**Important Message to ALL my fellow Conservatives** (please read)

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posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 11:28 PM
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reply to post by djpaec
 


The great purge has already begun, the Necons are scrambling around to lay blame on get this Mcain's nicety for the loss yesterday. See this Neocon propaganda trash for proof.

I wonder what's the reason the republicans congress was sent packing a few years ago?


Uh gee...
Never once do they think that perhaps the American people are sick to death of their young men and women coming home dead in body bags due to their stupid unjust war, or that they have created a leviathan state here and abroad, or that they love to bail-out their Wall Street buddies...

NO, to the Necons, it's everybody else's fault and has nothing to do with their policies.

-Nope, no escaping this one guys, heads will roll-



[edit on 5-11-2008 by Gateway]




posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 11:29 PM
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Thank you for posting this - it's a nice change for me to hear things like this. I didn't think there were people on ATS with this state of mind.

It was so sad watching the concession speech last night. I wasn't the biggest McCain supporter at first - honestly, I only started liking him after the primaries. It's so weird but I could see that both McCain and Palin really truly wanted this and I don't think they are planning to mess up their party for good after Bush's antics. Obama, on the other hand, I think is very well capable of doing something nuts - which scares me a bit. Plus, he was clearly expecting a victory - I didn't see any emotion or happiness on him whatsoever when he was talking.

You're right though. A lot of people automatically now associate the Republican party with war and waste and mistakes. I know for a lot of people I've talked with the past year the Republican party was simply dead to them. Ugh... ignorance!

I was sure I was going to be voting democrat this election - that didn't happen.

You make a good point. People wish for someone to just come and fix all their problems and when someone comes and starts reciting line after line all the things on one's christmas list.. they're instantly drawn to the person but they don't bother to think even one more step further to see the consequences or the actions that must be made.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 11:45 PM
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reply to post by djpaec
 


I agree with you. I am normally conservative on the social issues. But Most of the values of the conservative movement (neocons included) are deeply rooted in strongly held religious fanaticism that can make people believe things that are actually just as crazy as the islamic terrorists that flew planes into our buildings on 9/11 because of their own spiritual beliefs (regardless of whether or not brainwashing was involved).. When people believe a certain religion or religious ideaology and then use that belief as a platform for political viewpoints, those same people will always try to blur the line between church and state. In fact, if you are devout enough, you might welcome a fusion of religion and politics. And that is just downright scary......

Religious people are some of the scariest, most evil people on this planet whether they realize it or not (which, if they are really that evil, they inevitably do not realize it because they are blinded by faith).. Politics is one thing, religion is another.. IMO, You can't use religion as a platform for political views because your political views will always be unfairly biased, you will never welcome change in religion OR politics, and you will never truly be able to welcome some kind of real political change for the better if it contradicts your spiritual views... That's the whole reason why most people in the bible belt are conservative Republicans. The neocon movement goes hand in hand with crazy, fanatical religious beliefs..

