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posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:00 AM
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Gateway, you are completely ignorant.

You are completely oblivious to Socialism and you've failed to state what is bad about it?

You want the struggle of working class to continue and the rich getting richer? You'd rather have the "ferrari" than to have a equal society?

Is Socialism coming or is it already here? If it's here and you are a patriot or love your country, then you love Socialism.




posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:07 AM
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Preparing to be flamed....



You are completely oblivious to Socialism and you've failed to state what is bad about it?


I work hard for the money I earn my family.. and i dont want part of my money going to someone content to sit on the couch eating bon-bons watching Maury all day instead of supporting themselves....



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:10 AM
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Originally posted by gizmohd

Preparing to be flamed....



You are completely oblivious to Socialism and you've failed to state what is bad about it?


I work hard for the money I earn my family.. and i dont want part of my money going to someone content to sit on the couch eating bon-bons watching Maury all day instead of supporting themselves....


So a Socialist nation completely negates hard work? You need to read on Socialism.

Do not pay attention to the Anti-Leftist lectures from Libertarians such as Gateway.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:10 AM
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reply to post by pexx421
 



Originally posted by pexx421
If wages had increased along with profits the way its supposed to, the minimum wage today would be 19.60


..and a loaf of bread would cost $8.00.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:10 AM
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reply to post by gizmohd
 


You are considered selfish by Socialist because you want to keep the fruits of your labor.

This is the paradox that socialist will not own up to; they call you selfish, meanwhile since they take the fruits of your labor at the threat of prison or worse at gun point, they don't SEE IT AS THEFT.

And that's what it is THEFT.


[edit on 5-11-2008 by Gateway]



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:12 AM
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I just don't get the rationalization behind the fear of outsourcing jobs. The prevalence of outsourcing manufacture and unskilled labor to other countries is itself a sign of productive efficiency in the U.S. It means the nation as a whole is becoming more wealthy, which is especially indicative of higher levels of education.

This is a positive direction. In centuries past businessmen would have used slave labor. Now, they are offering relatively high paying jobs to individuals over seas for labor, which of course in the U.S. corporations couldn't possibly match in terms of wage.

In the U.S., such unskilled labor just shouldn't be awarded to such a degree as to warrant a sustainable living income, because in proportion to the levels of production of our industrial sector as a whole, these particular positions are at such a low level of societal contribution. Automata could replace these jobs easily, and over the next few decades they will, once developing countries no longer require a source of income in the form of multinational corporations, or of an outsourced manufactory. At the moment employing international laborers is cheaper than investing in the physical capital of robotic assembly plants domestically.

Individuals should utilize our education and existing social institutions (familial and extended connections) to the fullest of their advantage. The implementation of a full fledged social welfare state in the face of increasing deficiencies in an individual's actual utilization of those education systems is not a good combination. It will only propagate a cyclical and further generational poverty.

[edit on 5-11-2008 by cognoscente]



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:13 AM
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Originally posted by Gateway
reply to post by gizmohd
 


You are considered selfish by Socialist because you want to keep the fruits of your labor.

This is the paradox that socialist will not own up to; they call you selfish, meanwhile since they take the fruits of your labor at the threat of prison or worse at gun point, they don't SEE IT AS THEFT.

And that's what it is THEFT.


[edit on 5-11-2008 by Gateway]


Strange how that works now isnt it?



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:14 AM
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Haha!

They come to you at gun point, trying to take your money? What is Gateway trying to even say here? His lack of knowledge in the subject of Socialism is clear.

I'm sure he's talking about a Totalitarian Dictatorship.

Socialism is for a classless society and the workers ownership of production, not a dictatorship.

I recommend you all read about Thomas Sankara's legacy in Burkina Faso.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:16 AM
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No, the true theft is that the wealthy own the means of production, so they own the fruits of our labor by default. Greedy people just don't get it. The common man's labors are almost solely exploited by their bosses. If you own your own land and can actually produce something for yourself, you're taking away land from other people so they can't produce.

[edit on 5-11-2008 by k-string]



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:17 AM
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Originally posted by QuetzalcoatlAlien
Haha!

They come to you at gun point, trying to take your money? What is Gateway trying to even say here? His lack of knowledge in the subject of Socialism is clear.

I'm sure he's talking about a Totalitarian Dictatorship.

Socialism is for a classless society and the workers ownership of production, not a dictatorship.

I recommend you all read about Thomas Sankara's legacy in Burkina Faso.


No.. they do it in an even more sinister method.. by raising taxes that if you dont pay, you are fined then taxed on the fine... they do it by taxing money earned on money saved that had already been taxed because it earned a little more... oh yea.. and if you die.. and have any assets well.. your heirs get taxed on the money that has already been taxed on when it was earned, because well you didnt earn it.. so we (the government) is going to penalize you because your relative died and left you money.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:18 AM
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reply to post by cognoscente
 

cognoscente,

If socialists had it their way, they would have raised hell if the horse and buggy manufacturers went out of business.


