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posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 12:30 AM
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reply to post by pexx421
 


All the advances in our society was paid for because someone worked hard for it. You think Doctors, Pharmacists, Dentists, who all had to go through 8-10 years of school or people who work hard through manual labor building cars will be okay with a pat on the back and a thank you? Or a ration of government cheese?


Even the Renaissance was financed by so-called BAD rich men, who else do you think funded the artist. (Look up Medici)

People work hard out of selfishness, YES selfishness to give the best they can for their family.

You need a society that allocates goods and services efficiently and rewards hard work. This system cannot work under socialism/fascism, it is only doomed to fail.





[edit on 5-11-2008 by Gateway]




posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 12:30 AM
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I dont know swatmedic.....seems to me that if we can afford a war in iraq and afghanistan, we could have afforded national healthcare. But of course, its ok to spend that money killing others, not to help americans. As to leaving iraq and having to go back later....yeah they said all that stuff about vietnam too...im just wondering when it is vietnam is gonna need our intervention again, right? Considering that we had no, NO reason to go into iraq at this time, and that 9/11 was blowback for 40 years of american intervention in the middle east, i would say the more terror and horror we instill in iraq, the more we will have to reap in the future, so the sooner we get out the better. Though honestly, with our responsibility for the deaths of 1.2 million iraqi citizens, i would be massively surprised if they were able to forgive and forget even if we leave yesterday.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 12:32 AM
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reply to post by gizmohd
 


Okay, it's nice that your job provides medical, but the reality in the trenches is that most jobs DONT. And if you're working the kind of job that doesn't provide medical, I guarantee you can't afford private health insurance and still feed and house yourself.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 12:33 AM
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Please someone, explain to me the Socialist policies and ideas of Barack Obama.

Also, the definition of Socialism is so obscured on this site.

Socialism isn't working as a repairman and earning a basket of food and not going up in life while there are soldiers watching you, while your family is dirt poor in a shack.

Libertarians are so sore about the election.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 12:35 AM
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Originally posted by k-string
reply to post by gizmohd
 


Okay, it's nice that your job provides medical, but the reality in the trenches is that most jobs DONT. And if you're working the kind of job that doesn't provide medical, I guarantee you can't afford private health insurance and still feed and house yourself.


And no... my job DOES NOT provide medical... it is something that I get ON MY OWN.... Because I know what I need to do in order to provide/protect my children... I am their first defense.. Not the Government.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 12:36 AM
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Originally posted by pexx421
I dont know swatmedic.....seems to me that if we can afford a war in iraq and afghanistan, we could have afforded national healthcare. But of course, its ok to spend that money killing others, not to help americans.


So then where is it? Why was it not implemented during the Clinton Admin? Where is it? Why has every President promised it and not been able to deliver? Where is it?

I guess the NWO is withholding it from us!?

[edit on 5-11-2008 by SwatMedic]



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 12:36 AM
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gizmo, im sure youve seen those people driving the suv's but have you also completely missed those working minimum wage to care for themselves and their children, unable to take time to get an education and just getting more and more in debt each year?? What you dont realize is the REASON that most people must use credit for everything is that we live in a system that has been manipulated by those very rich you are defending, in order to keep their profits growing, while the wages they paid people stay the same. If wages had increased along with profits the way its supposed to, the minimum wage today would be 19.60 and the working class wouldnt be NEEDING the government to help them buy homes or cars or medicine. But the rich have a power to manipulate the system that you do not, and they use this power to funnel the profit of a GDP that has DOUBLED since 1970 to their coffers, while at the same time keeping our wages down as we serve them.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 12:39 AM
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swatmedic, it hasnt materialized because of the power of the health insurance industries, the pharmaceutical industries, and others like them. Money= power and they have massive amounts.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 12:39 AM
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Originally posted by gizmohd

Originally posted by k-string
reply to post by gizmohd
 


Okay, it's nice that your job provides medical, but the reality in the trenches is that most jobs DONT. And if you're working the kind of job that doesn't provide medical, I guarantee you can't afford private health insurance and still feed and house yourself.


And no... my job DOES NOT provide medical... it is something that I get ON MY OWN.... Because I know what I need to do in order to provide/protect my children... I am their first defense.. Not the Government.


What if you lose your job? Or forbid, something else happens that means that you are no longer their first defense?

The option of a government helping in such situation, even temporarily, is not a "socialist" ideal.

If the state cannot look after its own citizens in times of need, then the state has already failed them.

