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posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:40 AM
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Here we go again, the Socialist = Communism arguement.

WHEN are some of you Americans going to realise that Socialist Policies do NOT equal Communism? How many more times do we Europeans have to bang your brainwashed thick heads on the table for you to realise that?

From what I have seen on MSM, MOST of the US voters want some socialist policies in the US. You have had 200+ years of the so-called American Dream and it has failed ......... time for a change.

Maybe at long last, Obama will actually bring America into the club of civilised nations, where it actually cares for its populace.




posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:43 AM
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All hail the grand leader Obama.


Today is a great day comrades....rejoice!!!








Edit: Before the libs get their panties in a bunch...I kid...I just felt the image was a perfect fit for the thread title.

[edit on 11/5/08 by BlackOps719]



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:46 AM
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reply to post by Wotan
 


Ah Europe, with its high rate of unemployment, general low productivity, high disenfranchisement, who could not be envious of, ye?



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:50 AM
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Good bye late great USA. Hello,tax revolts,riots,martial law.

We're so freaking doomed-Guru Mogumbo



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:50 AM
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reply to post by BlackOps719
 




No problems.. We had the same sort of humor when Kevin Rudd here in Australia was elected last year.

He can speak Mandarin, so he had a "Mao" theme going for this one...



I'm on the left, but it's to good to toss up some fun at it all.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:51 AM
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Actually no, i dont want a farrari. In fact ive never felt the need for more than just a comfortable and dependable car that can get me to work. A moderately good stereo system is nice too, but really i have never desired a car that cost more than 30k and have never wanted one that was ineffecient such as a suv either. People ARE the same all over, and maslow's hierarchy of needs is a basic developmental fundamental of ALL people, the only problem is that somewhere in modern society we have found a way to permanently sidetrack people somewhere between their search for love and acceptance and the bit about self actualization. I think its because rather than allowing people to follow their own development to discover what makes them happy, we MARKET to people that which we claim they need to be happy. Studies were done decades ago on how to market consumerism to the american people as a whole, and as the results were put into effect americans lost all their values as the highest virtues to aspire to became greed and consumption, and the accrual of wisdom, love and creativity went the way of the horse and carriage.

Which also applies to the question of my other poster....yes, you can move to areas of greater wealth, but you are leaving behind your family, friends, community and all other things that make life worth living. This is the part of american life that has destroyed community and the family unit. When i was a child i had two family's and each would get together on every sunday, whole families of 30-40 people, and share love and troubles and all the things that make life grand. Fast forward 30 years and now i know of NO friends who have this as people from most families move all over the country in persuit of careers and money.

The native americans have a belief that each person is actually a part of an organism made up of the person, their family, and their community, and that without all three it is very very difficult to be whole, and i believe in this as well. I see too many people in the psyche ward who i know would never have been there if they had strong family, a good support base. THIS i believe is the problem with our society of consumerist capitalistic greed....it takes out the human factor and makes us strive for things that IT tells us to strive for so most people go their whole lives without every figuring out who they truly are, or why they have this aching emptiness inside that nothing can fill so they use alcohol and drugs to dull the pain. It is the emptiness of a life without spirit, without meditation, without exploration of the self, where every moment is buried in the blizzard of overstimulation, of need, of greed, in a system that doesnt give people the time to live, to spend with their family, to explore themselves, as they constantly have to be out working overtime to buy that new farrari, that bigger house, that shiny bracelet.

All the things people complain about, pollution of the earth, poisons in our food, a welfare population that doesnt want to work, a wealthy elite that can abuse the system, all are CREATED by the very system we claim to love, in an american lifestyle that is unsupportable, whose very high cost in pollution, in destruction, and even in murder is dragging the rest of the world down, destroying hope, destroying spirit, and yes even destroying our families, while we sit there saying what a good thing it is, and how far we've come.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:54 AM
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Originally posted by Gateway
reply to post by Wotan
 


Ah Europe, with its high rate of unemployment, general low productivity, high disenfranchisement, who could not be envious of, ye?


Where the hell do you come from? You have no idea do you?

So tell me, do you love to work for a boss that makes # loads off of your hard work, for little pay, long hours, annual leave time that Europe left behind in the Dark Ages? The US system is like something from a Charles Dickens book.

I would not work in America for all the Tea in China and in my profession I could actually earn double what I am earning now.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:55 AM
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actually in a recent study of 30 nations, america's unemployment ranked 3 worst surpassed only by mexico and afghanistan.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 02:00 AM
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welcome to reality! Right now we are in bed with Saudi Arabia PERIOD! If you think for a minute that these people are our friends you better think twice. If you are religious you might think god is a real estate broker... The times for this are gone! Keep with history and do the crusades for the holy land but the truth of the matter is it is killing us. Devout religious people are going to fight like there is no tomorrow over a land steak until they are all dead.

