Originally posted by EyesWideShut Yeah... what ever happened to Ron Paul?...

The majority of Americans let his solid values go in favor of "the lesser of two evils.".... oh, well, some of us did not. Thank the gods for write in ballots that enables one to maintain a guilt free conscience

at the OP:

I think it's sad that you work 60 hours a week, meanwhile your kids grow up without knowing dad.

At least under Obama you won't have to work abusively long and you'll get to spend more time with your family.

Some people need to wake up and realize that time is infinitely worth more than money.

Fascism happens in a capitalist democracy due to the fact that massive accumulation of wealth in the hands of the few is disruptive to the democratic process. That wealth is then used BY the corporations to push legislation, just as is happening in the US today, to benefit those said corporations through monopolism, subsidies, etc. It IS the governments job to protect the people from threat and that includes the threat to their democracy posed by massive multibillion corporations manipulating laws, media, etc.

As to socialism, your "definitions" are based not on independent tennets of socialism, but obviously upon your ideology, and have nothing to do with the reality of socialism that has been effective in many other countries. In Alaska the oil industry has part of its profits nationalized to provide money to the citizens...this is a form of socialism. In venezuela, chavez is using income from the nationalized industries to provide education and healthcare to his people. This is socialism. The idea that there is no "profit" in socialism is flawed and exists in none of the current western european socialist democracies.

Originally posted by k-string
at the OP:

I think it's sad that you work 60 hours a week, meanwhile your kids grow up without knowing dad.

At least under Obama you won't have to work abusively long and you'll get to spend more time with your family.

Some people need to wake up and realize that time is infinitely worth more than money.

Apparantly you missed something... I no longer work 60hrs a week... I did that in order to gain a path to a career that I no longer had to work the long hours... No longer do I have to work the long hours to provide for my children and I spend time with them every day and have every weekend off too boot... but ONLY because of the Hard work that I poured into myself and not accepting a HANDOUT from the government... And just MAYBE you would explain just how having OBAMA as president my hours would magically get cut.. and my expenses magically decrease to boot???

further, apparently you group large government with leftist ideology, but the right has been growing government faster than anyone else! Further, Anarchism is a part of leftist ideology, and that is completely against large government. I think you are not quite correct in your assessment of left and right.

Sorry to Hijack the thread , we were going places with this. Lets try to get back on topic. Sorry OP

Originally posted by pexx421
further, apparently you group large government with leftist ideology, but the right has been growing government faster than anyone else! Further, Anarchism is a part of leftist ideology, and that is completely against large government. I think you are not quite correct in your assessment of left and right.

I will agree with you on this to a point.. I am and always will be a CONSERVATIVE.. not a republican, not a democrat.. but a conservative first and foremost... and Yes, the last THREE presidents have grown government exponentially... It goes back to my previous post that the overall size of government needs to be drastically shrunk, thus negating the NEED for excessive and punitive taxation on those that actually earn it...

Originally posted by pexx421
Fascism happens in a capitalist democracy due to the fact that massive accumulation of wealth in the hands of the few is disruptive to the democratic process. That wealth is then used BY the corporations to push legislation, just as is happening in the US today, to benefit those said corporations through monopolism, subsidies, etc. It IS the governments job to protect the people from threat and that includes the threat to their democracy posed by massive multibillion corporations manipulating laws, media, etc.

Do you know the difference between corporatism and capitalism?

Do you know what big government is? Since when is government conducive to capitalism? We have not....DO NOT have...have not been living in a Capitalist country, we have always had mercantilism bordering on fascism.

You are creating a straw man here if you are going to argue that the system we have in place is capitalism.

As to socialism, your "definitions" are based not on independent tennets of socialism, but obviously upon your ideology, and have nothing to do with the reality of socialism that has been effective in many other countries. In Alaska the oil industry has part of its profits nationalized to provide money to the citizens...this is a form of socialism.

Again, more straw man here's more proof that we DON'T live in a capitalist country.

In venezuela, chavez is using income from the nationalized industries to provide education and healthcare to his people. This is socialism. The idea that there is no "profit" in socialism is flawed and exists in none of the current western european socialist democracies.

There are gains, but the gains are kept 100% for the State. Since government has always been proven to be inefficient in EVERYTHING is it no wonder that even among these great social gains the LARGEST poverty resides in these political/economic systems.

