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posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 08:58 PM
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Originally posted by HIFIGUY
reply to post by DrumJunkie
 


Our Government buys 500 dollar hammers without your approval.
Our Government buys guns and bullets and bombs without your approval.
Our Government pays welfare and an assortment of assistance on a massive scale every day without your approval.

You make it sound like this is some kind of new thing lol.

Its a Republic. A representative Government that defends the Republic for which it stands.

Rather then guns and bullets and bombs, it appears that some of that money will go towards actually helping the American public in the form of tax breaks, health care, and social systems that help more of us then the trickle down theory that let the tree die and everyone that depended on it.

Caesar can do with the money what Caesar wants. Bush did it, and so will the current administration. You can write letters till your blue in the face, and just like the bail out, it didn't make one iota of difference.

The Government does as it sees fit and I for one, am applauding the change that is about to take place. A step in the right direction, and a lesson of compassion for those of selfish nature in America.

Peace


[edit on 9-11-2008 by HIFIGUY]


Ok..so where in your argument do you make it sound right to take form people without their consent? It's a good thing for people to want to be good people . But to make laws is not right. The Bible you are so fond of quoting will tel you that it's better to be a beggar than a thief. That's the bottom of it. Say what you want about this one and that one. All you are saying is people are greedy. So what? they are allowed. That makes them bad people. but to do the same thing is justice? No it isn't. I'm sorry but the whole idea of doing wrong in the name of right is still wrong. To condemn them you must condemn yourself and anyone that believes the same way.

There is no right way to do wrong. Stealing is stealing. Robin Hood while of noble ideals was still a theif.




posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 02:36 AM
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Why do so many people here think politics works? Conspiracy nubs.

Let me make it clear for some of these robots here. The white man Mc Cain and the brown man Obama have the same agenda, they just SAY different things. Doesn't matter who is elected. Too many irrelevant posts.

[edit on 10-11-2008 by lawlb0t]



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 06:13 AM
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reply to post by DrumJunkie
 



Originally posted by DrumJunkie
Ok..so where in your argument do you make it sound right to take from people without their consent?


Right here in the 16th amendment to the US constitution:


By 1913, 36 States had ratified the 16th Amendment to the Constitution. In October, Congress passed a new income tax law with rates beginning at 1 percent and rising to 7 percent for taxpayers with income in excess of $500,000.


Well, you may want to read about the history of taxation in the US and how it has been applied.


The state of the economy during the Great Depression led to passage of the Social Security Act in 1935. This law provided payments known as "unemployment compensation" to workers who lost their jobs. Other sections of the Act gave public aid to the aged, the needy, the handicapped, and to certain minors. These programs were financed by a 2 percent tax, one half of which was subtracted directly from an employee's paycheck and one half collected from employers on the employee's behalf. The tax was levied on the first $3,000 of the employee's salary or wage.


www.ustreas.gov...

Do you think the people of the time voted on that program I just listed above or the 16th amendment?

What you see is a history of acquiring revenue by the Republic. From fees and tariffs to federal income tax.

Peace


[edit on 10-11-2008 by HIFIGUY]



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 12:03 PM
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Originally posted by '___'eviant

Originally posted by Masterjaden

Originally posted by Barathrum
i'm not entirely sure that things will be as bad as some believe they will be

i'm also not convinced that things will be as great as others think

i'm of the mind that things will pretty well average out in the long run. presidents come and go, it's the country that is the most important and i don't think one man being elected to run it has ever caused it all to shatter into pieces.

ultimately, it is us who are in charge. it is us that will change this country for better or worse by choosing to allow ourselves to be distracted by what other people stand for and what other people do instead of becoming active in our own communities and involved in ways that make a real difference.

don't let who wins an election make you frown. that's giving someone else power over your perception and ultimately, over you. you are in charge of yourself as an individual and the decisions we all make individually are what truly determine the direction we as a collective take


You keep right on believing that brother. Then when they take away Americans rights to bear arms and to free speech and continue to erode the ability to peacably assemble and then take away the ability to even think negative thoughts about someone. They are set to take away the ability to succeed and be rewarded for that success.

Then when we are defenseless, speechless, hopeless and helpless, we'll see how you feel about it then, but of course by that time you'll have to get permission to tell us how you feel.

blissfull morons, the world is full of them and america is full of 53% of them.


So at the end of Obama's term(s), when you still have your guns, your ability to spew alarmist garbage, and to organize with your fellow alarmists in order to tell everyone how Obama is going to end America, will you retract your statements and admit you were dead wrong? I don't support Obama, I voted Libertarian, but seriously, you sound like a retard. You literally sound like you take Rush Limbaugh's show as a trustworthy news source.


I SOUND like a RETARD.. Laugh out loud.....

