a problem with gay marriage if its what makes them happy .

The free world owes a huge debt to people like her . You dont know how many gay and bi people put their own happiness on hold for your freedoms .

And one last thought .All living species evolved from single sex ,single celled organisms . We ALL started out androgynous . sexual polarity is simply the female sex's way of adapting to harsh competitive environments .

Men are in many ways a back up plan , women are the mothers of life . we are just an evolutionary adaptation with undeveloped breasts !

When you find that special partner , LOVE is all that matters .There is a big difference between drowning your loneliness with anonymous casual sex and making love to someone who makes you feel whole again .


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[edit on 11/19/2008 by semperfortis]

Originally posted by Christian Voice
reply to post by reconpilot

 

Jesus says in his own words that a man should leave his parents and become one with his WIFE. He also says that sex is for a man and his WIFE to explore. Paul says in the New Testament that homosexuality is wrong . The books of the New Testament were inspired by God. There is nothing that anyone can ever say or do to make homosexuality natural or right.

I dont give a damn what that woman hating misoginist 'st paul' said . All that weazel ever did was hand over the teachings of jesus to the Romans so they could pervert it beyond recognition .The 'Holy' Roman catholic church and all the horror that came with its creation . st paul..... yeah right .

WHERE EXACTLY DOES JESUS NAME HOMOSEXUALS EXPLICITLY AND CONDEMN THEM ?. Chapter and verse please .

Your god sucks , he murders, he destroys , he packs jealous tantrums .
dont even try selling your god to me as a god of love .

reply to post by reconpilot

You are definitely full of contradictions. I really don't know how to respond to your post, save to say that while you appear to be trying to soothe the argument, you still do not understand what the ire was about.

It was about respect. That's what the entire gay marriage issue is about. That's what every civil rights issue is and has been about. That is why I am so torn by this situation.

When I meet someone new, the first thing that happens is I size them up. I afford them a certain amount of respect based on that initial meeting and their appearance, actions, etc. After that, how much respect they get from me depends on thier actions and attitude. The more I respect someone, the more I will respect their feelings and the more I will be diplomatic when discussing difficult issues. On ATS, the T&C forces me to show some measure of diplomacy whether or not I believe it to be needed.

I expect others to act similarly. So when you (or anyone else) begins to post hate-filled misrepresentations (such as your response to Christian Voice above) with references to the 'old man in the sky' and silly things like that, it tells me that you have little concept of my religious beliefs and so little respect for those beliefs (and for me by extension) to consider me something less than fully human.

When someone does this, I can usually just shrug it off. After all, the idiocy rate among humans seems to have no limit. But when those engaged in this amount of disrespect simultaneously are demanding respect from me, well, let's just say that is no way to garner my respect. It will usually cause the opposite reaction.

I feel sure that vet friend of yours feels the sme way. Every vet I have known has felt this way. Perhaps that's why I gravitate toward them (and them toward me). No BS, no putting on airs, no rash judgmentalism, just simple respect for each other.

I will give a short anecdote about 'Crazy Harry' that illustrates this. Harry was a pipefitter where I worked as an engineers aide many years ago. Pipefitters are a unique group themselves, but Harry stood out anyway. He couldn't have stood over 5'8", and if he weighed over 150 it would shock me. He was a Vietnam Veteran, and had been a POW for about 16 months. If you looked in his eyes, you saw a misture of sadness and ferocity that I still to this day cannot forget.

Despite being the smallest guy in the group, Harry instilled some sort of fear in his co-workers. I saw him try several times to make small talk with his co-workers, but each time he seemed unable to do so. Small talk did not really interest him, and social interactions with others seemed out of his reach. He lived alone, I found out, in a crumbling little shack not far from the plant, and while several of his co-workers knew where he lived, I never found one person who had been inside his house.

I always admired the man's dedication to his work and tenacity toward whatever task he had set in his mind to accomplish. I talked to him, and heard stories that would make your heart stop beating.

One day, Harry had gotten it into his head to finish a particularly large pipe support. He asked the crane operator to lift it to the top floor of the plant for him, but was told he would have to wait. A little while later, as I sat at my makeshift field desk in front of the main stairwell, I saw a mass of structural steel come edging slowly up the stairs. Under that 300-pound mass of steel was a 150-pound man with a fire in his eyes you would not believe: Crazy Harry. Our floor was 100 feet from the ground level.

On another occasion, I was sitting at the field desk when two white hats came running by me and hit the stairs at a dead gallop. A few moments later, Wayne, Harry's welder, a young kid just out of school, came up to me and said "I need you to come get Harry". I walked back to where Harry had been working and there stood a small man, seemingly frozen in stance, holding a chipping hammer over his head, tears of anger steaming down his cheeks and shaking from every muscle in his body. I walked up to his flank (no way I was ever going to walk in front of that!) and quietly said "Harry?" The man looked around at me and in a voice that reminded me of a small child who had just had his toy taken by a bully, said, "They tore up my support."