Originally posted by whaaa
To borrow a phrase from the conservative talking points manual....

"America, Love it or Leave it"

God Bless America

The people have spoken!! What is it about a DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC that you don't understand?




[edit on 4-11-2008 by whaaa]

Ahhhhhhhhhhh........ that was nice very nice. I will be using this for a while.
I had to listen to it for years. Now i get to use it.

congratulations America!? You've just elected your first dictator and your last President. You stupid republicans took the American People for granted for eight years and this back lash of uncheckable proportions will destroy this nation. This is not just another election, this is not just another president, this is not just another democrat, this is the end of Free America forever. The hand Writing is on the wall and God has written it himself.

[edit on 5-11-2008 by Graystar]

Originally posted by Gateway

We have only to blame one man and his crew of fascist for leading us down this road towards socialism. Thank Bush and his band of merry Neocons for our problems...

The republicans need to purge ALL the NEOCONS from the conservative party and send them BACK TO THE DEMOCRATS, where they belong. Let this loss be a lesson to all the SO-CALLED "Conservatives" who support this type of BIG-GOVERNMENT conservatism.


TODAY is going to be a painful lesson indeed, for all of us!

[edit on 4-11-2008 by Gateway]

Well first off, President Bush is not a Fascist. I know some folks who lived through the Third Reich, so for you to lay forth such a claim seems truly insincere to me. I understand that you may not agree with President Bush on much, or even much of anything, but he is far from being a Fascist.

Second, I do agree with you however on the Conservatives needing to get away from the Big-Government Mentality. This is the complete antithesis of Reaganism, and is part of what lead towards the Democrat take over of both Houses.

Third, I also completely agree with you that Today IS going to prove to be a painful lesson indeed. I only hope that this lesson is no more severe than the Nomination of President Carter proved to be. Americans need to realize how horrible Socialism truly is. I have plenty of close acquaintances who lived through Socialist Regimes in South America, and they are horrified for this Nation right now. They told me: "Americans are so naive towards Socialism, because they have never had to truly experience it, and the horrors that can ensue through its many abuses". They also told me that all of the Rhetoric which Senator Obama used, gave them chills as it echoed EXACTLY what they heard in their Native Nations many years ago. What did Socialism lead to in those Nations? It lead to Civil Wars.

Originally posted by pexx421
further, apparently you group large government with leftist ideology, but the right has been growing government faster than anyone else! Further, Anarchism is a part of leftist ideology, and that is completely against large government. I think you are not quite correct in your assessment of left and right.

Kid, you have got to be kidding. Where did you get your education? You have it all backwards. Anarchy is the absence of a State, the further right you go the less and less government you have until you have anarchy. Which is zero state...

As a libertarian I would rather live under an anarchist state, which is closer to OUR views, rather than an ever growing state which is what the left has to offer.

Ah, i see, im sorry i though you were arguing from the point of view of america being democratic and capitalist. I agree its neither. My bad. However, i will disagree on your statement of all the gains being kept for the state, and these socialist countries having the largest poverty. Sweden, switzerland, Denmark, Norway, i believe are all forms of socialist democracies. They all have benefits given back to the people, free healthcare, free education, they also have less poverty and unemployment percapita than the US. Their standards of living are a bit higher, as are their life expectancies.

Originally posted by Gateway

Originally posted by pexx421
further, apparently you group large government with leftist ideology, but the right has been growing government faster than anyone else! Further, Anarchism is a part of leftist ideology, and that is completely against large government. I think you are not quite correct in your assessment of left and right.

Kid, you have got to be kidding. Where did you get your education? You have it all backwards. Anarchy is the absence of a State, the further right you go the less and less government you have until you have anarchy. Which is zero state...

As a libertarian I would rather live under an anarchist state, which is closer to OUR views, rather than an ever growing state which is what the left has to offer.

And if you want to get technical... a PURE DEMOCRACY IS ANARCHY... MOB RULES

I don't even know why we're arguing. All I see in this thread is poor sports mad about their candidate losing. We are finally going to join the ranks of the civilized country, with real health care coming hopefully soon.

I am mostly self educated, and it is difficult to pin down the left/right issue because EVERYONE has a different view of what they are supposed to be.