I'll be happy to have an IQ test off with you any time you want... since that is how retardation is measured.

I happen to have an IQ varying between 145 and 162, depending on the type of intelligence being measured. That's genius level in case you are not aware...

Trust Rush Limbaugh.... ha. I don't trust anyone but myself. I look around and measure what IS and determine the likely direction based on what ideals appear to be espoused by those who are about to run this country.

If you think that someone talking about spreading the wealth, (a Marxist ideal) and universal health care (horrible service everywhere it has been implemented causing death from lack of care in some instances) isn't going to try to implement other principles, like the government controlling everything, from free speech to freedom to bear arms etc..., then it is YOU my friend who is the retard.

In answer to your question, if there are no attempts by the liberals in congress and measures put forth by president elect Obama that try to infringe on one's right to freedom of religion, (remember that the government shall passs NO laws that infringe on the right to practice religion), attempt to pass no laws that infringe on the right to bear arms, and pass no laws that infringe on the right to peaceably assemble, remember that even the KKK and the black panthers have the right to demonstrate and voice their views.

If the four years pass without any attempts to initiate laws barring those rights, then I will come on and state that I was wrong, and brother, I pray that I am wrong every single day. I consider all people my brother, but I hope that I won't have to call you my brother in arms to protect the constitution.

Jaden



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 12:39 PM
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Originally posted by DraconianKing
God you republicans are like little children, the world is not going to end and America will not become USSA. Threads like these are so pathetic, get over yourselves. This is a republic, if you want to live in a dictatorship then shoot off to Alaska and form your own little neo-con wonderland. You won't be missed.

[edit on 5-11-2008 by DraconianKing]


First off, I'm not a republican, and this is not nor has it been for a while a democratic republic. It has been a socialist republic since the NEW DEAL. The problem I have is that if the policies that Obama and the liberals in congress want to implement will turn it into a full on Socialist regime without the rights of the people being implemented. This country will cease to be run by the people and will be run by the elite.

The neo cons are the same. I want some real conservative republicans to come back and restore our country to a democratic republic.

Jaden



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 12:52 PM
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Originally posted by daptodave
lol you guys really make me laugh.

I know Adam Smith talked about "self-interested parties" being an important factor in the operation of an economy... but this argument just takes self-interested to a new level.

I cant wait to see America start hunting communists again - will just prove a point.

Oh and by the way.... congratulations to Obama and all members of congress that got elected this time round, regardless of their party allegiances.

Dave


The McCarthy trials were not witch trials. The people who win get to write history and guess who won then?? The communists won. This has been a socialist republic since FDR and the "New Deal". They have gradually brought more and more socialist measures and expanded government more and more completely bankrupting this country. They pushed us further and further into debt both individually in a pyramid scheme to keep the GDP up and this is what has destroyed this country.

We can't continue to tax people, we have to suck it up and get rid of the debt by reducing government socialist programs and reducing all levels of government, including the miilitary.

We need to either get out of Iraq or make them pay for their own infrastructure rebuilding. Once the American public starts to pay off their debts and get some savings built up and are we get back to an economy that is not a false economy on the backs of debt, we will see the country start to recover.

If we continue on the tax and spend and borrow phiilosophy, then we will set ourselves up for destruction.



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 12:59 PM
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They want us to become soo weak that we don't have a choice but to become a globalist society. They would've already been able to except that other economies were so heavily dependent on the US economy that they fell as well.

Jaden



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 01:03 PM
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Originally posted by cogburn
Am I the only person that has posted in this thread that has read The Wealth of Nations?

It is a fundamental fact of government that some socialistic periods or programs are not only beneficial, but required, for the long-term growth and success of a capitalistic society.

Calling doom and gloom because the pendulum swings in the opposite direction is myopic at least and utterly ignorant at most.

[edit on 5-11-2008 by cogburn]


it's not a question of whether socialist policy is implemented, it;s a question of whether our Nation, the GREATEST Nation in the WORLD, will be fundamentally altered irretrieveably. There is the potential for it to be, and the people that now have almost total control over this country WANT it to. they want to take total control over the country and they are almost in a position to do just that.

That is the scary part. If not for our second amendment, we may have to stand by and let it happen to.

Jaden



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 01:10 PM
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Originally posted by Black_Fox
Well id first off like to thank everyone who helped elect Obama.
Thanks for getting out and voting.

Ok,I find it ammusing that some people seem to think they no the future.
They are so certain that Obama is going to be bad,and the country is going to fall apart,or the world is going to end.

How about this,give the guy a chance.
He has yet to do anything to harm this country.
I'll support him till he gives me just cause not to.

To already have a negative opinion of him is ignorant to say the least.
Theres a chance he is going to help America recover from 8 years of Bush's policies and mess ups.

