Prop 8 Passed. We take a step back.

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posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 05:41 PM
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reply to post by musclefreak
 


well that was certainly a valuable addition to this debate. Thanks for your deep insight, "musclefreak."




posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 05:42 PM
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reply to post by kinglizard
 


No, what I would ask is that you look at the issue and ask yourself if it is fair and will it do you any harm. Clearly in this matter, it is not fair and to allow it harms no one. I am asking people to be true Americans when they are in the voting booth. If there was a ballot initiative to mandate prayer in school, your religion would dictate that you vote yes, but it wouldn't be very American, now would it? Sometimes we have to separate the two sides when we are in the voting booth. Equality is one of the founding principles of this country, so we must be good patriots despite our personal or religious beliefs.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 05:42 PM
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reply to post by musclefreak
 


When you allow your homophobia to form as a basis for intolerance and unjustified persecution, then yes it is.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 05:42 PM
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Originally posted by scientist

Originally posted by TheRooster
What I'm looking for is a clear definition, something set in stone, not to be breached because down the road something else becomes acceptable to a select few who wish to impose it on all.


Should slavery have been set in stone? What type of thinking would lead you to condemn all future generations to our limited thinking of today? That is so ass backwards, I can't begin to wrap my head around it.


Slavery? No of course not, but that happened before the Constitution was drafted, but of course you knew that.

But if I follow your logic, then why have one at all? Or we can have one and just call it the "Bill of Nows" We'll just trust and believe in what is popular now, and keep changing it when we feel like it. Oh that's right, that's what we're doing now... How's Dr Phil put it? How's that workin' for ya? Or we can try to stay true to a document (one for the record that did not include slavery) so that future generations see the value in it. Can you wrap your head around that?



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 05:43 PM
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Originally posted by Griff
This really hits home for me.


By no means do I have all the answers but the hospital visitation thing really rubs me the wrong way. Though I don't support marriage of the same sex not allowing visitation in hospitals seems cruel.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 05:47 PM
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reply to post by musclefreak
 


Close minded???

Gee, you think??

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but you can't force your opinion on others at the expense of THEIR rights.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 05:48 PM
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reply to post by kinglizard
 


Now you see why the gay community is fighting for this basic right. You don't have to accept or agree with homosexual behavior, but as an American you should support equality for all, even if you don't agree with a certain group. There are legal protections built into 'marriage', on a secular level, and all the gay community wants is to share in those protections.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 05:50 PM
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reply to post by kinglizard
 


Both read the Bible day and night, but thou read black where I read white. - William Blake.

And now you know my position on your position a little better







[edit on 5-11-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 05:54 PM
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Originally posted by TheRooster
Slavery? No of course not, but that happened before the Constitution was drafted, but of course you knew that.


Wait a second. You were talking about tradition, not the constitution. Stop jumping back and forth. The constitution, as has already been pointed out, does not mention marriage. In fact, just the opposite - it promises freedom of religion. Also, to be more accurate, the Constitution does not defend slavery, but it does most certainly assign blacks to count as only 3/5 of a person. How was that workin' for ya'?


Originally posted by TheRooster
But if I follow your logic, then why have one at all? Or we can have one and just call it the "Bill of Nows" We'll just trust and believe in what is popular now, and keep changing it when we feel like it. Oh that's right, that's what we're doing now... How's Dr Phil put it? How's that workin' for ya? Or we can try to stay true to a document (one for the record that did not include slavery) so that future generations see the value in it. Can you wrap your head around that?


I haven't presented my logic yet, I've only tried to understand yours and restate it back to you, using the same types of exaggerated examples.

And for the record, no - I can't wrap my head around any of your logic just yet. Please explain to me how all of your ridiculous straw-men arguments are supposed to clarify your logic. It seems you are just retreating to sarcasm and hyperbole, in lieu of a rational stance.

[edit on 5-11-2008 by scientist]



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 05:54 PM
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Originally posted by kinglizard
Bottom line for me is that I see marriage as a religious union as well as a civil one. Clearly the Bible tells us it is an abomination for a person to have a romantic relationship with the same sex so I don't want that relationship to be supported by the law of man. I will always vote with my heart, mind, values and morals leaning towards the laws of God where applicable. I'll leave the interpretation of mans law and the constitution to the supreme court, meanwhile I will interpret and support the law of the most high God and cast my vote with that in mind.


