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Iraqis not good enough for ACTUAL democracy?

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posted on Mar, 30 2004 @ 03:18 PM
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Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Leveller, go back and study the history of Mesopotamia. You will lose some of that ignorant arrogance if you have a clear understanding of what the people of that region have gone through.



No dude. Go back even further. You'll find that, but for a brief period, the region has always been "fooked".




posted on Mar, 30 2004 @ 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Leveller, go back and study the history of Mesopotamia. You will lose some of that ignorant arrogance if you have a clear understanding of what the people of that region have gone through.



No dude. Go back even further. You'll find that, but for a brief period, the region has always been "fooked".




Dude - I stand by what I said. You seem to be quite unaware of the accomplishments of the people of that region long, long ago. Math, science, progress.. Until these things were destroyed.

Fast forward, I re-iterate, it was the Sykes-Picot agreement that led us to the intolerable situation we now find ourselves in. The idiotic division. It's just more proof of how the west foolishly thinks so highly of itself. Just like a child who thinks he knows everything.



posted on Mar, 31 2004 @ 10:22 AM
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Originally posted by TrueLies
You think they want the kind of democracy we have?


Do you actually think we have TRUE democracy??


No #! If they actually manage to have a democracy, they'll have accomplished something we can't.



posted on Mar, 31 2004 @ 01:51 PM
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There's been people and governments in Mesopotamia for frickin 5000+ years, don't pretend to know what you can do to "fix" the situation.


The situation is more volatile in the Middle East due to WESTERN meddling. The Brits set up Iraq's territory and carved out the Middle East to Western powers, which started a whole bunch more problems than it solved.

To think that YOU know what is best for these people is laughable. I'd say you leave these decisions to the people that LIVE there, the people that have LIVED there for generations, and you forget about your totally baseless arrogance when it comes to who "deserves" democracy and who doesn't, and who can "handle it" and who can't.

What was the last turnout in the Presidential Elections? 28%? Yeah go tell the world what a fantastic job the USA has done on promoting democracy within it's own country. You have more people who are disenfranchised with politics in the US than anywhere else in the world, so don't go preaching that you know best. The US knows how to destroy, not how to create.

Ask Cambodia, ask Chile, ask Panama, ask Nicaragua, ask Brazil, ask Cuba, ask Haiti, etc.


The best comparison I can make is:

The United States bringing "Democracy" to other countries is like having Ted Bundy teach an Anger Management course.


jako



posted on Mar, 31 2004 @ 03:34 PM
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You are correct. We don't know what to do to fix the situation. How can we? Only a people that have been killing each other for 5000+ years over the same dust can relate to or understand their problems.



posted on Mar, 31 2004 @ 06:12 PM
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Iraqis not good enough for ACTUAL democracy?
So the U.S. Occupation forces now have closed another newspaper for disobeying and printing what they want to print.

Is Freedom of the Press not a pretty important aspect of Democracy? Doesn't it herald actual Freedom Of Speech?


Whether you like it or not we are there - it's a done deal The idea is to accomplish those goals as quickly as possible and get out of there. If stopping the publishing of a paper that’s inciting people to work against us gets us out of there faster then it’s a good thing. I know you did not want us there in the first place, but do you expect us to just lay down & say ah forget our goals lets just go home.

Iraq is not a democracy it’s a war zone. When we are gone they can go back to doing whatever they like or whatever who’s in power lets them do.

What's happening in Iraq would be similar if instead of YOU being banned, the entire site was shut down for all of us because of what you say.

See?


Good point, but apples and oranges. . If someone is publishing information that the publisher does not like the publisher will ban them.

If this site was publishing information that was deemed to be responsible for inciting people to perform acts that were resulting in deaths of people the government would shut down this site.

Freedom of the press is not a wide-open idea that’s lets you say whatever you want. Just like this site has guidelines the government in which this site is located has guidelines. Some of those lines are marked & some not and some are constantly being tested.

As far as freedom to say what you like in this forum, you are free to say what you like within the guidelines. This forum is not a democracy, it is a dictatorship and when we cross the line they have the freedom to edit, delete or ban us.

Most countries in Europe have more "freedom" than you do.

Really? I live in the US and I lived in Europe and I don’t agree. Europe has many stricter laws than the U.S. Driving through the border the Swiss Guard took the $250 radar detector and asked if it was on. If so he informed me that would be $250 more for operating it. When the police came to my door in Europe while I was having a party one night they informed me that that they would be taking my 2k stereo system. In the U.S. I would have got a $300 fine.

There are more people in JAIL in the U.S. than all of Europe put together. Is that freedom? Is it just that the US has far stricter laws (less freedom) or is it that Americans are just more criminal? .