He gave me the hammer, and we both went back to work. Later on, I was invited by Harry to come visit him sometime. I did. Never have I had a friend who was more supportive of anything that mattered to me, and never did I feel so unconditionally accepted. We respected each other, I him for his service and hardships endured for me and for his unique way of looking at life, and he me for some reason known only to him.

Never once did he put down my beliefs or my way of life, although he himself was pretty torn about spiritual matters. Never once did I try to force him to go to a church or follow my path. I offered to pray for him several times when he would be having a hard time with life, and all he ever said was "thank you".

Now, as I am many years older (and hopefully wiser as well), I look back on Harry and on other friends I have known throughout my life and compare today's activities to their ways and ideals. I see nothing in today's society that can compare. So my lack of physical beauty is irrelevant; I don't want to be a part of your society, where sarcasm and disrespect are the prevalent mode of debate. If I could, I would have become a hermit many years ago.

Perhaps it is a good thing we have met in this way. Perhaps you will actually take what I have said and think on it. Perhaps, but if you choose not to do so, that is none of my concern. Your life is your own, just as my life is my own. No one can force you (or anyone else, for that matter) to accept their advice.

I only pray (yes, pray, to my God Jehovah, not to some silly artistic interpretation an artist dreamed up to paint somewhere in antiquity) that people will again learn about respect for others as opposed to antagonism and insults. I have to pray, because I see no way we can do this in and of ourselves. We have become too arrogant, too self-involved, and too intolerant.

Short of a miracle, you and I are about to witness first hand another of those sad eras in human history. We can learn from it and break the cycle, or we can suffer and fight and destroy each other in our haste to enforce our own lifestyles on others - from both sides. Don't squander any pity on me; humanity needs it much more.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by Christian Voice
reply to post by reconpilot

 

There is nothing that anyone can ever say or do to make homosexuality natural or right.

How about Romans 14:14 written by Paul and Inspired by God?

"I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. "

What were you saying about right and wrong again?

reply to post by TheRedneck


From your perspective yes , it would appear that I am full of contradictions Red , but could you not say the same thing about your friend harry ? I am not going to presume to speak on his behalf but perhaps you should try to put yourself in his shoes and ask why he was spiritually conflicted ?

Its like this friend . When you give your heart to someone either in love or friendship , you cant just take it back and act like it never happened .
Harry lost many friends in combat ,that much is obvious . It also appears that he felt betrayed and let down by someone in the chain of command .

It may also be that his belief in god was severely tested if not destroyed by his experience of betrayal .

Survivor guilt has a tendency of making men withdraw almost completely from civilian society . If he ever did try to explain himself fully , you would not have understood because YOU WERE NOT THERE .

I know you like to think your christian message of love and redemption will heal his wounds and i think you are at least sincere in wanting to help , but from his perspective you would be a naive kid who just is not capable of understanding what he went through .

Its not your fault .But there is a huge gulf between your world and the world people like harry and I know . Most civvies are chronicly naive about the realities of war and the true history of this planet .

You think Jehovah is the all loving god. I know him for what he really is . A down at heal dethroned warmongering ET from a place very far from here . The reason Obama looks so shell shocked after his intel briefing is because everything he thought he knew before he became president elect is BS .

Most vets dont talk because A , they will loose their pensions and end up in leavenworth or worse . B, if they did tell you the truth you will ,like a typical brain washed civvy assume they lost their marbles and blame it on PTSD . So they are cursed by physical, psychological and 'minority' wounds . Official denial becomes civilian denial and the lie just continues on.

Thats why vets 'talk treason' amongst themselves on memorial day and ignore the civilian population . Why ? ,because they often feel betrayed by your civilian ignorance of the truth and your close minded attitude .

Very simply , your blind clinging to the bible as 'absolute truth' leaves no room for someone like Harry to say to you , 'its all *Snip* man ! '
You are not qualified to speak on behalf of any veteran by virtue of being a christian evangelist .Im sorry , but you dont understand . But maybe when the shtf you will be forced to.


So they go to work , do their job and carry on because its all they have .

Its not unusual ,your story , its typical . But your world view is censored by the church and state .It has to be so warmongers like Bush and Obama can mobilise public opinion and naive young men to go against yet another 'enemy of the state' . They also need to project blame away from their own ransacking of the publics faith and purse ,so prop 8 gives the people someone else to be judgemental about .

OPEN YOUR EYES RED . think for yourself . Put that damn bible down for just five minutes and use your own native intelligence . The gov and church collude all the time to make war justifiable . And if that means taking the teachings of jesus and perverting them beyond all recognition ,THEY WILL DO IT .

How many millions have died in the name of the vatican ?


many CLAIM to do good works in jesus name but in truth they are abusing his words just like he predicted they would .

Until you open your mind and learn to question objectively ,you will remain a pawn of the church and state . But if your really honest with yourself YOU ARE INCREASINGLY CONFLICTED ,YOU ARE BEGGINING TO QUESTION.