-ChriS



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 12:14 AM
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As a person of faith I would like to add a couple comments here. It would be nice to be able to pin the blame on people of the christian faith but there is a HUGE problem with this. Just as the Bush's, Cheyney's, and Rumsfelds of this world have hijacked the GOP. The Falwell's and other televangelists have hijacked our faith. None of these men properly represent what the majority of christians believe in. While true that men like Falwell and Hagee have large followings(as did Bush at one point), they do not represent even the majority of the faith. I as well as many of my fellow believers have been disgusted to watch what these people have done to our country, only to have these supposed men of faith promote the neoconservative doctrine from the pulpit with what is tantamount to hate speech blanketed towards all muslims. Just the same I suspect all walks of life in some way have been infiltrated by people who do not represent the core base. I can guarantee if it happened to the republicans it has happened as well to the Democrats. Just the same as it has happened to Christians, it too has happened to Muslims and Jews. To figure out what is happening we need to look to those who remain independant voices not swayed by either side. What do all these voices have to say? What are Ron Paul, Jesse Ventura, and other truly independent voices (no I don't neccesarily mean Independant Party) have to say about what is happening? It is the same thing the independent voices of faith have been saying all along. Power over the globe is being consolodated. Is it a coincidence the Democrats ran a candidate based on a platform of being a uniter? Is it a coincidence that Sarkozy and the EU are calling for a new global economic system? Is it a coincidence that the US is turning over control of its own military forces to the EU through the EULEX missions? Is it a coincidence that our current economic system has bit the dust? I suppose its also a coincidence that the governments of the world are being merged into "unions", all with the real power being circumvented back to Europe. A prime example for this is the "new" Union for the Mediterranean. This "union" started as the Barcelona Process, which was a trade and aid deal with Europe. If countries in the region met the mandates set forth by Europe, they would let them in their little club. This "union" gives Europe the ability to influence policies and laws made within the region through economic manipulation. It also requires all countries within the region to comply with mandates set forth by EU politicians, otherwise they can turn off the flow of funds into said non complying country, thus causing economic collapse of said country. I suspect the new economic order that is being proposed will do more to further spread this type of control into other countries. All of us are complaining that our own little sub-groups have been subverted from their foundation by men who don't even remotely represent us. Most of us have been yelling about this for years, the problem is we have been to busy yelling to hear the innocent people on the other side of the fence yelling about the same type of problem. To busy pointing fingers instead of stepping back and looking at the big picture to see why our little corner of the world had been hijacked. I sadly, have to shoulder some of this load as well. We all have been deceived. I feel it is time to stop worrying about our own little corner and start looking at what is happening to the guy who doesn't neccesarily share our same section of the street. Its time to ask why is there a common complaint of manipulation by those that are supposedly the face of our own little section when in reality we don't even recognize who these people represent. None of us can afford to point fingers at another side here and say "Well, why didn't you keep these people in check?" because we are all guilty of it. We all thought these people had our best interest at heart. In short we were all naive. I don't know if we can even begin to try to stop them, but until we all take responsibility for letting this get passed us and begin to show our brothers and sisters how we ALL have failed, we will never be able to try.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 12:16 AM
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you live ,all other people of the world , in the "corporativism " ,it's about 300 hundreds years , didn't you notice , and what you write make me understand that we will never get out from anything , because we don't have the skill to understand what we are in , and where , the only suggestion i can give , is don't boulder about the matrix they put inside your head , care just about what you have around and you can touch , the people you love, because if you write this things you will never understand that the differences you underlines are just to tentacles of the same octopussy .
take care and try to match the infos you got between them and don't stop to the streaming infos ,history included .reply to post by Gateway
 



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 12:18 AM
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reply to post by jdl79
 


Nice post. It's a point of view I rarely see expressed.

I'll have to reassess some of my own conclusions based upon what you have written.

Thank you for that.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 12:22 AM
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reply to post by jdl79
 


But don't you think that is in large part due to their stance on being anti abortion? I think the Christian right will ALWAYS vote for the Republican candidate despite all the other short comings.

Of course it would be interesting to see just how many in the Christian right voted for Baldwin and not McCain.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 12:27 AM
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reply to post by Gateway
 


You underestimate Obama and why people voted for him. Have you noticed that a lot of people are passionate about Obama, particularly the young? He exudes not only intelligence and eloquence, but also goodness and a set of principles that go beyond politics and take him into the realm of (potential) greatness. If you can't see this, you are really missing something. Try looking again. Note the number of people he attracts to his venues, the interest around the world, and the fact that 90% of his funding came from small donors.

Obama's policy appeal lies in part from a desire to rebalance the nation, which has teetered too far toward the wealthy and powerful, and selfish shortsighted policies that benefit people today and the expense of future generations.

Obama wants to make healthcare and education accessible to all. How anyone can argue against that is beyond me. These are basics upon which a vigorous capitalist system can be built where every child has an opportunity to succeed. For people not to have access to these things is to deny them the right to thrive. The Republicans appear to want to concentrate opportunity into the hands of a wealthy elite. Not very appealing to the average man.

Obama wants the rich to pay more of their fair share in taxes. Right now we have a system that provides a kind of welfare for the rich. Despite their higher income tax rates, they pay a lower percentage of their income in taxes than do the middle and working classes who are really struggling right now. For example, Warren Buffett paid 17% on his income while the secretaries in his office pool paid up to 30% on theirs. Fair?

The Republicans have become the party of 1) the rich, 2) the Christian right and 3) the people who buy the propaganda the Republicans put out. The true Republican base however is the rich. They just pander to the other groups.

The campaign tactics used by the Republicans in this and past elections exhibit an extremely low moral compass. They try to smear and cultivate fear and anger toward their opponents. They repeat lies over and over--even after they are called on the carpet.

You rightly complain about the focus on war but have you ever considered to whom is all the war money is going? It's not going to the soldiers or the Iraqis. It's going mainly to the military industrial companies and ancillary corporations that provide things like private security and construction. This war has represented a massive transfer of wealth from the American people to these corporations (i.e., to that portion of the Republican base).

All this talk of terror is just BS to 1) get the public to go along with the transfer of wealth and 2) take away our freedoms (i.e., concentrate more power and control in the executive branch).

Obama actually wants to get Bin Laden (i.e., the boogie man) and put an end to the war. This is not part of the Republican play book. They want an endless war to endlessly enrich their base.