While I have to agree we have a problem there and most of it has to do with drugs. Still though I’d have to say that in America there is more of a criminal mentality then in Europe. In Europe I think if you lose your wallet your much more likely to get it back with the money intact then in America. I really don’t know why this is.

[Edited on 31-3-2004 by outsider]



posted on Mar, 31 2004 @ 07:40 PM
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Um, Jakomo, no. Europeans have LESS rights.

Prison population? Its because we have more criminals, thats why we have more people in prison than europe. Americans descended from Europes criminals, exiles, and unwanted, a mentality that has pervaded our culture. Thus, we have more a criminal mindset than Europe. Europe values social order and cooperation, Americans, have the rebel mentality. Youre under the impression that Europeans and Americans and others are somehow.....the same. We are NOT. Our values, veliefs, and attitudes are FAR different from yours. Thus, you still view us from your own bias.

We piut people in jail cuz they are assholes. We have more criminals and violence than in Europe, thus, we have more need for prisons.

But lets get abck to rights. NO. Can say a small group of people put petitions on ballots for the rest of people to vote on in Europe? Not that Ive seen. Lets look at the Iraq war. Despite the fact that the majority of thier populations opposition, many leaders still did the war. In America, the only reason they got away with the war is because the majority of the population, hell, damn near all of it, supported the stupid thing. If the people of america werent in full support of the war, we would not have went, period. because despite cooperate bribes and such, going to war without public approval is a recipie for political suicide, as well as chaos at home. See Vietnam war for example.

I can walk just about anywhere here in America without cameras watching my every move. I can speak whatever I wish to speak. I can adorn religious objects without being told to take them off. I myself, can thinm up a state measure, then walk around, get people to sign the petition, then have that measure put on the ballot to be voted on. I can break alot of petty laws, and cops really dont care. I can do alot of things here without govornment interference. Most of what I do I have no worries of it being taxed.

No, Jakomo, Europe is alot less free. You have less people in prison probab;ly because 150 years ago, Europe exiled and kicked its criminal population out, and they came over to us. So, we have your criminals. They continue to do what they do best. Cooperations? You ever think that Americans really dont care if cooperations bribe the govornment? So long as they dont bother the individual citizen, we truly dont care.

Jakmo, youre smart, but you need to do more studying into the actual American people, the mindset. The culture, the soul of this country. Reading a bunch of left wing crap and relying on new stories is gonna rot your brain as surely as the republican christians sour thiers on such right wing Fozx news crap.

I have known many friends in Euroipe who agree with me, the US is alot more permissive than thier homelands. Germans, Brits, Danes, ect, even Dutch, have told me as such. There are alot of books, magazines, and movies that are banned in Europe, that they can get here. I have lived in both sides. I have seen.

Yeah, so we cant have nudity and swearing on national TV. It sucks, but thats why we have the freedom of choice: cable.



posted on Mar, 31 2004 @ 07:54 PM
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And Id have to agree with leveller. Jakomo, no, they DONT know how to fix the situation, because they have been fighting and screwing with one another for so long. Look at the multitudem of civilizations. First mesopatamia. Then it breaks up. Babylon. Persia, Rome, the the Turks, ect, so on and so forth. The place has been invaded, taken over, so many times its not funny. And with each new invasion, new ethnic groups, new religious, thus, more ingredients to a ticking time bomb. The people of that region will forever fight and engage in violence, until they chose to move beyond it. Another reason the US should nto be there.

In the former Yugoslavia, we had the same problems. Ethnic groups killing each other for thousands of years, until one thing changed it: unification under iron fisted dictators forced the people at gun point to behave themselves.

Thats what should have been done in Iraq, we should have left Saddam there. he was a brutal dictator, but thats what Iraq needed: someone with an Iron fist to sit on them. Durinf=g saddams reign, the various ethnic groups did not kill each other, he basically made sure to eliminate any problems. Most people thinks its cruel, but people forget: people are NOT the same wherever you go. Every nation has its own soul, and mentality. Thus, each nation needs its own formula. The middle east seems to respond best to strong arming and such. Saddam was strong arming his people to force them to become modernized, more secular, so they could compete with the west. the only way he could do it was to supress radical Islam, ethnic infighting, ect, and force them to modernize. he did a good job, as Iraqis are alot more socially evolved than the rest of the world.

But Iraq should NOT have democracy, under any circumstances. We should have left the damn country to its dictator. As I siad before, their people areNOT ready for democracy, a republic, hell, even communism. They still need to get past the tribalism and rleigious frenzies unleashed when we popped the cork on the bomb.



posted on Apr, 1 2004 @ 08:19 AM
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Skadi: First, on Europe.

I would disagree strongly with you that the US is more permissive than Europe. In the US, there's a strong puritanical streak that's a little baffling... People are all about "fake outrage" over little things. A bared boob, a multi-racial couple, a same-sex couple, a joint, etc.