What use is a true disciple without discernement ?. Isnt that what Jesus urged his disciples to exercise ?

The US gov can get to just about any ex serviceman who dares to say to much , but they cant get to me , though god knows they have tried .

Ignorance of the truth is undertsandable (forgive them father for they know not what they do ) but lack of compassion is not .

Next time you hang out with your vet friends , put the bible aside JUST FOR ONCE . Because your god , if he loves and cares about you so much , has a damn funny way of showing it .

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[edit on 11/19/2008 by semperfortis]

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reply to post by reconpilot

You may be right about what Harry was going through. I do know he felt betrayed, not so much by the military, but by society when he came home. He gave everything he had to this country, and those he fought so hard to protect treated him like dirt.

And here again, you make an assumption: that I use the Bible to beat people up. I do not do that. I use the Bible as a way to keep my moral footing when an issue arises that I am not able to resolve in my own mind. I read it to find the answers to life's problems and to know when I do wrong. So far, it has been perfectly applicable.

I remember Harry asking me one time why God lets people suffer so much. All I could do is hang my head and say "I don't know". That's not a denial of God's love; That's an admission of ignorance on my part.

The 'treason talk' you speak of does go on, but it's not about treason. It's about what they see as wrong with the country, from their unique perspective. I have been privy to these types of talks many times. And perhaps they do see me as a 'naive kid' in this respect, but they seem to trust me enough to not let that hold their tongue. I have heard the worst of the worst.

'Butch' also is a Vietnam vet. He served three tours in 'Nam as a Drill Sergeant. We talk a lot about wars, tactics, and weaponry. We tend to actually agree on almost every point, although we do see different on a few issues. When those differences emerge, however, I treat him as anyone else I debate who has a wealth of knowledge. He has told me openly that is why he calls so much. I respect him by doing that.

One of those areas is religion. Butch is a Christian, but that doesn't mean we always agree with what the Bible says. I debate him on this, he debates me on it, and when one of us has to go, we always say the same thing to each other: "I really enjoyed the talk." Neither of us has this habit of saying things we do not mean.

You see, we respect each other, deeply. I know what kind of man he is, just as I knew what kind of man Harry was. They know me. In hand-to-hand conflict, Harry could wipe the floor with me before I knew what had happened. We both knew that. In engineering, I could run circles around him. We both knew that. He taught me some self-defense moves (which I a glad to say I have never had to use; they all are deadly). I taught him some things about engineering that helped him.

There's little I can teach Butch. He, on the other hand, has taught me so much I cannot begin to tell you all of it. So I return the favor the only way I can: by giving him an ear he can freely talk to, about whatever he needs to talk about. That's the thing he needs most.

Stop and think about yourself for a moment. Exactly where have I ever condoned any human tragedy because of the Bible? I have condemned some of the atrocities committed in the name of God; that is not the same thing as condemning God Himself. I have never criticized you for your beliefs. I have even tried to steer clear of religion in this discussion, and yet, you still post things like this:

You think Jehovah is the all loving god. I know him for what he really is . A down at heal dethroned warmongering ET from a place very far from here .

I have a feeling if I were to verbally attack your family or a close comrade of yours, you would get angry. So why would you expect me to act any differently when you attack my God?

You don't. Since you want me to address this point, and since I have finally gotten enough nicotine in my system to kill a herd of elephants in my attempts to calm down over this Prop 8 nonsense, I will do so: You strike me as someone who is themselves frustrated and feels abandoned by your country. Somewhere along the way, your deepest held beliefs in the way things were supposed to work have been shot down and destroyed. All that is left is anger, at whoever it was that instilled those beliefs and they who showed you the truly ugly side of humanity. The former were probably your parents, and anger towards one's family is most difficult for people to accept. The latter are those who you cannot reach to vent your frustration on. So you lash out, in anger and disgust, at the One who is, in your opinion, responsible for the pain you feel: God Himself.

You can make most religious people angry by attacking God, and this somehow fills that void inside you... for a time. Misery does indeed love company. But then someone dares confront you with God again, and so you lash out again... and again... and again... and each time you feel better for a moment, but that void returns far too quickly.

Look in a mirror. That is not a victim staring back at you, unless you want them to be. That is a human, with all the insecurities and worries and ideals as the rest of us. And they need to be appreciated for who they are. They need acceptance. They need companionship. They need a sense of worth.

Well, guess what? All those things that human needs, are right here. There's so much abundance, that all you could take in a lifetime will not reduce what is left. All you need do is to take all that you need is reach out your hand and take it. There will be no condemnation. There will be no judgment. There is only peace and happiness and contentment.

I think you need to talk. Maybe not to me, but me is all I have to offer, and don't worry: my name is not Jehovah. Check your U2U. I can reach halfway.

TheRedneck

Posted this in the breaking news forum.

California Supreme Court to hear Prop 8 challenges....

And, off to court this goes.....

[edit on 11/19/2008 by skeptic1]