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[Edit] In response to those who think our next President is a Socialist

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posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 06:37 AM
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I thought it was time for me to start a new thread that will go completely ignored as most that I start tend to.

So, with the election over and the results being tallied, we see that Barack Obama is in line to be the next president of the United States of America. I can honestly say that, as an American currently living in England, I went to bed last night fearing that McCain would be the next president...I was pleasantly surprised to see, this morning, that not only did Obama win the election, but that, frankly, this election is the closest thing to a landslide, in favor of the Democrats, that we have seen in quite a long time...AND the Democrats have gained vast majorities in both the House and Senate.

Now, of course, what I actually want to address is not Obama's election, per se, but it is to the plethora of people out there crying foul over his policies. There are now a huge, and growing, multitude of threads out there with individuals moaning about Obama's election as an end to America....that America will somehow become a socialist, nay, COMMUNIST nation under Obama and the Democrats.

What planet do these people live on?

First of all, NOTHING will turn America into a socialist, nor Communist, nation. Nothing except for the American public wanting to turn into a socialist nation, the American public allowing to turn into a socialist nation, the American public voting to turn America into a socialist nation...but guess what? If Bush has proven anything in the last 8 years, it is that American's have come to value consumerism more than Democracy.

Secondly, what was that we heard about back in 2004 about Bush's re-election being an affirmation, a legitimization, proof, that American citizens supported his policies. The majority of Americans voted for Obama, therefore, that must mean that the majority of Americans support Obama's policies, regardless of whether they are left, right, centre or socialist in their leanings, right?

Thirdly, in response to all those people who rave on about how Obama should be illegitimate because "he's a socialist" and "America doesn't do socialism." Here is a clue. America is politically considered to be a democracy. Socialism is, largely, an economic ideology...Yes, in the past as well as in the present; nations that have been socialist have fallen under totalitarian or authoritarian control, just as capitalist nations have, just as nations with mixed-economic systems have. Correlation is not causation. If it were, capitalism would lead to fascism...as perhaps some of us on the left fear it has, to a point.

All things equal, every other successful democracy in the civilized world has socialist-leaning policies built into its economic system....if a bit of socialist influence here and there was so bad, why does everyone else do it...is America out of sync with the rest of the Democratic world? It would certainly seem that way, lately.

At the end of the day, Obama is the next president...the Democrats are in control of the House and Senate by a large majority...America has been pushed so far to the right by the Republicans with their control, to a point of collapse....it is time for the pendulum to swing back the other way...or at least we can only hope....the reality is, we are going to have to wait and see what happens.

I certainly don't think the next 4 years will be worse than the past 8.


[edit on 5/11/08 by madhatr137]




posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 06:46 AM
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According to his platform and a few of his comments how can that not be construed as socialism?,share the wealth,government take control of mortgages,sure sounds like it to me,talk to me in about a year kid



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 07:04 AM
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Originally posted by madhatr137
. . .

Secondly, what was that we heard about back in 2004 about Bush's re-election being an affirmation, a legitimization, proof, that American citizens supported his policies. The majority of Americans voted for Obama, therefore, that must mean that the majority of Americans support Obama's policies, regardless of whether they are left, right, centre or socialist in their leanings, right?


Wrong. What propelled Obama to the win is two things:

1.) Race - Something to the effect of 90% of black people voted for him. I am willing to bet my soul that a majority voted for him ONLY BECAUSE HE IS BLACK . . . not for his policies

2.) Entitlements - He won the 18-24 crowd who we all know is generally of the mindset that everything has to be handed to them without any work done for it. Obama promised them free money, and they took the bait


Thirdly, in response to all those people who rave on about how Obama should be illegitimate because "he's a socialist" and "America doesn't do socialism." Here is a clue. America is politically considered to be a democracy. Socialism is, largely, an economic ideology...Yes, in the past as well as in the present; nations that have been socialist have fallen under totalitarian or authoritarian control, just as capitalist nations have, just as nations with mixed-economic systems have. Correlation is not causation. If it were, capitalism would lead to fascism...as perhaps some of us on the left fear it has, to a point.

All things equal, every other successful democracy in the civilized world has socialist-leaning policies built into its economic system....if a bit of socialist influence here and there was so bad, why does everyone else do it...is America out of sync with the rest of the Democratic world? It would certainly seem that way, lately.

. . .


What capitalist countries fell to totalitarian or authoritarian control?

And since when does America have to be like the rest of the world? There are two reasons why the USA was considered the greatest country . . . democracy and capitalism. It was when capitalism turned into fascism that the USA began to lose greatness. The next step over from fascism is socialism.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 07:33 AM
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reply to post by xxpigxx
 


Try Hitlers Germany. Try south Africa. Try Mussolini's Italy, and Franco's Spain. Capitalist States that trned into Fascist States, with a corporate elite (for example) making tons of dosh by selling Zyklon B to the governement. Any questions ?



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 07:59 AM
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reply to post by madhatr137
 


First off, the republicans have not been in control of anything since 2005, the democrats have controlled congress and controlled the president, GWB has been slammed since taking office, the hate and fear mongering over his presidency has been like no other in history.

Barry has been rated the most liberal in the IL senate as well as in all of congress. You think he is a centrist? That was an act to get the ignorant vote and he tricked all of you into believing he is not an extremist, just wait until he has free reign and allows congress to pass every bill under the sun.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 08:06 AM
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reply to post by xxpigxx
 


Actually, the racist blacks in this country voted 99% for barry. They voted for him only and because of his skin color, which makes them racists in their own book. Someone needs to say it in the MSM but you know no one ever will, because then they would be racist.