-To the Commies:- Why aren't you guys upset that these guys lost their industry? Shouldn't you guys be upset that cars replaced the carriages and displaced these manufacturers?

[edit on 5-11-2008 by Gateway]



[edit on 5-11-2008 by Gateway]



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:18 AM
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Originally posted by gizmohd

Originally posted by QuetzalcoatlAlien
Haha!

They come to you at gun point, trying to take your money? What is Gateway trying to even say here? His lack of knowledge in the subject of Socialism is clear.

I'm sure he's talking about a Totalitarian Dictatorship.

Socialism is for a classless society and the workers ownership of production, not a dictatorship.

I recommend you all read about Thomas Sankara's legacy in Burkina Faso.


No.. they do it in an even more sinister method.. by raising taxes that if you dont pay, you are fined then taxed on the fine... they do it by taxing money earned on money saved that had already been taxed because it earned a little more... oh yea.. and if you die.. and have any assets well.. your heirs get taxed on the money that has already been taxed on when it was earned, because well you didnt earn it.. so we (the government) is going to penalize you because your relative died and left you money.


Wherever you got this, the writer really didn't have a clear view on Socialism since that is not Socialism, at all.



[edit on 5-11-2008 by QuetzalcoatlAlien]



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:21 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:23 AM
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You know waht real left is? How CEO's make $250(On average) for every $1 there workers make. THAT my friends is theft. Theft is giving the millions they did to that Woman that head HP and drove it into the ground in a 50 foot deep crater that my friends is theft. You talk about entitlements and how people get something for nothing. In florida you're entitled to a maximum of $250 every two weeks for 6 months if you're on unemployment. Like anyone can live anywhere but in there car or on the street for that type of money. Pull your heads out of your asses the Republican party hasn't been the same since Nixon, which saddens me. And the puppets took over.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:23 AM
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Oh, so because I am a Socialist and will not stand by while a silly Libertarian spews out ignorance I am a fourth grader?

I'm on the ignore list because you can't stand to see a Socialist on this site, trying to keep my freedoms down aye? Freedom of speech?

Silly Libertarians



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:25 AM
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reply to post by Gateway
 


Look, the simple answer was that the socialists weren't around when the horse and buggy manufacturer went out of business. I'm not even sure socialism was an advanced concept at around the time of widespread carriage use. But I'll ignore that anachronism. In fact, in the U.S. socialists have never been in a position of power sufficient to reprimand the marketplace for changes in its industrial structure. If they were, they would have seen momentous negative economic repercussions. In Russia, these shortcomings were obviously and ridiculously apparent.

Wait, where did you get the idea I was a socialist? My first sentence supported outsourcing redundant portions of industry, those not necessitated by the American wage earning population. Meaning, I would oppose recalling redundant jobs, and taxing corporations that carry out their manufacturing operations over seas. The exact opposite of which Obama's cabinet is likely to immediately pursue come inauguration.

Honestly, our economy will spiral downward if Obama acts on the things that he has promised to do. Hopefully, he doesn't pursue his outlined economic policy as rigorously as he proposed. The largest American corporations would suffer undoubtedly by this. But I'm sure he's not that conceited he thinks he can take on the invisible hand of Capitalism all by himself and win.

[edit on 5-11-2008 by cognoscente]



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:26 AM
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If you read through this thread, you'll see a debate raging as to the definition of socialist, fascist, republican and democrat.

The problem is that the definitions no longer fit.

The US has had a conservative administration, republican controlled congress, and two Supreme Court justices appointed by said administration.

And guess what? We still have abortion.

That should tell you where their priorities lie.

The same people getting all skeered about a black man in office, were the same ones who reelected Bush. "Socialist" is just a polite euphemism for the n-word.

The right wing has been usurped by corporate cronyism parading as conservative Republicans. There is no group that has been duped more than the Christian right. I cannot understand why they are supporting four more years of the same when 8 years didn't get them what they wanted, nor what they were promised.

Even when the Republicans were pretty much given free reign (after stealing two elections), what did they accomplish? We have experienced the single greatest transfer of wealth to the elite, bankers, corporations and oil companies. People are not better off. None of the middle class got any richer -- and in fact, we've had whatever savings, retirement and investments wiped out over night.

The rich people didn't have the homes foreclosed. The wealthiest Americans aren't losing their jobs. It isn't the little guys having expensive dinners at seaside resort or paying bonuses after getting a bailout.

DO YOU KNOW WHO HAS YOUR WEALTH?????? Bush's friends and lobbyists. It isn't the poor people, it isn't the small business owner, it isn't your neighbor. Do you think that continuing this practice with a different flavor, ala McCain, is somehow going to make a difference?

How, exactly, was McCain going to fix the problem? What, exactly, would he have done differently? When did McCain act like he was against big, powerful corporations?

At least Obama had a plan -- and one he could articulate. McCain's single biggest reason to vote for him was so that Obama, "that one", wouldn't win. Brilliant stratergerizin', except this isn't the 1950's and most of us with some relevance left don't care about skin color, nor will we vote for your ticket because you picked some woman in the hopes of getting the Hillary voters. Pretty lame.