And best believe, not everyone is on an equal footing as everyone else.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 12:42 AM
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Originally posted by pexx421
gizmo, im sure youve seen those people driving the suv's but have you also completely missed those working minimum wage to care for themselves and their children, unable to take time to get an education and just getting more and more in debt each year?? What you dont realize is the REASON that most people must use credit for everything is that we live in a system that has been manipulated by those very rich you are defending, in order to keep their profits growing, while the wages they paid people stay the same. If wages had increased along with profits the way its supposed to, the minimum wage today would be 19.60 and the working class wouldnt be NEEDING the government to help them buy homes or cars or medicine. But the rich have a power to manipulate the system that you do not, and they use this power to funnel the profit of a GDP that has DOUBLED since 1970 to their coffers, while at the same time keeping our wages down as we serve them.


The minimum wage was NEVER intended to be a living wage.. the minimum wage is just that.. Minimum.. for those STUDENTS and entry level workers to use while enhancing his/her skills so as to move up.. no man/woman should every be content to earn minimum wage.. learn a skill take a class.. do something but stop expecting those that have to continue to finance lazy behavior...

Had the minumum wage's workers SKILLS increased the same percentage points as the profits, then yes.. their wages would increase accordingly...

It should be every man/woman and childs dream to one day be rich.. some people will, I probably will never be rich monetarily.. But i will be content know that I did my damnedest to get there...



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 12:43 AM
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i disagree gateway, there is no need for socialism to mean that everyone gets exactly the same. In many it means everyone gets enough to work towards your goals, and if you put in extra you can still get extra out of it. There are many forms of socialism just as there are many forms of democracy.
I think a soulless people work hardest out of selfishness, but that an enlightened or even EDUCATED peoples work hard from their own desire to create and to contribute. It is a basic tennet of maslow's hierarchy of needs that once the basic needs are met people seek out ways to help their community, and self actualization which leads to motivation from other than personal greed.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 12:44 AM
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It would be the very best thing that could ever happen the the US if a good system of socialist values were implemented. I might even consider coming back.

I truly wonder what you people are whinging about over there. You don't know the first thing about life under an honest system. You won't pay more tax under socialism than you do now. You just might see some results from it. With the money the government makes on its own, you shouldn't have to pay much in the way of taxes in any case. Have you ever wondered why you do?

I left the States over twenty years ago for a lot of reasons - all of them to do with the society there. The degree of selfishness there was unbearable. Unfortunately, that was exported by the media and greedy businessmen all over the planet since then. Now it has crept into my new homeland (bless their naive souls) and I've had to watch this society crumble into the same fetid filth I left way back there.

It would do you (Americans) a world of good to think about anything and anyone past the end of your own noses. You are not infants anymore. It's time to grow up and take responsibility for yourselves and your community. Take a good look at what you've become. It's not pretty.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 12:44 AM
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Originally posted by pexx421
swatmedic, it hasnt materialized because of the power of the health insurance industries, the pharmaceutical industries, and others like them. Money= power and they have massive amounts.


So if that is the case, then how is Obama going to overcome all that and give everyone healthcare?

EVERY President has tried, both Dem and Republican and couldnt make it work. If all these industries have a stranglehold on the system then how or who could ever break the system?

What makes Obama's plan different than Clintons? Is it to tax everyone until all they have IS health insurance?

What magical powers does he have that will bring down all these super-powerful industries that have all this money? The only way is to have MORE money and who is he going to get it from? I'll give you one guess.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 12:44 AM
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What if you lose your job? Or forbid, something else happens that means that you are no longer their first defense?

The option of a government helping in such situation, even temporarily, is not a "socialist" ideal.

If the state cannot look after its own citizens in times of need, then the state has already failed them.


I cant agree with you more.. But only on a TEMPORARY basis.. it is when a society becomes dependent on the state is when there is a problem... And the US is breeding a dependant society under it's current welfare system

[edit on 5-11-2008 by gizmohd]



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 12:44 AM
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reply to post by gizmohd
 


I would assume that you and I are about the same age. Within our lifetimes, we have watched the country in it's continual flushing into the sewers. This is nothing new, it is just contiueing along the same track. I feel the only thing that can bring around massive and very significant change is a global dissaster that affects every single person on the planet. Unfortunately this is how bad the human race has become. It really is a pitty since poverty, starvation, the power/fuel problem, and perhaps ALL war could stop quite literally over night. But those in power prevent this from happening for nothing more than control, money, and power.