Let the reperations begin!!!

[edit on 5-11-2008 by stinkhorn]



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 08:09 AM
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A star for you but hang it up you will be shouted down and i see its already started... but i agree fully with you.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 08:21 AM
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reply to post by grover
 


I am merely stating the obvious, which will get me slammed as well, because I dont see this half-black man as being the mesiah for all humans on earth.

I live in IL, he is currently my senator, I know exactly who he is and what he stands for, I have know it all along. The media's desire to have the first black president has blinded them and the entire nation to the true person he really is. This guy scares me because no one will critisize him in the slightest because of his skin color.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 08:35 AM
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reply to post by Ismail
 


none . . . you answered one of my questions. Thank you


Now if someone could answer my other one . . .



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 09:26 AM
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Actually, we are not a democracy, we are a republic of states united.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 09:50 AM
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Originally posted by stinkhorn
reply to post by madhatr137
 


First off, the republicans have not been in control of anything since 2005, the democrats have controlled congress and controlled the president, GWB has been slammed since taking office, the hate and fear mongering over his presidency has been like no other in history.


Actually, if memory serves me right, as it does, as does history, the Republicans have held the majority in both the House and Senate since the 104th Congress, which began January of 1995, until the end of the 109th Congress, which was December 22nd 2006, sans a very brief Democratic majority of Senate in the 107th Congress, which went right back to a Republican Majority...that means that for 3/4 of Clinton's presidency, the entire time of which they were trying to impeach him for a plethora of things, and 3/4 of the Bush presidency, of which they acted as a virtual rubber stamp, Republicans controlled the majority of both Houses of Congress....if that isn't control over Congress, what is?



As for those who say that he got the black vote simply because he's black.....where did you get those telepathic skills? Reading people's minds, what a great ability that must be.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:06 PM
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reply to post by madhatr137
 


Google Howard Stern's interview of Harlem residents. Then you will understand.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 04:14 PM
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Wow, I mean, Wow... Ususally people use sources to bolster the intellectual integrity of their opinions or points of view...and, I mean, I do think he is entertaining, though coarse...but Howard Stern? If the level of discourse and evidenciary standard needed to "understand" and be deemed legitimate has dropped to the level of Howard Stern...then, frankly, we all have a whole lot more to be afraid of for thr future of America, nay, the world, than I ever dreamed possible.

And to that point, thank goodness our next president is going to be not only an elloquent speaker, but a diplomat and an academic.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 07:55 PM
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reply to post by madhatr137
 


Did you listen to what was said, or did you knee jerk dismiss it?

Yes, he is crass, a pervert. But he went against the PC system in this instance, and proved the point quite nicely.

Here is a link that you will like

www.republicansforobama.com

Or are you too scared of the truth?

Are you going to
DENY IGNORANCE!?

Or are you going to revel in it?

[edit on 5/11/2008 by xxpigxx]



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 02:50 AM
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reply to post by xxpigxx
 


Listened to it...listened to it multiple times from multiple sources looking for the maximum number of sound bytes...and my conclusion is that it is typical Howard Stern...Sal spends a day down in Harlem interviewing black Americans, intentionally attempting to mislead them. What you hear on the show are a handful of interviews that illustrate perfectly the point that Stern is trying to prove; black voters who are voting on the basis of race alone.

What you don't hear are any of the interviews in which the intended victim of this embarrassment turns around and says, "hey, wait a minute, you're talking about McCain there," toe voters that actually know what they are talking about, or what about that one black person who voted for McCain, that sure would have been interesting, what were their reasons. No, you only hear exactly what Stern wants you to hear, only that which proves his point, to make you think what Stern wants you to think.

Stern's little political experiment is corrupted from the start by its own bias which becomes blatant in the result samples.

I retain my previous comments. If the level of discourse and evidentiary standard needed to "understand" and be deemed legitimate has dropped to the level of Howard Stern...then, frankly, we all have a whole lot more to be afraid of for the future of America than I ever dreamed possible.

And that is not a knee-jerk reaction; its called rational analysis.



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 06:25 AM
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The point still stands that most black people that voted for Obama voted for him because he was black.

The H. Stern audio shows that this mindset was out there, and the fact that 90% of Black people voted for him . . . come on.

You honestly think that they voted for him on his policies alone? ANd if so . .. then why is the media (and even people here) going on and on about his race . . . and not his policies?



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 07:59 AM
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reply to post by xxpigxx
 


Regardless, you're making the mistake of assuming that a correlation is a causation. We're into quantitative analysis here. Of course the mindset is out there that, some, black people will have voted for Obama based on strictly racial lines. The same can be said for white people who have voted against Obama based on racial lines. How do I know this? I have family members who have vowed to vote against him for no other reason than the fact that he is black and they do not want a black man for president. Does that mean that all, or the majority of, white people who did not vote for Obama did not do so based on race? Of course not, white people pay attention to the issues...right? How can we make such crass judgements based on the color of a person't skin?

The thing is that if we assume that Howard Stern is right, that this racial projection that the media is helping to perpetuate is true, then we have to assume that it operates across the board; white, black, asian, middle eastern, etc. If we do that, rather than respect every individual's motivations as their own and only their own, it does nothing but destroy any sensible political discourse that could exist.

In the end, to do so does nothing but buy into a stereotype that blinds us all.

Therefore, by buying into such unverifyable nonsense, such as that



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