We are embroiled in a war we cannot afford and one which will never end. Never mind that we were lied to and deceived to get there, we cannot afford to continue regardless of what you think is at stake. And that was what McCain was promising, continuing this expensive and unpopular war because that is all McCain knows.

If McCain had not been a POW and had not married wealth, he likely would have never risen to the dizzying heights of his mountain climbing ambition. Beyond those things, what did this man have to offer? He graduated fifth from the bottom of his class of 899 students.

Are you really complaining about the fear of raising taxes to cover the cost of socialized medicine and welfare? My God people, do you have any idea what this war and the bankster bailout is going to cost us? Do you realize that NONE of us will have social security, retirement, or perhaps JOBS???? You'd better be pulling for government social services because that may be the only way you spend your old age not huddled on the streets.

Conservatives think that if McCain had gotten in there, their taxes would not increase. I didn't see my taxes go down under Bush, did you? Where was that giant tax cut we were supposed to get? If the government is going to steal my hard earned money, I'd rather they invest it in social programs and infrastructure, than some stupid pissing contest in a desert half way around the world.

The Republicans had their chance and they sure made a mess of things. I seriously doubt it can get much worse with Obama in office.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:27 AM
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reply to post by cognoscente
 


No, I was supporting what you said. Not accusing you of being a socialist, at all.

Rather I was showing them that if they had it their way, our society and all we have today because of it, would have not come to pass had their backward ideas taken hold.



[edit on 5-11-2008 by Gateway]



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:30 AM
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reply to post by Gateway
 


Oh, sorry about that.

I took your first two sentences as propositionally related. The second sentence started with "Why aren't you", so I assumed that was directed at me for some odd reason.


Originally posted by Gateway
Rather I was showing them that if they had it there way, our society and all we have today because of it, would have not come to pass had their backward ideas taken hold.


Quite right there. And that's the most fundamental principle. Technological change, as you rightly described, and market adaptation. The current government thinks that the financial system is capable of learning something regarding the recent crash, despite having not suffered at all from the consequences of their actions. A socialist government thinks it can protect its greatest corporate interests from failure, while at the same time improving it. All the EESA did was minimize losses that should have otherwise been accounted for. A financial failure would have been a healthy thing. Human error is the bug and free market capitalism is its self regulating immune system.

[edit on 5-11-2008 by cognoscente]



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:34 AM
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The Nation has added Trillions in debt due to a mismanaged economy, and incredibly poorly thought out invasion of Iraq.
We could have elected alfred E neuman, it would not have mattered. This Nation MUST raise tax revenues to pay off debts this Nation created in the last 6 years. There is no going around this, it is intellectually dishonest to believe anyone can lower taxes and still meet obligations of the Nation, it cannot happen.


As far as Socialism, doesnt it sink in that Police, Fire Department, Libraries, supervisory agencies such as USDA, and the thousands of other avenues Govt supports and aids the citizens is socialism in practice..??

If you are so bent on disavowing Socialism, then put out your own Housefire, and dont call 911 when your house is being broken into, or your relative is being assaulted. Do not use your public libraries or enjoy the day at your regional park. Do not complain about the response of Govt to Katrina, and do not feel safe at Night under the watchful eyes of the US Military....Otherwise you are a closet socialist and again being intellectually dishonest.

Politicians "get away with it" due to lack of critical thinking in the Nation. People believe what they are told, that the Good guys wear white hats and bombing a Nation halfway around the world will reduce terrorism. It is wishful thinking at its best, wholesale murder at its worst.
One counter terrorist with a silencer has done more to combat terrorism than all the bombs dropped in Iraq. The war on terrorism is surgical strikes, not the general mayhem we have witnessed the last 6 years....thank God people in other nations can seperate the actions of a government from its people. This Nation needs to have more people on the ground and interacting with them instead of sighting thru gun barrels.


Healthcare in other nations are lightyears ahead of the USA, i have lived and continue to live outside the USA and am recipient of these programs. Most hospital visits cost me about 12-15 USD, most pharma's cost me about 8-10USD per 3 month supply, sometimes even 6 month supply. its the same pills you get in the USA, from JJ or CG, or BayerPharma...European technology is replacing USA, hospitals in asia and africa are tired of dealing with the strings attached to US products.

President Elect Obama is a Great hope for this Nation not because of who he is or the policies he represents....it is the DEPARTURE from the current blind faith decisions being made in the White House. There is no rhyme or reason to current foriegn policy, we could have spun a wheel of fortune and had better results.
There is no regulatory supervision of the banking system, or wall street. It is greed gone wild and the treasury depatment decided on a policy that rewarded the same people with 700+ Billion dollars. There is no logic behind decisions made the last 8 years.

The Nation has moved on...the people have spoken and with a loud voice cried out enough is enough, we will overthrow this government and replace it with another. It is what a representative democratic Republic is supposed to do when actions of its leadership are completely devoid of compassion and thoughtful deliberation.



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