It's almost like a type of cultural hypersensitivity, I can't explain it. You really have to toe the line more in the States than you do in Europe. In most countries in Europe, you're not slapped into jail for the tiniest offences, you're not going to get sued over some stupidity, and it just seems to be a more laid back lifestyle, not as, uh, "rat racy". More forgiving, less intrusive.

As for Iraq, I say let them figure things out for themselves, with help from their neighbors (who actually have to co-exist and trade with them) and get the US out of there. You can't jumpstart a democracy down the barrel of a rifle.

f they want to live in peace or if they want to live in inter-tribal warfare, let them. It's their country. I'm sure they'd choose peace.


jako



posted on Apr, 1 2004 @ 09:02 AM
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Well, Jakmo, there we can agree: leave them to thier fighting or whatever the hell they do to pass the time. Thier country, like you said. Thier biz. And no, you cant enforce democracy down the barrel of a gun. You can enforce order and cooperation, though, which is what Saddamw as doing, and Frankly, he wasnt bothering me, so what do I care what he does in his borders? Like anyone else. Unless they attack America directly or through intermediaries, I really am not concerned with thier internal affairs. Sigh, Ill mention Vietnam again. Anoter waste. which is where this war is going.

America is not as puritanical as you think, This wierd impression that people assume, based on media, is false. I cant begin to tell you how many times I have smoked pot in front of cops and Ive never done jail time or even gotten a ticket. I have streaked naked through the fountain an the convetion center, and no one arrested me.

Every little thing does NOT get you thrown in jail. This is something Ive learned during my youth associating with "unsavory types". When people get arrested for doing some "stupid little thing" its alot more to the story than that. I have had friends who screamed they were unfairly arrested, when i was with them at the time, and they were up to absolutely no good. (Long stories. But even in my druggie days, I knew my buddies who got arrested had it coming. I would have hauled off and beat the # out of them for thier actions had I not been so stoned and mellow).

Anyway, its a small percentage of the population that gets all riled about puritanical things. Look how many movies and music, media, that is published every year about sex, drugs, and the other. We have the worlds biggest porn industry for gods sake. All of it free speech protected. Theres legal bashes, sure. Thats what this country was built on: the battle. We shall always have these battles, and they are as important to our culture as Mc Donalds and the friggin Alamo. This country was built on chaos. Even as the religious right start lobbyiong for an Amish style society, millions more people are smoking dope, having "immoral sexual relations with whoever strikers thier fancy at the moment", or watching "filth" without anyone bothering them. What you have in America is something Ive not found anywhere else: a massive variety and diversity of lifestyles, opinions, and attitudes that vary with the weather. There is no uniformity here.

I dont know hwere you have visited, but Ive never seen anyone get all freaked out over interracial couples, except in podunk redneck townms where everyone is related to each other. My whole life Ive seen interracial couples everywhere, and have never seen anyone give them so much as a first glance, let alone a second.

Our media is to blame for your observations, as well as many indy medias. they blow everything out of proportion. Most people simply dont care. Exposed breast on national TV? A copuple soccer moms bitched and moaned, but the majority of people? Who cares. they were more pissed because they felt it was a cry for attention, Jutin and Janet both on the decline of thier careers. Clinton and his blowjob? the only reason we got pissy about that is cuz we hated Clinton. JFK was banging everything that had a pulse, and no one said a word cuz we liked him. Clinton was slime, thus, he wasnt even allowed a blowjob without our scorn.

The fact that there is so much variety in this country is another reason i consider it free. If you go to Europe, and posses a different opinion and outlook from the norm, people ride your ass, I have learned from experience. Over here? Everyone does thier own thing. Some places they are rednecks, some palces hippies, others: freaks, gays, punks yuppies, white trash, gangstas, gun nuts, religious freaks, nerds,, so on and so forth.

The only times Ive ever seen anyone arrested for something "stupid" is when they managed to sleaze thier way out of of serious charges, so, the cops went and busted em for something petty, just to get the miserable turds off the street.



posted on Apr, 1 2004 @ 11:36 AM
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Skadi: Point taken on the USA. I've always seen things through my own viewpoint as a Canadian and having travelled to so many different places.

It always seemed to me that Americans were more uptight, but I only lived there for 2 years (in Irvine and Wildwood). Far more nosy and prone to criticize you for what you do (to your face or not).

I'm sure media has skued that a bit, though. I do know plenty of superb Americans, and they far outweigh the lame ones. No pun intended


And we definitely agree on Iraq. Get the US out of there and slap in some multinational UN soldiers. The American troops have bullseyes on their foreheads.


Let the Iraqis deal with some South African Regulars and see how they wish for Americans back



jako



posted on Apr, 2 2004 @ 09:32 AM
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Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by Jakomo
In your blind arrogance you fail to realize IT'S THEIR FOOKIN COUNTRY. The coalition has no RIGHT to think they can fix things.