Let's put our focus on ourselves (America) and better ourselves so we can really help people (and not at the end of a gun). You would be amazed what we can do when we don't middle in others affairs. Affairs That have been happening since the beginning of recorded history. There are alternatives and we can do it.... if we quit taking our talking points from main stream media. Not to mention our energy crisis. I don't appreciate T boone pickens swift boat sponsorship but it does not change the fact he IS right about energy.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 02:07 AM
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Originally posted by Wotan

Where the hell do you come from? You have no idea do you?

So tell me, do you love to work for a boss that makes # loads off of your hard work, for little pay, long hours, annual leave time that Europe left behind in the Dark Ages? The US system is like something from a Charles Dickens book.


Maybe when Dickens did his tour of America his audience were taking notes or something.

'I'm glad he let that Tiny Tim character die. He was a lazy waster and his father was a loser who should have got a third job'.

[edit on 5-11-2008 by Merriman Weir]



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 02:08 AM
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reply to post by Wotan

Where the hell do you come from? You have no idea do you?
 


More than you know, I've lived and traveled extensively throughout Europe. Thanks but no thanks...when I was naive and foolish, I too had the desire to become an expatriate...ah to live the what I thought the good life was in France and sip champagne and slow things down. That is until I realized the high rate of unemployment and how having a university degree can only get you a job as the local bus boy or a temp job through YOUR Temporary employment recruiters. Thanks, but no thanks.




So tell me, do you love to work for a boss that makes # loads off of your hard work, for little pay, long hours, annual leave time that Europe left behind in the Dark Ages? The US system is like something from a Charles Dickens book.

Yes that's why we have hundreds of thousands if not millions of people clamoring to become U.S. citizens. All awaiting for the American dream to be slaves...





I would not work in America for all the Tea in China and in my profession I could actually earn double what I am earning now.

Good for you, I would never want to work in Europe, opportunities are few and far between. I do envy the amount of hours some of you work, although I will say it will eventually KILL your own industries since you have to compete against the more productive people over on this side of the pond not to mention growing competition from Asians.

So eventually you too will have to work as hard as the rest of us, you may actually like it though because you get more income. Less time, but more income.


[edit on 5-11-2008 by Gateway]



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 02:09 AM
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I so very hope that in the next few years, we can prove the title of this thread wrong, but I am very afraid that the only change to it will be Welcome to the United Corporatism-Socialism States of America.

As a Vet, I will always support my CINC, I just pray that he also earns my respect



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 02:11 AM
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posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 02:15 AM
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Originally posted by gizmohd
We vote our freedoms away just for a damn handout..

Welcome to the United Socialist States of America.


My God, some of the most insightful sentences I have read all year. If I believed in a God, I'd prey for you and your fellow Americans.

S & F.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 02:16 AM
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The problem here is that people are repeatedly confusing two very different elements of the socialist political structure. Social welfare for all its citizenry is the primary overarching societal goal for such a government.

The most important objective of the socialist agenda is of establishing global human well being. Because they hold this objective in such high regard, they will obviously go out of their way to pursue this to its maximum limitations. When they find they can't possibly regulate every single system intended to benefit the well being of the individual, they believe that economic intervention is the only other alternative. Apparently spreading welfare isn't enough, and so things such as the redistribution of wealth as a means of pursuing social welfare is introduced.

It's just that because socialists put this evidently unattainable goal of perfect human well being at the very top of their platform, they tend to lose sight of the bigger picture, which in fact is necessary to produce a wealthy, healthy society. Capitalists, on the other hand, tend to promote the freedom of the marketplace, an unrestricted entity, free of control by a central authority. Capitalists promote greater individual participation, and by extension greater responsibility, in the exchange and purchase of financial assets and interests. And so there's probably good reason for the anti-Capitalist sentiment, and that is because it fosters greed, corruption and embezzlement, when totally unregulated, due to the nature of an individual wanting to protect his own interests in the face of bankruptcy, as opposed to respecting some higher moral code of market consequence. Any failed system in a command economy is left to rot because there are no other alternatives. You don't have human ingenuity to correct for these failures. You just have one dumbfounded central authority wondering why it is the economy is falling apart so quickly and completely.