Meanwhile this "word of God" was written by man. Which makes it man's law. Please don't even try to tell me the original Bible has not been perversed.


You don't need to agree with me but now you know my position a little better.


Fair enough. We can agree to disagree. But, know this. You are part and parcel of the slippery slope of taking rights away from certain individuals. Hope that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 05:57 PM
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Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
No, what I would ask is that you look at the issue and ask yourself if it is fair and will it do you any harm.


Sometimes we vote for what we think is right.


Originally posted by JaxonRobertsIf there was a ballot initiative to mandate prayer in school, your religion would dictate that you vote yes, but it wouldn't be very American, now would it?


Now you are being insulting. Yes I would vote to allow prayer in schools and I'm not real concerned with your labels. I am a Christian American and will vote in a way that supports my beliefs.

You vote in a way that suite you and allow the majority to do the same.


Anyway there is no argument here, It's okay If you don't agree with how I vote.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 05:57 PM
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I think lesbians should only be allowed to wed if they are really hot, and men shouldnt be allowed to marry each other at all. This is my opinion.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 06:00 PM
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Prop 8 accomplished one important thing: it stopped judges from legislating from the bench.

It put the power to decide back in the hand of the people, which is where it belongs.

That is the essence, the true impact of Prop 8. Power to the people!



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 06:01 PM
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reply to post by jsobecky
 


So, it is ok to take rights away from people or to deny rights to people as long as the majority in society say it is ok???

So much about that just doesn't sit well with me.....


[edit on 11/5/2008 by skeptic1]



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 06:04 PM
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Originally posted by Griff
Meanwhile this "word of God" was written by man. Which makes it man's law. Please don't even try to tell me the original Bible has not been perversed.


That's okay...I'm concerned with my beliefs and my God not your assertions. I know you think that is really insulting to me but truly it rolls off my back like water off a duck.

I'm really disappointed with the level of exchanges here. I won't get riled though....



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 06:05 PM
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Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
Equality is one of the founding principles of this country, so we must be good patriots despite our personal or religious beliefs.


Maybe we should ban shell fish eaters from marriage too? As they are also "abominations" in the eyes of the Lord.

I wonder if kinglizard eats shell fish?



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 06:05 PM
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^ Then you dont agree with the fundamentals of democracy. My voice was initially silenced by these piece of crap judges. I had to go through the extra steps of restating my voice through a second vote and if you dont like what the MAJORITY have chosen to put into the constitution, get your own referendum that gets more votes than what we did. tough crap for you otherwise.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 06:05 PM
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reply to post by skeptic1
 


First you have to establish the "right", which has never been done. Next you have to show where it was taken away. How can you take something away that someone never had?

Had a "right" been abridged, it would be a constitutional question, which it isn't.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 06:05 PM
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Originally posted by skeptic1
reply to post by TheRooster
 


Out of curiosity...seriously.

Do you view marriage, in this day in age, as a strictly religious union or as a secular contract/union?

In my view, marriage has become less associated with religion and more associated with secularism. And, if that is the case, how can the state deny that "contract" based on sexual preference??

[edit on 11/5/2008 by skeptic1]


I think the way society views "marriage" today is a shame. For the record I may be an expert on marriage and divorce as I've been married and divorced twice. The first time I married was in a church in '85, the second was at town hall. The first divorce nearly killed me. Forgive me, the onset of depression due to the divorce nearly killed me, the divorce itself was just a bunch of legal papers. I think what is wrong with marriage in this country is our "disposable" mentality towards EVERYTHING. I peronally never want to get married again unless the woman I marry is willing to tough it out (or not bat for the other team mid marriage) oops did I just say that out loud?? For me it is a contract or union, one to be loved, honored, valued, respected, trusted, etc... And fought for when necessary.

Many can ridicule me, call me ignorant, belittle me... Truth of the matter... I think everything that is wrong with this country is the result of just how far off the beaten path we've wondered from the course set by our founding fathers. That and it seems we have an entitlement mentality in this country. Nobody seems to want to work for it anymore.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 06:08 PM
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Originally posted by kinglizard

Originally posted by Griff
This really hits home for me.


By no means do I have all the answers but the hospital visitation thing really rubs me the wrong way. Though I don't support marriage of the same sex not allowing visitation in hospitals seems cruel.


Thanks for that.


Personally, I could care less if they call it marriage. Just give me the same rights. That's all I ask.





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