And its no longer "Yes We Can",its now "Yes,We Did!"


I just don't get it. All of these Obama supporters keep saying that he is going to fix what Bush screwed up...

Do you guys realize that Bush's screwup were implementing Liberal policies???? like bigger government, more spending, nationalizing banking and other leftist policies.

Do you really think that Obama is going to stop doing what Bush did to screw this nation up???

Bush royally screwed us by getting AWAY from conservative policies. We need some truly conservative politicians. I am praying that in two years we will get some truly conservatives running for office and we can get away from the liberalism that has hosed up this nation.

We need to support limited central government, limited corporate business and maximized small business. We need to support our country and stop supporting countries who pay their workers practically nothing so that we can save a few bucks.

Jaden



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 01:38 PM
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Originally posted by mattguy404

Originally posted by cogburn
Am I the only person that has posted in this thread that has read The Wealth of Nations?

It is a fundamental fact of government that some socialistic periods or programs are not only beneficial, but required, for the long-term growth and success of a capitalistic society.

Calling doom and gloom because the pendulum swings in the opposite direction is myopic at least and utterly ignorant at most.

[edit on 5-11-2008 by cogburn]


It was not a FREE MARKET that caused this mess. It was greed inspired by increased capital inlfux caused by the industry being tricked into giving out loans that a free market would have never allowed to people who didn;t qualify. The greedy then realized by abuzing the system that they could make tons of short term money. That coupled with overblown prices caused by tons of people buying that wouldn't have normally been able to buy caused the mess that we are in.

In other words, it was socialized programs to allow people to own homes that had no business owning homes that created this mess, not free market economies.

Now, you think that allowing greater freedom of socialism will fix the issue.

That is laughable.

Jaden

Very well said.

We've had an era of ultra-capitalism where the free market had supreme reign, and it's failed miserably, ending in socialized corporate welfare.

Yet people still ended up losing their homes, health cover and so forth.

The world at the moment is choosing social democracy - not communism, not socialism, but aspects of both capitalism and wealth distribution.

No one is disputing hard work is the best way to succeed, and some of Obama's economic policies are even right of the British-right parties.



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 03:36 PM
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reply to post by gizmohd
 


there is a big difference between socialist capitalism like here in Europe and communism. We are not less capitalist than you are in the states but we have better social security and better healthcare. is that communism? Why are u Americans so afraid of your government interfering with economy? if they don't, you get companies controlling your government is that better?



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 04:00 PM
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reply to post by rikk7111
 


I couldn't agree more! We are in deep trouble and what can we do about it?


Peace,
Grandma



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 04:26 PM
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Originally posted by dave420
reply to post by gizmohd
 


Hahaha! This stuff is hilarious. You are acting like socialism is a bad thing. Check out the standards of living across the US and Europe, and notice the trend of the better places to live being distinctly socialist.

We all live in the same countries as our compatriots. We are all in this together. It only makes sense to try to elevate everyone's well-being, as it is a temporary measure which helps increase the quality of life for everyone in the long-run. Rich people got rich due to the society, and poor people often stay poor because of the same society. Fixing that imbalance by slightly dinging the rich people (the massively rich, not well-off folks) in order to help everyone (themselves included) makes perfect sense.

Of course there will always be greedy people trying to cling to every last penny they have, while somehow managing to scrape together enough cognitive dissonance to separate the notion of people's wealth and the society in which they won or lost it.

The US system clearly doesn't work, as it's far too easy for poor people to never get a chance to escape poverty, while the rich eat up more and more of the country's wealth to simply put in massive bank accounts that will never be touched for generations, by which time their kids would have been attacked by poor people simply trying to survive.

But I'm sure someone will chime in here screaming something about 'stealing mah monies' or 'poor people are poor because they want to be' or 'welfare-suckling gutter trash don't want to help themselves', etc. It always happens. Some people are just selfish.



Let's really look at it. Let's see.... Communoist Russia sometimes had lines to get bread at the grocery store that lasted 10 or 12 hours. Let's look at the living ocnditions in China huh???? It's amazing that with China switching to a partial market economy and becoming the fastest growing economy in the world it's just a coincidence. That doesn't change the fact that their living conditions are still piss poor and it's pathetic that you can look at the world and think that socialism and communism is good.

That;s just plain ridiculous. Socialism is good on paper, crazy to try to implement in reality.

Jaden



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 06:01 PM
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reply to post by rikk7111
 


In Hebrews 1:6....And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." Hebrews 2:5....."What is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you can for him? You made him a little lower than the angels"

Now, when Adam was created you must remember that God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, and the angels were all present at that time. That is why the scripture says We will make man in our own image.

Isaiah 1412"How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to earth, you who once laid low the nations! You who said in your heart, I will acend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God.' Isaiah 14:15"But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit."