The bailout was another amazing thing. Paulson has doled out about $100B so far to banks and brokers, who have stated they plan to hand out guess how much in bonuses to themselves? (The answer is about $100B). I hope Obama taxes them in April--a special TARP recovery tax on the financial industry.

In any case, you have a large group of naive Republicans (group 3 above) who believe in terror and who believe the Bush tax cuts benefited them--when actually they disproportionately favored the rich. They are being played for fools by the Republicans power brokers.

They care nothing about social security or medicare liabilities; nothing about infrastructure or global warming problems that will cripple future generations.

Meanwhile the wealth gap increases, the average man is teetering on the edge of bankruptcy and the rich want even more.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 12:27 AM
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Neo-cons?Forget them.No bottles.Toss out that ideology.Something occured to me today.Isnt Islamic extremist neo-con also?I mean they both exploit religion and the under educated die because of it.
But you know what?As a conservative im not taking this lightly:
www.telegraph.co.uk... .html
Religion.This really belongs in our hearts and no where else.Well after a speech it sounds good so thats ok.
(god bless you and America)
Jihad can easily apply the conflict within ones self making good or bad decisions.

Nice quote here that i agree with.
Socialism is not a dirty word, it is a system of organization. It is as good as the people managing it. There is no such thing as a bad or good system of government or economy. It falls to the people managing the system to insure it is good or bad. (A good King is more beloved by the people than a machevellian President).

Anyways good post



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 12:35 AM
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reply to post by Comind
 


And you overestimate Obama's appeal. Obama was chosen because the alternative was as I've said before is"Bush on Steroids". If the people are given a choice between a kick in the balls or punch to the face, some will chose the kick in the balls, because a punch in the face (i.e. choosing Mcain) would be more painful.

The vast majority of people, which include the independent, the libertarians, and even the disenfranchised conservatives voted for Obama while holding their noses. Look at the staggering numbers who voted for Obama, you think these are ALL Democrats? You're kidding yourself. And like I said 4 years and he's "out", we'll talk in four years and tell me how much of Obama's socialism will appeal to the American people, then.

[edit on 6-11-2008 by Gateway]



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 12:37 AM
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I think real conservative republicans should just bail on their party. It's tainted.
There's a movement happening right now with the Libertarian and Constitutional parties that should be pretty enticing to any true conservative. There's no reason that republicans can't be a party of change in their own way by simply kissing their party goodbye and moving on to the more approachable forms of conservatism.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 12:39 AM
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reply to post by jdl79
 


You have a return key please use it.

And yes I know it seems like attacking your religion. But please look a few pages back. Do you interpret the bible literally? I don't know about you but I went to a Religous highschool, and I was taught to find the morals and read deeper into the bible and find the meaning. Not that Moses literally split the sea, nor that god made the earth in 7 days. Which for all we know 7 god days is 1,000,000 earth years, time is relative afterall.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 01:19 AM
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Excellant post!Neo-conservatism?Dont bottle it.Get rid of it.Moderate muslims out there should do the same with their "neo-cons".I mean its common sense that if something is harmful to humanity as a whole,toss it.
I find myself strong on DEFENSE(not offense),controlled spending,small govt and no wiretapping.When a govt is afraid of us then trust can be built.

As cooperation increases around the world,it will be very hard for extremists,neo-cons,and other evil individuals to hide anymore.In addition both liberalism and conservatism can co-exist side by side peacefully.Once the world is united by we the people ,then we can talk about global defense from off world.Then solar system.Then galaxy.Humanity's return to space is now a top priority and i dont think i have to explain why.

[edit on 6-11-2008 by Justice11]



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 01:29 AM
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reply to post by Gateway
 


its funny you think that obama will wreck your country , bush did a real good job on your country , you have nothing to fear but fear itself



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 01:30 AM
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reply to post by Gateway
 



Thanks looks interesting.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 01:32 AM
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Loam,
Thank you for the kind words. It was exactly this type of thought and sentiment with which I made the post. I believe as human beings we all have a duty to one another and whether we agree or not on all issues we should all care enough for one another to at least stand up when we see this type of injustice. If you happen to look deeper and find you don't agree than I can respect that, at least you took the time to hear me out and consider my point of view.

Th3on3,
While I agree that most of christian faith will always vote republican based on issues such as abortion, I personally cannot see a difference between killing unborn children and provoking the deaths of innocent civilians by promoting tyranous war as many politicians do, and believe this can fall on both sides of the aisle. Neither party fairly represents the beliefs I hold dear. Therefore I can not bring my self to solidly support one side over the other. This election in particular was unsettling for me as someone of my belief was not represented at all. For this reason I as well as the ones stated in my previous post I could not bring myself to vote for anyone. I know I am going to get hit with the argument that since I didn't I haven't the right to complain, but I cannot bring myself to support attrocities perpatrated by anyone. Hence the dilema I found myself in.