There are more problems with our system today than pure capitalist, or pure socialist leanings. One problem is that politicians have a vested interest in maintaining their established positions, especially in the context of safeguarding a position for the party (fear of losing their position to the running party), and they feel any downturn in the economy may be misrepresented as a direct result of their insufficiency to account to their constituents, and because many fear losing office, they provide legal support to these businesses from their seat in Washington in return for campaign contributions. This messes things up a bit. Under the table deals. This obviously can't happen in a completely regulated, command economy, where the government is solely responsible for the economic output of a business. Somehow this notion that "Big Brother" has your back makes us believe we are free from the corruption and exploitation of the public business and its interests. In a socialist state you gain accountability (as there are few if any private stakeholders) but at the massively irresponsible cost of severely diminished efficiency. You can't possibly produce at the maximum level of output that a country's resources should allow for when you artificially restrict the very resources available to employ. Such a system just can't be managed by so few decision makers. When there's no scarcity, there's very low productivity.

Sand Castle analogy (Just made this up so it's not fleshed out)

A socialist Command economy is like a giant in a sand box. It's going to displace a lot of sand, probably dumping a lot of it out of the box itself, and in time becomes incapable of building that sand castle that it should have been able to with all the available resources. Its fingers are too large so it can't really do anything in particular with any positive effect. In fact, when constructing the towers they are usually crushed by the weight of the fingers, and the abject lack of concern of his other limbs, which happen to be flailing off, lead to other problems.

Conversely, Capitalism is a large team of kids in that same sand box. When the sand castle is being managed on a significantly smaller scale (this ensures the maximum employment of all available resources), with specialized jobs and with individuals' private interests at stake, you'll create one fantastic sand castle. The tower builder would probably get upset if you impose yourself on his area of work. If it crumbles he's kicked out the sand box, as the manager demands absolute perfect efficiency in order to complete the sand castle in time for dinner. The realization of the consequences of one's actions are felt by everyone in the system, not just the person at fault. New regulations are created to establish efficiency, and the rest of the workers are now weary of their own future actions, so as to not repeat the same mistake. Those that fail also suffer the consequences. They are not assisted. They learn from their mistakes, join another team of sand builders, or spend their time pursuing another venture.

The main things to get out of this:
1) There is a fundamental difference between social intervention in the economy, and pursuing social welfare in areas such as health care and education. The latter doesn't have nearly as many negative affects on society as a whole. In fact, it has been proven to be effective in countries such as Canada, the UK, and Australia. However such systems might not be entirely congruent with the many conceited political and cultural aspects of America at the moment, and so might fail for some fairly extraneous reasons.
2) The notion that human well being should be placed above all else obscures the vision of this highly idealized system, especially when the Economics of a country is subject to a political agenda, and not a purely objective decision making process, not to mention the self regulated and automatic free market system.


[edit on 5-11-2008 by cognoscente]

[edit on 5-11-2008 by cognoscente]



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 02:18 AM
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Originally posted by pexx421
actually in a recent study of 30 nations, america's unemployment ranked 3 worst surpassed only by mexico and afghanistan.


Do you mean this chart: Unemployment

I'm sure these are accurate figures after all Cuba is number 14.


Also look at the date for each country for the figures, you can't compare apples to oranges.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 02:20 AM
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Originally posted by Good Wolf

Originally posted by gizmohd
We vote our freedoms away just for a damn handout..

Welcome to the United Socialist States of America.


My God, some of the most insightful sentences I have read all year. If I believed in a God, I'd prey for you and your fellow Americans.

S & F.

You must be kidding me...




posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 02:27 AM
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reply to post by pexx421
 


Except the people that are employed are incredibly wealthy compared to those that aren't. The hardest working citizens have access to the best medical system on the planet, (however horrible complaints about insurance seem to be-it really seems to be worth it) . ALL that data implies is that there is a sociopolitical or perhaps geographical aspect contributing to such a high unemployment rate. It's about education. Still, although the unemployment rate is high, it is nowhere near significant. The world today seems to be vastly employed. The majority of all people in the U.S. experience a fantastic quality of living. Severely higher than that of Europe, I might add. Actually, there is no area where Europe really surpasses America, except perhaps in its ability to condone itself internationally (adherence to Geneva war conventions). It's economy as whole, quite honestly, is in a # hole. You don't just count Britain, Germany and France as all of Europe. It's a significantly small portion of it actually. It's also recipient to the largest of the EU's economic subsidization, which by the way ensures high employment and immense profits, all of which are at the expense of the poorer members of the EU and of the global economy as a whole. The data is also obscured by the fact that America is the third most populous country on the planet. Obviously unemployment is proportion to population.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 02:31 AM
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Originally posted by cognoscente
reply to post by pexx421
 

The hardest working citizens have access to the best medical system on the planet, (however horrible complaints about insurance seem to be-it really seems to be worth it) .



You're perpetuating a myth here. It's the wealthiest rather than the "hardest working citizens" that have the access.

That's not necessarily the same demographic at all.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 02:35 AM
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reply to post by Merriman Weir
 


i make an average joe's salary and i have very good insurance through my job. not sure how that works in other countries.....but from what i hear you can get decent health insurance for as little as $100 a month...





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