"~Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely~"



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 12:50 AM
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Ok so i live in a town where the economy is completely tourism based. All jobs such as construction pay close to minimum wage, and they are by NO MEANS lazy jobs. I worked as a prep chef for a while, ran my A$$ off, and was paid minimum wage. Now I have a job that requires a bachelors degree, not much its true, but it starts at barely above minimum here, and tops out at 20k/year. Its not a lazy job either...i am attacked by patients, deal with serious personal trauma of my pt's daily. To add to this, the living cost here is atrocious... with the average rent of a 2 bedroom place being 1000/month, and car insurance on my rinkie dink 89 maxima being 300/month.
Now im not trying to cry about my situation, my point is that YOU dont know what situation everyone lives in. Im lucky, i can move to another town and make around 50k/year but for those here who are just poor (like me) but cant move, they are pretty much stuck. They can never earn enough to move, cant earn enough to get ahead, and good luck trying to work minimum or close wage, pay for a place to stay and utilities, and go to school. There are many people in situations like this, who with a little help could get ahead, but instead they are going to live out there lives here, stuck with in their mind, no options. A little bit of socialism could turn that around for a lot of people.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 12:53 AM
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swatmedic...i have already stated that obama will not be implementing socialized medicine. he never said he would, and his largest contributors were big business, so im sure hes in their pocket just like all the rest.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 12:56 AM
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Originally posted by pexx421
i disagree gateway, there is no need for socialism to mean that everyone gets exactly the same. In many it means everyone gets enough to work towards your goals, and if you put in extra you can still get extra out of it. There are many forms of socialism just as there are many forms of democracy.

Maybe so, but to deny that man has unlimited wants is naive. Would you not like to have a Porsche or a Ferrari, but we all can't since to make this vehicle is very costly and uses up a lot of resources. Shall we all have Ferraris?...well in a communist state we MAY all possibly have one....but is it wise that WE all have ferraris? Is this not a waste of resources? Well then...if you say that those that work a little harder in a socialist state can have the ferrari. Then I must respond to you that we all ready have a semi-system in place that can offer an individual that car if he so desires it. Yes, through hard work and sacrifice then sure he can buy it if he so wishes.

Under socialism no one gets the Ferrari or everyone gets the ferrari, and in either case it is bad, for society, not to mention the limited resource we have on this planet that it would take to fulfill this.





I think a soulless people work hardest out of selfishness, but that an enlightened or even EDUCATED peoples work hard from their own desire to create and to contribute. It is a basic tennet of maslow's hierarchy of needs that once the basic needs are met people seek out ways to help their community, and self actualization which leads to motivation from other than personal greed.
Not everyone works on this level, this assumes that every being on this planet thinks, and feels the same. This is an naive an unrealistic view of man. To deny that YOU or I have certain desires or wants is nonsense.

If my neighbor wants to work hard to the bone to buy a ferrari, than good for him. He may do this by opening a business, and in the act of being selfish he may even out-compete others by creating a cheaper good, and thus garnering himself a higher profit to then afford his ferrari, then all the better. Here he has provided a social good by giving you and I a better and cheaper product while at the same time he can buy his Ferrari. How personally rewarding will he be filled by buying a "Car"? I neither care nor should I judge this man. If he feels that a tangible item makes him feel better, well who am I to pass judgment.



[edit on 5-11-2008 by Gateway]



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 12:57 AM
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reply to post by pexx421
 


You are right everyones situation is different... and I was in the same boat.. I lived in a town in Florida for 10 yrs after i left the military.. I married/had children/divorced there.. gained employment/lost employment there and when it came down to it I struggled very hard to provide anything.. But I found work elsewhere and moved.. there wasnt a job for me in Florida, so I moved 500 miles away...

But nothing has changed for people over the past two centuries in the US... if there wasnt work/employoment available, you packed up and left to do something else.. thats just the way of American life.. if you decide to stay and wallow in misery when there is opportunity elsewhere... well thats your decision.. but no matter the decision, you have to take what it gives you.. either new wealth, or new heartache... or do nothing and just remain mediocre



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 12:58 AM
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reply to post by CosmicEgg
 


Big kudos man. I wish we had more people like you in the States to possibly fix this place but there's way too many greedy people here looking at their watches every minute of the day.

I think it's great that you had the cojones to leave this place and find a place where you could be happy. I really admire you for that. Hopefully I can find a place that isn't insane one day. I'm open to suggestions.





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