Djpaec,
My answer to your question may seem that I am trying to side step, but I will try the best I can to explain my position. No I do not believe our planet was created in a literal 6 days. I can assert this by looking at the root of the hebrew word for day. Which can mean a given amount of time taken to complete a process, not just a literal 24 hour time period. This also supports the biblical reffrences of Gods perception of time and ours not being the same. So one day could be 24 hours, a thousand years or six million. Truthfully, to me, it matters not how long it actually took. Only that I believe He did so in six steps. As for the parting of the sea in the story of Exodus. I believe that the sea was parted, as to how it was done, I do not believe Moses waved a magic wand and voila the sea parted. I believe God acts and shows Himself through natural occurences. If you have the opportunity check out Exodus Decoded, this is a examination of the story from a archaelogical stand point and tends to be more of what I believe as to how God worked through Moses.

As for other issues that man can not explain away with science or knowledge. I take these matters on faith, and while I am sure there is an explanation for it, I assume our feeble minds have not come into the knowledge to explain the way He worked in these instances. Science and knowledge is constantly disproving what were thought of previously as facts. While I find it interesting to see the way He has worked through out time, I do not see the need to be able to explain every single nuance of every act of the Lord. A constant search for this knowledge only leaves one unsatisfied and never satisfied, always wanting more. So instead I choose to be thankfull for what He has seen fit to show me and always keep my eyes on Him so as not to miss anything new He decides to reveal. Most non believers would call this ignorant, I see it as keeping my role in perspective and am glad to be able to do so.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 01:38 AM
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Wow I really should have proof read that. Sorry for misspellings, it shows how tired I am. With that I bid all a good night, and look forward to continuing this conversation tommorow.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 01:41 AM
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reply to post by jdl79
 


Trust me my friend, you're not what's wrong with the Right. It's people that were in the movie Jesus Camp that is wrong with the religous right. Did you know the Evangelical bible in a lot of cases has a lot of skewed interpretations of the bible. I've even read that the Neo-Cons were instrumental in the wording.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 01:43 AM
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Originally posted by dooper
And as far as Ron Paul. He had zero chance. Absolutely none. If a hole the size of a bowling ball gets knocked in the bottom of my boat, I can go ahead and jump overboard, or I can bail like hell. But I won't spend my time wishing I had a damn patch, looking for one in the catalogue. Some choices are no good choice, but I will be doing something.

We have a saying down here. The closest alligator is the biggest. Obama was the closest, and the only hope was McCain. Not a great choice, not even a good choice. The only choice.
[edit on 5-11-2008 by dooper]


That is where you are wrong. There isn't the false dichotomy of "Either Democrat OR Republican". They are the two likely choices because PEOPLE MAKE IT SO>

This isn't a damn horserace, people. You don't pick who you think is going to win. You don't choose between the most likely to succeed, you vote for WHO BEST REPRESENTS YOU.

Voting with your heart is NEVER a wasted vote, no matter who wants to tell you it is. I do NOT regret voting for someone I full and well knew was not going to win. It was NOT a waste, it was putting my money where my mouth is and sticking by the principals I value in my SELF.

Whoever taught you, dooper, that in "THE REAL WORLD" you compromise your principals because you'll never get who you want in the White House, and that it is better to choose between the Choice that is forced upon you by people with power and money really did you a disservice.

I will never regret voting the way I did this time... because I finally learned that it's not about left or right, or wanting to choose who wins so you can say "I voted for that guy!". It is about yourself, and nobody else. Not what the media says, not what others say.

And even if my vote wasn't counted because the system was rigged, I know in my heart I supported someone who deserved support.

Neither Obama or McCain deserved mine.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 01:54 AM
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reply to post by Grumble
 


I donated hundreds to Paul's cause and have been in this movement to bring back the Republican party now for 5 years, i guess we failed this time, too much entrenched liberal interests and war hawks narrowly focused on war at any cost. I am patient and just as most of you are also working behind the scenes to bring about a renewal of Small Government ethos. I think we will be shocked after 4 more years of government growth, which will wrap up 12 years of Leviathan, now Obama may fail to persuade or make the changes he wants due to the reality of the economy, but one has to wonder what he thinks when he damn well knows we ar already over taxed and overspent. No way in hell will he accomplish a radical agenda, but if he tries to do more of the same he will fail, the only change possible would mean less government not more. Socialism got us here, sneaking in with the neo-cons and Socialsim cant save us either, it will just drag us all through the mud, for no damn good reason other than ideology and ignorance.





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