Lucifer was created before Adam and Eve and it was his pride of being so beautiful and having charge of the throne of God that he forgot his place. We must remember the angles have free will. Lucifer was cast to earth where he is prowling around now to seek all the souls he can find.

Peace
Grandma



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 06:21 PM
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Originally posted by HIFIGUY
reply to post by DrumJunkie
 


Our Government buys 500 dollar hammers without your approval.
Our Government buys guns and bullets and bombs without your approval.
Our Government pays welfare and an assortment of assistance on a massive scale every day without your approval.

You make it sound like this is some kind of new thing lol.

Its a Republic. A representative Government that defends the Republic for which it stands.

Rather then guns and bullets and bombs, it appears that some of that money will go towards actually helping the American public in the form of tax breaks, health care, and social systems that help more of us then the trickle down theory that let the tree die and everyone that depended on it.

Caesar can do with the money what Caesar wants. Bush did it, and so will the current administration. You can write letters till your blue in the face, and just like the bail out, it didn't make one iota of difference.

The Government does as it sees fit and I for one, am applauding the change that is about to take place. A step in the right direction, and a lesson of compassion for those of selfish nature in America.

Peace


[edit on 9-11-2008 by HIFIGUY]


THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO "DO AS IT SEES FIT!!!!!!"

Don't yoju get it?????? They are required to act within the confines of the constitution and they haven't been.

Bush hasn't been. Clinton didn't, FDR defeinitely didn't.

and as it stands it looks like Obama ISN'T going to, and it is our responsibility as Americans to support and defend the constitution from those that would destroy or manipulate its tenets.

This government is by the people and for the people and the people are supposed to be in charge. It is up to us to make sure that they follow those tenets and manipulating the majority of the public to believe that what they do is in the best interests of those people cannot be allowed to continue if it means destroying the tenets of the document that gives that government power over the people.

What makes this nation great are those 10 guaranteed rights that those original documents give us and the rigths and responsibilities that the constitution gives to us and requires OF us.

Jaden



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 08:37 PM
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reply to post by Masterjaden
 



Originally posted by Masterjaden
THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO "DO AS IT SEES FIT!!!!!!"

Don't yoju get it?????? They are required to act within the confines of the constitution and they haven't been.

Bush hasn't been. Clinton didn't, FDR defeinitely didn't.


Well now, maybe my point finally got across to you.
There are the way things should be, and there are the way things are.

The simple fact is this. The Government has made amendments to obtain money from the people without a public vote in the past. Read up.


By 1913, 36 States had ratified the 16th Amendment to the Constitution. In October, Congress passed a new income tax law with rates beginning at 1 percent and rising to 7 percent for taxpayers with income in excess of $500,000.

www.ustreas.gov...

A simple case of the Republic acting within the confines of the constitution without your vote.

The one thing this election showed was that our system works.
We the people have heard Obama speak, and we have empowered him through an election.

Peace


[edit on 10-11-2008 by HIFIGUY]



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 09:12 PM
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reply to post by gizmohd
 


[sigh]...You can't be a fascist and a socialist at the same time. It's like a vegan who is also a meat lover. Fascists and socialists hate each other. The fear of socialism is what helped the Nazis gain power in Germany. Please suspend your ignorance.



posted on Nov, 11 2008 @ 01:03 AM
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They have the same intentions though, no? To enslave and control, just like any other political party right?



posted on Nov, 11 2008 @ 07:21 PM
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reply to post by mattguy404
 


Actually Bill Clinton did with the help of Phil Gramm in 1999.
If you just woke up , you better do better homework...

They're all working for the CFR and their bosses, the Banksters in a repeat of the attempt in 1934. Oh, you thought the Great Depression was an accident. Sorry.

Sorry to pop your bubble. WE do NOT have a TWO PARTY SYSTEM.

It's a ONE PARTY aristocracy, with an Plutocratic Oligarchy overseeing all of it.

The American people wrote and emailed and called DC up to 20,000 to one AGAINST the BAILOUT BILL. It was voted down.

Then the SENATE changed the language and added Billions more in pork belly earmarks, and VOTED on it. WAIT A MINUTE.... According to the Constitution, this isn't the Senates purview and never was.... so , how is it THEY voted on it?

Then the HOUSE gets threatened with Martial Law and passes it. RICO theft.
See Congressman Brad Sherman, Sherman Oaks, California.

Do you think THEY know we are STUPID yet?



posted on Nov, 11 2008 @ 08:32 PM
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reply to post by gizmohd
 


What can we do to join together in the real world? How can we organize and work to alter our political landscape while we still have time? Just because "they" don't believe in Liberty or Freedom or the Constitution doesn't relieve us of our responsibility to ACT. We must. Not for ourselves, or even for our children, but for Humanity!





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