It might be their FOOKIN ("Fookin?" Hope EKC doesn't see that) country, but if they can't run it, then they need a hand. You seem to think that the Iraqis are capable of taking their own destiny in their hands and creating some sort of Utopia. Have you ever once stopped to think what the consequences to them might be if the coalition pulled out?

Yeah, great. Let them die.
Sorry some of us have the arrogance to try to put things right.



yeah, IF they can't RUN THEIR OWN country.........
Have they even had the opportunity to since Sadam left????
If you go back in history, these people have been able to run their own country. And they've been productive, wealthy, and able bodied to do so....

American government hasn't even given them a chance.
They are shoving "so called" democracy down their throat.
They have been a republic not a democracy in the past.
Democracy. Please look up the true meaning... If you look, you will find that even we do not have true democracy... We have democracy only if we live within the guidelines of the local, state, and federal "laws"
Abiding citizens will have freedom, true... But where is our say in any proposed bills that get sent throught he legislature?? Where?? All we can do is hold up signs??
Is that impressionable?? We can vote them out sure, but they know damn well that people are too friggin lazy to get off their ass and boot em out of the money bowl.
Democracy? Ha! Talk about imperialism, talk about authorative, talk about totaltarianism, talk about democracy! oh boy.. Yes please, gimme some more of that.. Sounds appetizing..
You?? Care for more?? Want another scoop of that patriot act??
What about Patriot act 2?? Would you like another serving???

The way we live is the way the Iraqi's will live...
In the government own drawn up way of "democracy"

So go ahead, give it another shot...
You can't be telling people about democracy if you don't even know what it is...

TrueLies says: "paaalllleeeaaase.



[Edited on 2-4-2004 by TrueLies]



posted on Apr, 2 2004 @ 01:27 PM
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The thread title says it all really:

Iraqis not good enough for ACTUAL democracy?

Not ready for the 'actual democracy' that the US currently has? The US and 'real' democracy? Don't make me laugh.



posted on Apr, 2 2004 @ 01:58 PM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Contrary to your false misconceptions, Jakomo, the right wing in this country, from hillbillies to your "aryan whack jobs" do not get protected by the first amendment. I have seen many such pepers and people and orgs get shut down too.


That's why God hates fags can protest daily.
www.godhatesfags.com...



posted on Apr, 2 2004 @ 03:13 PM
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COOL HAND
I am curious as to why the article failed to mentioned that they had been warned several times in the past to cease writing inflamatory articles?
Because the article was written by Robert Fisk -- whatever happens, it's an excuse to bash America.


Personally I do not see the problem here. They were warned, failed to take heed of this warning knowing full well there would be consequences, and then got upset when they were punished?

This isn't a freedom of speech issue, it is a crime and punishment one.
The US is an occuping force. It should start acting like one. The war against the baathists is still on going. Newspapers don't have the right to print inflamitory articles in a war zone until the war is over. Then, when the US leaves in June 2004, the Iraqis may have freedom of the press.
.



posted on Apr, 2 2004 @ 04:48 PM
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Ahh, now theres a thought. The UN. Un troops from countries alot more strict.

There is the problem. The US has done nothiong to clamp down on bad behavior. Its like vietnam. Do nothing! So, bad guys in Iraq run amok, with little fear of punishment, because US leaders there are not using thier troops to instill order and security. We did the same thing in nam. Prohibited bombing runs during certain times of day. If the VC hit you., you did nothing, until some civilian egghead told you it was feasable. hence. why troops went nuts and did bad things to vietnamese citizens.

We see the same thing in Iraq. Troops being leashed, not being able to instil order. Stuck on bases instead of patrolling, helping train Iraqi police forces, and then going after Baathists and idiots trying to blow # up. So, we have chaos. Until the US military can pull its head out of its ass and learn what it means to occupy a country, like we did after world war 2, we should simply go home and work on patrolling our own borders. Lets some seriously twisted UN honchos go in and......crack skulls and put a boot on bad people and prevent mischief. Eventually, Iraqis will realize, that if they dont stop fighting each other and cooperate and forget about thier old differences, they will have either dictators putting the samck down, or foreign troops in thier countries choking them. It might force cultural evolution where they will do like Europe did in the rennisance: realize the old way of doing things has gotta go, and modern civilization can be a great thing.

But not while the US is still there. Our troops need to be back home defending our borders from illegal immigrants. Because through our lose and unprotected borders, REAL terrorists or criminals, drug cartels, ect, can slip through.

If you lived in Irvine, no wonder you think Americans are...stuffy. Jesus, Id rather live in Bagdad than Irvine. Thats tight ass yuppie and soccermom land, like Bellvue up here by Seattle. Irvine is like Disneyland.



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